Did Speculating Harm Or Kill Valiant Comics?

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xodacia81
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Post by xodacia81 »

StarBrand wrote:
xodacia81 wrote:
magnusrobot12 wrote:from my understanding, many of the speculators were sportscard vampires who destroyed their industry in the late 80's. Now that the sports card industry was in the toilet, they rolled onto the comic book industry like a pack of leper wolves. The sports card dealers all went out of buisness with their crap, and then, like lepers in a field of death, they marched onto the comic book industry, looking to make money for their pathetic lives. If it were only the comic book people speculating on comic books, then maybe valiant could have survived. But, the combination of comic book dealers + ex-sportscard dealers that flooded the market, was a recipe for disaster.
That was 90% of the problem, yeah :thumb:
I saw this first-hand myself. Let me tell you, many of the sports card dealers back then were loaded with cash, having made a killing for years when their hobby was going good.
I remember one of the LCS owners mentioning the "Card speculators" that were "in the market" and how he "feared" the long-term results. He tried to branch out into other things and wound up having several LEAN years. His shop is still around, but he's not. It's on the second owner since he sold it back in 2000. He now owns a donut shop, the other guy is homeless-went bankrupt trying to keep the shop afloat-and the new guy is a total idiot.

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Post by Unblessed »

xodacia81 wrote:
StarBrand wrote:
xodacia81 wrote:
magnusrobot12 wrote:from my understanding, many of the speculators were sportscard vampires who destroyed their industry in the late 80's. Now that the sports card industry was in the toilet, they rolled onto the comic book industry like a pack of leper wolves. The sports card dealers all went out of buisness with their crap, and then, like lepers in a field of death, they marched onto the comic book industry, looking to make money for their pathetic lives. If it were only the comic book people speculating on comic books, then maybe valiant could have survived. But, the combination of comic book dealers + ex-sportscard dealers that flooded the market, was a recipe for disaster.
That was 90% of the problem, yeah :thumb:
I saw this first-hand myself. Let me tell you, many of the sports card dealers back then were loaded with cash, having made a killing for years when their hobby was going good.
I remember one of the LCS owners mentioning the "Card speculators" that were "in the market" and how he "feared" the long-term results. He tried to branch out into other things and wound up having several LEAN years. His shop is still around, but he's not. It's on the second owner since he sold it back in 2000. He now owns a donut shop, the other guy is homeless-went bankrupt trying to keep the shop afloat-and the new guy is a total idiot.
Does the donut shop have good stuff?

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Post by Unblessed »

superman-prime wrote:on the other side speculating is bringing prices back up. do we hope DH does a great job yep , but there is a chance it will fail badly but either way solar and magnus prices are going up bigtime :thumb:

the other side of the coin :thumb:
F YOU!

I like prices down. Some of us haven't been hoarding long boxes of comics in anticipation for aother comic bubble. Some of us actually like collecting over making a profit.

:mad:

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Post by xodacia81 »

Unblessed wrote:
xodacia81 wrote:
StarBrand wrote:
xodacia81 wrote:
magnusrobot12 wrote:from my understanding, many of the speculators were sportscard vampires who destroyed their industry in the late 80's. Now that the sports card industry was in the toilet, they rolled onto the comic book industry like a pack of leper wolves. The sports card dealers all went out of buisness with their crap, and then, like lepers in a field of death, they marched onto the comic book industry, looking to make money for their pathetic lives. If it were only the comic book people speculating on comic books, then maybe valiant could have survived. But, the combination of comic book dealers + ex-sportscard dealers that flooded the market, was a recipe for disaster.
That was 90% of the problem, yeah :thumb:
I saw this first-hand myself. Let me tell you, many of the sports card dealers back then were loaded with cash, having made a killing for years when their hobby was going good.
I remember one of the LCS owners mentioning the "Card speculators" that were "in the market" and how he "feared" the long-term results. He tried to branch out into other things and wound up having several LEAN years. His shop is still around, but he's not. It's on the second owner since he sold it back in 2000. He now owns a donut shop, the other guy is homeless-went bankrupt trying to keep the shop afloat-and the new guy is a total idiot.
Does the donut shop have good stuff?
Yes indeed. Probably the second best shop in town and that's saying a LOT :thumb:

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Post by xodacia81 »

Unblessed wrote:
superman-prime wrote:on the other side speculating is bringing prices back up. do we hope DH does a great job yep , but there is a chance it will fail badly but either way solar and magnus prices are going up bigtime :thumb:

the other side of the coin :thumb:
F YOU!

I like prices down. Some of us haven't been hoarding long boxes of comics in anticipation for aother comic bubble. Some of us actually like collecting over making a profit.

:mad:
Ayup

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Post by superman-prime »

Valiant has been cheep for a decade and whats out there is it on old stuff everyone as DH gains popularity will want some old issues in not talking crazy prices but solar 10 at 20 will be no doubt look at harby 1 (which i only have 2 of) it went nuts just on the hope of a movie new comics will drive prices up thats not speculating thats fact, we have all had years to chase them down and we own the biggest chunk how many Valiants does everyone own here im betting a lot. and hoping a asset gains value is not a bad thing last time I looked

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Post by Second_Death »

Heath wrote: The speculators hurt them just like they hurt the rest of the market. But it was the change in quality that killed them.

