Thinking about what books will matter to Valiant 2012...

greg · Post by **greg** » Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:32:03 pm

When I think about possible Valiant 2012 storylines...
and thinking about Valiant 1991-1996 comics that might contain important "core concepts"...
it makes me realize that Magnus #5 is probably more important story-wise than Magnus #12.
That's not to say it should be more valuable, only that Magnus #5 is the first appearance of Rai...
while the first Valiant appearance of Turok in Magnus #12 won't matter in Valiant 2012 storylines.
Magnus #1 might even pale in comparison to Magnus #5.

As far as shifting importance goes...
Solar #1 might not be as important as Solar #3 (first Toyo Harada, Harbinger Foundation).

Magnus #6 has the first Spider-Aliens.
Magnus #7 has the first X-O armor.

Magnus #5,#6,#7 and Solar #3 might be the oldest original Valiant (1991) books
with characters who are important for Valiant 2012.

Solar #10 remains important as the first appearance of the Eternal Warrior and Geomancers.

While X-O Manowar #1 will always be important, the next most important issue in that title
could be X-O Manowar #4 (an early X-O Manowar issue, early Harbinger kids with Toyo Harada, first Jack Boniface / Shadowman).
Those could be three or four of the Valiant 2012 most important characters,
all together in a 20-year old pre-Unity book.

Traditionally important books like Harbinger #1 and Harbinger #0 Pink will remain important... no surprises there.

Eternal Warrior #4, while being a brief first appearance of Bloodshot, is also the first appearance of the Immortal Enemy.
Perhaps the Immortal Enemy will be important in Valiant 2012.

Rai #0, which is clearly being referenced by the new ValiantEntertainment.com homepage,
may contain lots of core concepts important to Valiant 2012,
and already contains the first full appearance of Bloodshot.

Bloodshot #6, despite having a huge print run, will always be the first Ninjak.
Shadowman #8 has the first Master Darque "in the shadows", and Eternal Warrior #6 reveals him on the cover.

Archer & Armstrong's first appearance is in #0 and there are only 5,000 copies of the Gold variant.

Are these the books that will be key to Valiant 2012 and beyond?

While this may appear to be a speculation discussion,
it's not likely that Valiant issues with large print runs
will ever be significantly more valuable than cover price,
regardless of the importance to Valiant 2012.

I'm anxious to see what Valiant 2012 keeps as important
from the original Valiant (and possibly Acclaim) books.

dhudson1 · Post by **dhudson1** » Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:10:42 pm

I would love to see VEI take some post-unity point in time and consider the comics thereafter not part of canon. They will really not need the GK characters to pull that off, and it could be a continuation of what went before.

greg · Post by **greg** » Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:19:01 pm

dhudson1 wrote:I would love to see VEI take some post-unity point in time and consider the comics thereafter not part of canon. They will really not need the GK characters to pull that off, and it could be a continuation of what went before.

That's true, but if Unity is canon, then Magnus, Solar, and Turok exist
but don't ever interact with any of the characters of the Valiant 2012 universe.
Seems strange that they would all disappear...
Then again, Magnus is in the year 4000-something,
Turok could be anywhere or nowhere (the Lost Land),
and Solar has disappeared for long periods of time before.

dhudson1 · Post by **dhudson1** » Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:47:09 pm

greg wrote:
dhudson1 wrote:I would love to see VEI take some post-unity point in time and consider the comics thereafter not part of canon. They will really not need the GK characters to pull that off, and it could be a continuation of what went before.
That's true, but if Unity is canon, then Magnus, Solar, and Turok exist
but don't ever interact with any of the characters of the Valiant 2012 universe.
Seems strange that they would all disappear...
Then again, Magnus is in the year 4000-something,
Turok could be anywhere or nowhere (the Lost Land),
and Solar has disappeared for long periods of time before.

Exactly

jedimarley · Post by **jedimarley** » Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:58:45 pm

Archer & Armstrong's first appearance is in #0

Holy Hoard Batman! Those 350 issues I have might be worth something?!

greg · Post by **greg** » Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:07:22 pm

jedimarley wrote:
Archer & Armstrong's first appearance is in #0
Holy Hoard Batman! Those 350 issues I have might be worth something?!

Especially if you can get a convincing gold foil applied in the price box area.

superman-prime · Post by **superman-prime** » Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:45:43 pm

daqng i only have 120 of those babys

iggy101us · Post by **iggy101us** » Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:21:28 pm

It would be interesting to see how VEI treats the GK characters since they've all appeared in the HCs.

Jersen · Post by **Jersen** » Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:55:38 pm

I'm really interested to see how the Valiant 2012 Universe is handled. It seems like it would be very difficult and overly complicated to take a sort of "pick up where we left off" type of approach, even if it were picking some arbitrary point in continuity and starting from there, ignoring everything in the original Valiant Universe that came after that point.

