Did Speculating Harm Or Kill Valiant Comics?

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Did Speculating Harm Or Kill Valiant Comics?

Post by StarBrand »

Did Speculating Harm Or Kill Valiant Comics? If answering in the affirmative, please explain in detail how this happened. Thanks.

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Post by tmcneil82 »

I think it helped at first, then hurt it. I really don't think the sales would have been nearly as high if speculators didn't jump on (obviously). But I think sales remained high after the speculators jumped ship, around the time when Shooter left the company, and they would not have done so if the speculators didn't drive the price and demand up in the first place. IF valiant was worried about decent stories still at this point, I think the speculative bubble would have been tremendously beneficial to them.

And of course speculating had a hand in killing Valiant. But any hobby or collectible will have speculators. It's important for the people manufacturing the goods to not also get caught up in it, which I believe is what happened. There has been speculation in sports cards since nearly the beginning, and they have had their ups and downs. And the companies that are over gimmicky pay the price every time the bubble pops. Valiant happened to turn into one of those companies by the time it popped.

Still, without it, I don't think Valiant would have gotten the exposure that it did, and probably half of us or better would not be a member of this board.

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Post by Heath »

It harmed them. What killed them was the drastic decrease in quality. Abandoning the "house style." Forgetting the tight continuity. Bringing in big name talent that took the properties too far away from their original framework. Giffen with Magnus, Jurgens with Solar, Sears with X-O, for example. Not to mention the utter crap with stuff like the later H.A.R.D. Corps, Psi-Lords, etc.

The speculators hurt them just like they hurt the rest of the market. But it was the change in quality that killed them.

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Post by Daniel Jackson »

I would have to agree with Heath, the quality factor was the biggest contributor to their downfall.

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Post by slym2none »

Heath wrote:It harmed them. What killed them was the drastic decrease in quality. Abandoning the "house style." Forgetting the tight continuity. Bringing in big name talent that took the properties too far away from their original framework. Giffen with Magnus, Jurgens with Solar, Sears with X-O, for example. Not to mention the utter crap with stuff like the later H.A.R.D. Corps, Psi-Lords, etc.

The speculators hurt them just like they hurt the rest of the market. But it was the change in quality that killed them.
100% agreed!

:clap:



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Post by greg »

Four Fake Supermen killed Valiant.

Not really... but sorta.

Turok #1 sold 1,750,000 copies... almost double the next highest Valiant book.

We joke about how Turok #1 is so common we could use them as insulation in houses,
but the thing to remember is that Turok #1 was 5th in sales the month it came out.

The books that outsold Turok #1 that month were the four "Reign of the Supermen" books (Cyborg, Steel, Superboy, Alien).

Those were the straws that broke the industry's back.

Valiant wasn't innocent, but it was a victim.

The insanely speculating industry that demanded millions of copies of "Superboy" was an industry that couldn't possibly survive.

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Post by X-O HoboJoe »

Heath wrote:But it was the change in quality that killed them.

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Post by dellamorte »

Heath wrote:It harmed them. What killed them was the drastic decrease in quality. Abandoning the "house style." Forgetting the tight continuity. Bringing in big name talent that took the properties too far away from their original framework. Giffen with Magnus, Jurgens with Solar, Sears with X-O, for example. Not to mention the utter crap with stuff like the later H.A.R.D. Corps, Psi-Lords, etc.

The speculators hurt them just like they hurt the rest of the market. But it was the change in quality that killed them.
I could not agree more. Great post.

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Post by xodacia81 »

Very good posts by Heath, who was spot on, and Greg, who makes a good comparative sales post. I will always have a special place in my heart for the Reign story, as I feel everything from the "death" story through the "Fall of Metropolis" was the best stuff I've ever read in Superman books. I just wish that ALL the books still had the magic that was early Valiant(91-93) and 92-94 Supermen books/GL/GA.

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Post by megatronthe3rd »

Good thread, very interesting

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Post by IanAlexavier »

greg wrote:Four Fake Supermen killed Valiant.

Not really... but sorta.

Turok #1 sold 1,750,000 copies... almost double the next highest Valiant book.

We joke about how Turok #1 is so common we could use them as insulation in houses,
but the thing to remember is that Turok #1 was 5th in sales the month it came out.

The books that outsold Turok #1 that month were the four "Reign of the Supermen" books (Cyborg, Steel, Superboy, Alien).

Those were the straws that broke the industry's back.

Valiant wasn't innocent, but it was a victim.

The insanely speculating industry that demanded millions of copies of "Superboy" was an industry that couldn't possibly survive.
Im tired and must be missing something... what did VALIANT do with all the cash from the #5 book in sales that month??? We have titles that dont produce NEAR that now.. and those titles and companies are still cruising along? Not sure.. help a tired man out... :?

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Post by Unblessed »

IanAlexavier wrote:
greg wrote:Four Fake Supermen killed Valiant.

Not really... but sorta.

Turok #1 sold 1,750,000 copies... almost double the next highest Valiant book.

We joke about how Turok #1 is so common we could use them as insulation in houses,
but the thing to remember is that Turok #1 was 5th in sales the month it came out.