Couldn't agree more. Along with that thought, you could add the dismissal of Jim Shooter from Valiant as his creative contributions were never replaced. Valiant lost it's creative soul after his departure.

I returned to comics after the publication of Solar #1 and left in '94 after the release of the June Valiant books so my familiarity of the industry at that time is limited but these are factors I recall that probably contributed to the fall of Valiant and the industry in general..........

--X-Men #1 (how many different covers?....a "harbinger" of things to come)
--speculation and excess supply (book stores left with new books they had to sell far below cost or even give away especially Valiants)
--trading cards (cards, cards on display, cards in bags, cards, cards, cards)
--the firing of Jim
--Superman ('nuff said)
--Image (printed a lot of crap early and the constant late released books.........a far cry from the level of quality they would later achieve)
--Deathmate (speaking of Image)
--small companies publishing junk that likely would not have been available under normal market conditions

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Post by magnusrobot12 »

Yep, the Death of Superman (#75) had a print run of 4 million copies. Still, superman was an icon and he never gets hurt. So, DC makes an issue where he dies. Its a big deal. Yet, out of nowhere, Turok #1 had a print run of 1.75 million. Turok #1? Huh? Who the F$ck is Turok? Well, of course i know who he is. The point is that a "new" character with no history to the american public (except to the old gold key fans) makes a comic with a print run of 1.75 million copies. Superman at least had an excuse...

Oh, greed and its wicked ways... :!:

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Post by magnusrobot12 »

Heath wrote: Valiant caught the attention of the speculators not because of triple gate-fold foil stamped covers polybagged with a trading card. They caught the attention of the speculators because of the quality of the content..
I'm sorry, but that is not true. Card dealers didnt read comic books. They had no respect for comic books. They saw folks selling Rai #3 for $75. They wanted to be a part of it. So, they figured Rai #12 woould also be worth $75 in a year. Trust me, card dealers did not care about quality. They only cared about making money to compensate for their failed sportscard industry that they themselves destroyed.

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Post by wrunow »

magnusrobot12 wrote:
Heath wrote: Valiant caught the attention of the speculators not because of triple gate-fold foil stamped covers polybagged with a trading card. They caught the attention of the speculators because of the quality of the content..
I'm sorry, but that is not true. Card dealers didnt read comic books. They had no respect for comic books. They saw folks selling Rai #3 for $75. They wanted to be a part of it. So, they figured Rai #12 woould also be worth $75 in a year. Trust me, card dealers did not care about quality. They only cared about making money to compensate for their failed sportscard industry that they themselves destroyed.
I remember when the card guys saw what a Harby 4 was going for right before the deadline to send in for the Pink and they were going crazy at the flea market that was sort of a weekly combined comic/card/junk show back in 90's around here. Thereafter I remember the card guys buying multiple quantities of the Unity crossover, sometimes in the hundreds of issues each.

But it wasn't just them. The guy that owned the local LCS that I went to was buying and storing away all the major titles for future backstock. I remember him packing away the McFarlane spidey books by the hundred.

Then came the fire.....and he was gone.

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Post by megatronthe3rd »

magnusrobot12 wrote:
Heath wrote: Valiant caught the attention of the speculators not because of triple gate-fold foil stamped covers polybagged with a trading card. They caught the attention of the speculators because of the quality of the content..
I'm sorry, but that is not true. Card dealers didnt read comic books. They had no respect for comic books. They saw folks selling Rai #3 for $75. They wanted to be a part of it. So, they figured Rai #12 woould also be worth $75 in a year. Trust me, card dealers did not care about quality. They only cared about making money to compensate for their failed sports card industry that they themselves destroyed.
In the 90's my LCS was always on the up and up.
If you reserved something he would hold it for you no matter the frenzy
(Death of Superman) comes to mind. I remember my boss then asking me if I could score him one. Never reading comics he didn't seem to realize it was on it's 3rd printing by that time.
Then I remember a local card store getting into comics.
The business model was, a new Valiant number 1? Ten bucks, and usually double and triple guide for any back issue.
The moral of this story? The comic store is still in business and the card store is not. However the comic shop has resorted to selling mostly flavor of the month "gaming" supplies and only orders comics if they are pre-ordered. Either way it was frustrating trying to keep up being a high school student and having to pick and choose. If you chose wrong 2-3 weeks later that Valiant you passed up would be costly!!!
Side note, I remember the Card Shop had a Supreme #1 framed on the wall. Not even signed but he informed me it was not for sale!
Ah to look back on the 90's!!!

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Post by dave »

Weren't all of the Supreme #1's marked Volume Two or something? I remember being baffled by that one back then.

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Post by superman-prime »

sups 75 did not help thats for sure

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Post by dave »

I think it brought in a few more people temporarily to the hobby, but then when 75 dropped in price and Supes was back, I think most of them left again.

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Post by megatronthe3rd »

dave wrote:Weren't all of the Supreme #1's marked Volume Two or something? I remember being baffled by that one back then.
Yeah I never got what that was about either?