I think it would be a much better idea to make a fresh start with the properties that they still own, which would not only make this relaunch very new-reader-friendly, but will afford the publisher the opportunity to incorporate or ignore different aspects/issues that they feel will make their books and continuity as strong as possible (One example might be to actually have Sting as a homosexual this time around, or to tie Ivar more seamlessly into Gilad and Aram's family history--I've always thought that he was one of the most ham-fisted retcons in EARLY Valiant).

It seems like VEI recognizes the strong potential they have with their properties--even in the absence of the GK3--and I can see massive possibilities for a continuity that is just as strong as Shooter's tenure that is built more on the immortal brothers, Harbinger/H.A.R.D.Corps, X-O, and Bloodshot/Rai instead of Magnus and Solar.

I also think that it speaks to the strength of Valiant's original properties that the three headline villains of Valiant--Harada, Master Darque, and the Spider Aliens--did not rely on any of the GK properties to work.

wrunow · Post by **wrunow** » Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:58:28 pm

iggy101us wrote:It would be interesting to see how VEI treats the GK characters since they've all appeared in the HCs.

They weren't in any of the new stories though, I would think the thing to do is to "reboot" and just not have the GK characters. Although it would be nice to have Phil, who I think they could use as long as he's not Solar.

Elveen · Post by **Elveen** » Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:02:15 pm

I don't see them using the GK dudes. Maybe a veiled reference to them, but in the new stories.... not so much.

greg · Post by **greg** » Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:33:32 pm

Jersen wrote:I think it would be a much better idea to make a fresh start with the properties that they still own, which would not only make this relaunch very new-reader-friendly, but will afford the publisher the opportunity to incorporate or ignore different aspects/issues that they feel will make their books and continuity as strong as possible

Definitely the way to go.
Continuity to anything 1996 or earlier would be a 16 year gap in 2012.

There's no need to make any of the old Valiant material required reading for the new Valiant universe...
but it's likely that the similarities between old and new Valiant will be unmistakable.
Much like the Rai #0-inspired artwork on the website, it will be obvious to Valiant fans what they've kept
and what they've changed, while being at least half a generation since the last published works.

Marvel's Ultimate line (developed under Cuneo) was kind of strange because the originals were still being published.
Valiant doesn't have to worry about keeping Amazing Shadowman going while Ultimate Shadowman is starting.
(Marvel pulled it off, somehow, but they had two different Spider-men at the same time, same name, different histories.)
There will be only one Shadowman title, and Shadowman will be all-new...
even if his name is Jack Boniface and he becomes Shadowman in 2012.

It's not like Marvel put Peter Parker in 1962 when they made Ultimate Spider-man or the first movie.
It was 2002... and Spider-man had a new (but very familiar) origin... 40 years after the first one.

sanman · Post by **sanman** » Sun Jun 05, 2011 10:06:35 pm

This is a very interesting thread. I’ve been thinking about this some—especially when it was clear that DH and not Valiant was going to publish the Gold Key characters.
The books Greg pointed out in the first post are the ones I’ve been considering acquiring more copies of.

Now as far as the new line incorporating or ignoring different aspects, I’m not sure that’s all that important. The books Greg listed are still key issues that will likely be touched upon in some way. Hence, regardless if these remain required reading, these will likely be the ones that readers will want to read and/or own. By way of example, despite the DCU’s multivers and many Crisis events, key books have maintained collector interest and/or value. Similarly, when other aspects have been re-envisioned, such as the Zur-En-Arrh Batman, the value of the earlier books (both financially and conceptually) has been positively reappraised.

Blood of Heroes · Post by **Blood of Heroes** » Sun Jun 05, 2011 10:08:54 pm

greg wrote: Rai #0, which is clearly being referenced by the new ValiantEntertainment.com homepage,
may contain lots of core concepts important to Valiant 2012,
and already contains the first full appearance of Bloodshot.

You trying to pick a fight?

wrunow · Post by **wrunow** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:48:37 am

Blood of Heroes wrote:
greg wrote: Rai #0, which is clearly being referenced by the new ValiantEntertainment.com homepage,
may contain lots of core concepts important to Valiant 2012,
and already contains the first full appearance of Bloodshot.
You trying to pick a fight?

Since they referenced the Rai 0 look as the background of their new logo from the beginning, I guess those characters were always meant to be important parts of the new universe, as they should.

Heath · Post by **Heath** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:50:20 am

I love the Rai #0 reference on the home page right now. And, it's appears from the silhouette that Bloodshot has been redesigned (but I still expect he'll maintain the core features of the character). While it's a stretch, to me this implies a reboot of the universe. I think Greg's comparison to the Ultimate Marvel line is going to be pretty accurate. Maybe this will be Ultimate Valiant.

There was a time I would have been very disappointed with a total reboot. But now, I think it would be the best route to take. And as long as they turn Bob Hall loose on Shadowman, I'll be totally pleased!

iggy101us · Post by **iggy101us** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:20:51 am

Marvel-lite! Marvel-lite! Make mine Marvel!