The books that outsold Turok #1 that month were the four "Reign of the Supermen" books (Cyborg, Steel, Superboy, Alien).

Those were the straws that broke the industry's back.

Valiant wasn't innocent, but it was a victim.

The insanely speculating industry that demanded millions of copies of "Superboy" was an industry that couldn't possibly survive.
Im tired and must be missing something... what did VALIANT do with all the cash from the #5 book in sales that month??? We have titles that dont produce NEAR that now.. and those titles and companies are still cruising along? Not sure.. help a tired man out... :?
Bob L got a new hair do. :P :D

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Post by IanAlexavier »

Heath wrote:It harmed them. What killed them was the drastic decrease in quality. Abandoning the "house style." Forgetting the tight continuity. Bringing in big name talent that took the properties too far away from their original framework. Giffen with Magnus, Jurgens with Solar, Sears with X-O, for example. Not to mention the utter crap with stuff like the later H.A.R.D. Corps, Psi-Lords, etc.

The speculators hurt them just like they hurt the rest of the market. But it was the change in quality that killed them.
Ayup!

Too many titles too fast, abandoning what was working.. that too.

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Post by superman-prime »

Heath hit it it went to crap and so did the sales

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Post by Drift »

Heath wrote:It harmed them. What killed them was the drastic decrease in quality. Abandoning the "house style." Forgetting the tight continuity. Bringing in big name talent that took the properties too far away from their original framework. Giffen with Magnus, Jurgens with Solar, Sears with X-O, for example. Not to mention the utter crap with stuff like the later H.A.R.D. Corps, Psi-Lords, etc.

The speculators hurt them just like they hurt the rest of the market. But it was the change in quality that killed them.
The change in quality was an indirect result of the speculator boom though. If it weren't for the nonsense that was going on the others in charge would never have pushed Jim as hard as they did to squeeze more cash out. There never would have been the disagreement and Jim wouldn't have been forced out. Jim would still have overseen things and the quality would have remained high. Half the *SQUEE* they pulled would never have happened had Jim still been there as he had a genuine love for what he was doing and wanted to see it grow naturally.

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Post by StarBrand »

I do want to say there was a single comic book speculator early on who greatly helped Valiant Comics get going, and perhaps even survive their first couple years. This speculator bought quantities of early Valiants and did a fantastic job promoting Valiant Comics to comic fandom in general and his large customer base in particular. This single speculator was Greg Buls of Kingpin Comics.
Buls was bullish on Valiant Comics almost from the get-go, having observed the quality of early Valiants and believing in what Valiant was doing. He began ordering quantities of the books early on, and doing a tremendous job promoting them to others. I really can't speak to how many copies of Valiants he was buying before Unity, though I do know his speculating on Valiant pre-unity was a financial boon to him. I can say for certain someone at Valiant was very aware of Buls, and likely at least several of Valiant's key personnel were aware of him and what he was doing to help them from a cash flow and advertising position.
Buls' relationship with Valiant was such that one or more sources at Valiant would tell Buls when a key development was going to happen in one of their issues, and get this inside info to Buls in time for him to bump his orders tremendously. I'm not certain at what point Buls began receiving these inside tips from Valiant, or who the tips were coming from. I know this to be true first-hand, though. Along with Buls, his good friend Jay (last name?), who was the President of Kingpin Comics, and also at least one of Kingpin's top salesmen were definately aware of the inside tips from Valiant. As far as how many other Kingpin employees were aware of these tips I don't know, but I presume not many were, as there was concern the word on these tips didn't get out lest Valiant stopped giving said tips to Kingpin.
I'm not sure when the source(s?) at Valiant began giving Buls these tips. I do know at one point that when Buls received such a tip he would order over 20,000 copies of the book he had the inside info on. This was before the speculator boom, and I'm sure Valiant was giving Buls these tips because they needed the money and advertising he was bringing them. It may have been a thank-you as well to Buls for the crucial support he gave Valiant almost from the beginning, I'm not sure. As we all know, Valiant was hurting for cash early on, and at least one speculator, the biggest Valiant speculator of all, Greg Buls, greatly helped Valiant keep going early on with the size of his orders and the job he did marketing Valiant to comic book fans.

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Post by megatronthe3rd »