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Post by StarBrand »

Unblessed wrote:
superman-prime wrote:on the other side speculating is bringing prices back up. do we hope DH does a great job yep , but there is a chance it will fail badly but either way solar and magnus prices are going up bigtime :thumb:

the other side of the coin :thumb:
F YOU!
Just a little harsh, brother.

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Post by Daniel Jackson »

StarBrand wrote:
Unblessed wrote:
superman-prime wrote:on the other side speculating is bringing prices back up. do we hope DH does a great job yep , but there is a chance it will fail badly but either way solar and magnus prices are going up bigtime :thumb:

the other side of the coin :thumb:
F YOU!
Just a little harsh, brother.
I'm pretty sure he's just kidding around with SP.

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Post by superman-prime »

what do you both think about prices in the near future harby one was a good example of huge speculation and nothing dh is releasing so it will have a effect and already has on solar 1 - 10

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Post by StarBrand »

superman-prime wrote:what do you both think about prices in the near future harby one was a good example of huge speculation and nothing dh is releasing so it will have a effect and already has on solar 1 - 10
What have you seen on Solar 1-10? Here's a thread to discuss it.

http://valiantfans.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30454

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Post by UnknownTales »

Man, with that language, just leave this board. That is totally uncalled for.

Grow up or get out.

Unblessed wrote:
superman-prime wrote:on the other side speculating is bringing prices back up. do we hope DH does a great job yep , but there is a chance it will fail badly but either way solar and magnus prices are going up bigtime :thumb:

the other side of the coin :thumb:
F YOU!

I like prices down. Some of us haven't been hoarding long boxes of comics in anticipation for aother comic bubble. Some of us actually like collecting over making a profit.

:mad:

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Post by Second_Death »

dave wrote:I think it brought in a few more people temporarily to the hobby, but then when 75 dropped in price and Supes was back, I think most of them left again.
Yes, that was my pretty much my train of thought as well.

Always felt that new readers/customers that DC brought to the hobby was mostly lost when they saw how publishers liked to jerk around it's fans. All of the good publicity from the Death of Superman promo was lost when the Reign of Men in Blue Underpants and the subsequent return of Superman were handled so poorly. DC certainly made good money during this time but I think DC, and the industry in general, would have benefited long term from his return being postponed for another year or even two. Between the amount of crap being published, speculation, and the too soon return of Superman, the industry lost so much of its credibility with the general public in a very short period of time.

Have also had way too much coffee today so probably don't know what the h@ll I'm typing anyway. :kidaround:

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Post by Drift »

Yeah man *SQUEE* or GTFO.
UnknownTales wrote:Man, with that language, just leave this board. That is totally uncalled for.

Grow up or get out.

Unblessed wrote:
superman-prime wrote:on the other side speculating is bringing prices back up. do we hope DH does a great job yep , but there is a chance it will fail badly but either way solar and magnus prices are going up bigtime :thumb:

the other side of the coin :thumb:
F YOU!

I like prices down. Some of us haven't been hoarding long boxes of comics in anticipation for aother comic bubble. Some of us actually like collecting over making a profit.

:mad:

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Post by slym2none »

UnknownTales wrote:Man, with that language, just leave this board. That is totally uncalled for.
If you don't like what he's saying, there is always the 'ignore' button. If you can't do that, maybe you should be the one to leave.



-slym

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Post by magnusrobot12 »

UnknownTales wrote:Man, with that language, just leave this board. That is totally uncalled for.

Grow up or get out.

Unblessed wrote:
superman-prime wrote:on the other side speculating is bringing prices back up. do we hope DH does a great job yep , but there is a chance it will fail badly but either way solar and magnus prices are going up bigtime :thumb:

the other side of the coin :thumb:
F YOU!

I like prices down. Some of us haven't been hoarding long boxes of comics in anticipation for aother comic bubble. Some of us actually like collecting over making a profit.

:mad:
slym2none wrote:
UnknownTales wrote:Man, with that language, just leave this board. That is totally uncalled for.
If you don't like what he's saying, there is always the 'ignore' button. If you can't do that, maybe you should be the one to leave.



-slym
i think i've just witnessed my first fight at VF.com
:D

its hard to take Cartman's Frog Puppet seriously. when i first read Unblessed statement, no one seemed to notice indicating that he was just kidding. but, i'm a newbie so what the hell do I know?
:?

however, i have noticed that Unblessed comments tend to be a little contentious, but i find it funny because all i notice is Cartman's Frog Puppet making the statement.
:lol:

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Post by PhoneyBone »

Someone today picked up my bound copy of Magnus Robot Fighters and the first thing they said was, "Why is this dude wearing go-go boots?" It's that lack of caring about making characters look cool that sunk them. Comics have a huge cool-factor and between Harbinger where everyone wore t-shirts and jeans to HARD Corps where everyone was in the same plain red coveralls, valiant just got an F in that category.

I can spend all day pointing to comics with great writing that failed to sell after 2 years. And to the opposite I can walk into any comic book store and point out that the longest selling comics have had way more bad writing than good. But they are based on characters that look bad a$$.


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