Daniel Jackson · Post by **Daniel Jackson** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:54:40 am

Heath wrote:I love the Rai #0 reference on the home page right now. And, it's appears from the silhouette that Bloodshot has been redesigned (but I still expect he'll maintain the core features of the character). While it's a stretch, to me this implies a reboot of the universe. I think Greg's comparison to the Ultimate Marvel line is going to be pretty accurate. Maybe this will be Ultimate Valiant.

There was a time I would have been very disappointed with a total reboot. But now, I think it would be the best route to take. And as long as they turn Bob Hall loose on Shadowman, I'll be totally pleased!

With important characters like Magnus and Solar gone, it would be hard to do this without a reboot of some kind. It's a real shame they were not able to acquire the rights while Shooter was working with them. I would have loved to have seen the direction he was going to take with everything.

StarBrand · Post by **StarBrand** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 12:29:04 pm

Very interesting thread. In fact, the first thread from a message board I've ever printed out. I'll take it to work today and reread it there. Some important stuff to think about.

sanman · Post by **sanman** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 12:49:35 pm

Jay Tomio wrote:It's just a good move to not have strings attached even if you could get the license. As a new start-up a license is problematic if it doesn't come with a base worth talking about (Gold Key is obviously not Star Wars). I realize obviously that the license wouldn't cost nearly as much, but I think we can all agree that not enough people go "Holy *SQUEE*, it's Magnus and Solar" and order enough books to get by, especially a new start-up. If it was FREE I could see it, but why pay for something that really isn't going to help your bottom line in any significant way. If anything, at this point it would confuse people and I think you can use the departure as a natural break from your past work, both creatively and with your marketing. The proof is in the pudding right now, the GK characters last seen weren't blowing up the comics world.

I think you can in some regards continuing continuity at some point but only making it applicable to past readers and not make the new stuff dependent on it can be done. It doesn't matter if it's a reboot or not, as long as it's not marketed as a continuation of or requires past books for a new reader to jump on. If it exists it should only do so as an inside joke but not be at the forefront of the story ala DC does at times.

I think you can proceed with the "spirit" of Valiant, that twist I love like first appearances before I knew they were relevant first appearances - fun *SQUEE* like that.

I have to agree—this reminds me of how Doctor Who was reintroduced with a soft reboot. The first season didn’t rely on the viewer knowing a whole lot about the classic series and had just a few nods to the classic run for the faithful.

Once the show became more successful, the series writers took advantage of many classic concepts and characters but knowing such hasn’t been an enjoyment prerequisite—only rewarding bits for the faithful and opportunities to delve deeper for others.

IMHO, it’s going to be a tricky balance to achieve. If the stories and characters move too far away from the VH1 universe then that’s no better than an Acclaim rehash. But, the characters need to be updated enough to overcome the negativity associated with Valiant. (In my opinion I think its ridiculous for LCS owners with long boxes of Turok #1, etc. to complain—they are as much to blame for the publisher’s decline—but that’s another topic entirely).

I’m too am hopeing for something more analogous to the Ultimate Marvel Universe but with a reasonable explanation on how it connects to VH1 – VH3.

IanAlexavier · Post by **IanAlexavier** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:10:50 pm

Jay Tomio wrote:
I think you can in some regards continuing continuity at some point but only making it applicable to past readers and not make the new stuff dependent on it can be done. It doesn't matter if it's a reboot or not, as long as it's not marketed as a continuation of or requires past books for a new reader to jump on. If it exists it should only do so as an inside joke but not be at the forefront of the story ala DC does at times.

Its tricky... but it is what I hope!

iggy101us · Post by **iggy101us** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:19:32 pm

What about Playing God? I thought that it was written with the possibility that it can be part of continuity.

xodacia81 · Post by **xodacia81** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:22:20 pm

Heath wrote:I love the Rai #0 reference on the home page right now. And, it's appears from the silhouette that Bloodshot has been redesigned (but I still expect he'll maintain the core features of the character). While it's a stretch, to me this implies a reboot of the universe. I think Greg's comparison to the Ultimate Marvel line is going to be pretty accurate. Maybe this will be Ultimate Valiant.

There was a time I would have been very disappointed with a total reboot. But now, I think it would be the best route to take. And as long as they turn Bob Hall loose on Shadowman, I'll be totally pleased!

Same here. I can live with that. As for Bob Hall and Shadowman? Be still my fan-boy heart. Simply one of the best runs on comics EVER.

xodacia81 · Post by **xodacia81** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:23:03 pm

iggy101us wrote:What about Playing God? I thought that it was written with the possibility that it can be part of continuity.

We shall see.

sanman · Post by **sanman** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:48:08 pm

xodacia81 wrote:
iggy101us wrote:What about Playing God? I thought that it was written with the possibility that it can be part of continuity.
We shall see.

I didn't know this was a possibility.

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