StarBrand wrote:I do want to say there was a single comic book speculator early on who greatly helped Valiant Comics get going, and perhaps even survive their first couple years. This speculator bought quantities of early Valiants and did a fantastic job promoting Valiant Comics to comic fandom in general and his large customer base in particular. This single speculator was Greg Buls of Kingpin Comics.
Buls was bullish on Valiant Comics almost from the get-go, having observed the quality of early Valiants and believing in what Valiant was doing. He began ordering quantities of the books early on, and doing a tremendous job promoting them to others. I really can't speak to how many copies of Valiants he was buying before Unity, though I do know his speculating on Valiant pre-unity was a financial boon to him. I can say for certain someone at Valiant was very aware of Buls, and likely at least several of Valiant's key personnel were aware of him and what he was doing to help them from a cash flow and advertising position.
Buls' relationship with Valiant was such that one or more sources at Valiant would tell Buls when a key development was going to happen in one of their issues, and get this inside info to Buls in time for him to bump his orders tremendously. I'm not certain at what point Buls began receiving these inside tips from Valiant, or who the tips were coming from. I know this to be true first-hand, though. Along with Buls, his good friend Jay (last name?), who was the President of Kingpin Comics, and also at least one of Kingpin's top salesmen were definately aware of the inside tips from Valiant. As far as how many other Kingpin employees were aware of these tips I don't know, but I presume not many were, as there was concern the word on these tips didn't get out lest Valiant stopped giving said tips to Kingpin.
I'm not sure when the source(s?) at Valiant began giving Buls these tips. I do know at one point that when Buls received such a tip he would order over 20,000 copies of the book he had the inside info on. This was before the speculator boom, and I'm sure Valiant was giving Buls these tips because they needed the money and advertising he was bringing them. It may have been a thank-you as well to Buls for the crucial support he gave Valiant almost from the beginning, I'm not sure. As we all know, Valiant was hurting for cash early on, and at least one speculator, the biggest Valiant speculator of all, Greg Buls, greatly helped Valiant keep going early on with the size of his orders and the job he did marketing Valiant to comic book fans.
Holy Cow!

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Post by Cyberstrike »

IanAlexavier wrote:
Heath wrote:It harmed them. What killed them was the drastic decrease in quality. Abandoning the "house style." Forgetting the tight continuity. Bringing in big name talent that took the properties too far away from their original framework. Giffen with Magnus, Jurgens with Solar, Sears with X-O, for example. Not to mention the utter crap with stuff like the later H.A.R.D. Corps, Psi-Lords, etc.

The speculators hurt them just like they hurt the rest of the market. But it was the change in quality that killed them.
Ayup!

Too many titles too fast, abandoning what was working.. that too.
QUOTED FOR TRUTH!

Post-Unity Valiant didn't expand their line they exploded it. Characters and concepts that might haved worked were given one or two apperences in an established title (like HARD Corps, Armorines,, and PSI-Lords) and boom they get an ongoing series, instead of giving them a mini-series to see if these characters or concept could work in ongoing series.

Some concepts just aren't meant for an ongoing series and some Valiant titles might have done better being done in the occasional one-shots, mini-series, or maxi-series. There is nothing worse to me than buying an ongoing series that only lasts 12 issues and then the company says "well we always meant for it to be a maxi-series." :!:

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Post by Zaphod »

Speculating saved Valiant, greed killed it.

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Post by jridd28 »

Massarsky's greed killed it. Massarsky was a slimey lawyer whose sole intention was to play shooter like a violin and give the shareholders what they wanted. $$$$$ it was quick cash in the eyes of massarsky. from what i've read he was the biggest speculator out there.

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Post by jridd28 »

and yes the ousting of shooter led to the dimise in quality in the books. there is some good reading after Unity but by the time The Chaos Effect went by everything in the Valiant Universe was complete *SQUEE*!!!!

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Post by IanAlexavier »

Cyberstrike wrote:
IanAlexavier wrote:
Heath wrote:It harmed them. What killed them was the drastic decrease in quality. Abandoning the "house style." Forgetting the tight continuity. Bringing in big name talent that took the properties too far away from their original framework. Giffen with Magnus, Jurgens with Solar, Sears with X-O, for example. Not to mention the utter crap with stuff like the later H.A.R.D. Corps, Psi-Lords, etc.

The speculators hurt them just like they hurt the rest of the market. But it was the change in quality that killed them.
Ayup!

Too many titles too fast, abandoning what was working.. that too.
QUOTED FOR TRUTH!

Post-Unity Valiant didn't expand their line they exploded it. Characters and concepts that might haved worked were given one or two apperences in an established title (like HARD Corps, Armorines,, and PSI-Lords) and boom they get an ongoing series, instead of giving them a mini-series to see if these characters or concept could work in ongoing series.

Some concepts just aren't meant for an ongoing series and some Valiant titles might have done better being done in the occasional one-shots, mini-series, or maxi-series. There is nothing worse to me than buying an ongoing series that only lasts 12 issues and then the company says "well we always meant for it to be a maxi-series." :!:
Yessir! :!:

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Post by IanAlexavier »

jridd28 wrote:Massarsky's greed killed it. Massarsky was a slimey lawyer whose sole intention was to play shooter like a violin and give the shareholders what they wanted. $$$$$ it was quick cash in the eyes of massarsky. from what i've read he was the biggest speculator out there.

The shareholders should have been a bit more patient and they would have had a gold mine!!

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Post by Lightning Strike »

Heath wrote:It harmed them.
Absolutely. I remember a friend of mine who was running a comic shop at a card store and he bought hundreds of copies of issues like Turok #1. The owner of the store got stuck with thousands of comics and ended up dumping them for pennies.

Stuff like that really drove away store owners and eventually speculators killed Valiant.

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Post by dave »

I totally see what you're saying burt it was the enthusiasm of the speculators in the first place that helped V gain such a large market share in the first place. Back issues were in huge demand and helped to create the goose that was laying golden eggs. Then, the powers that be killed the goose, just like in the fairy tale.


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