Who will replace Clayton Crain on Rai?

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erwinrafael
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Re: Who will replace Clayton Crain on Rai?

Post by erwinrafael »

Aram wrote:
bygranddesign wrote:
erwinrafael wrote:
Clayton Crain's art is promising but he really needs guidance on how to draw to tell a story. Maybe he can learn from the best storytellers in VEI's stable: Pere Perez, Clayton Henry and Cary Nord.
I love David Aja ... and those VEI artists ... but I think Crain takes a back seat to no one. He put his heart and soul into those Rai pages - the level of detail is astonishing .. and the page layouts were quite inventive. I think any young artist who has ambition to draw in comics should take some layout classes from Aja .. but get your Masters in Crain's digital art class.
I think I've said this before, but I completely agree and I think Crain is still just getting started to hit his stride and is set on the road to become one of the legends of this era.

I honestly don't get what people are saying about Crain's story telling. That's the writer's job, unless You're named Bob Hall. :thumb:
Storytelling skills for a comic book artist means being able to guide the readers visually through the illustrations. Crain is weak, VERY weak, in terms of that skill. Look at his first page. The panels do not make sense because it goes top-down, left-right, top-down. For readers in the English language, it's not the normal flow of reading, which is usually left-right and then top-down. Crain seems to have understood this a bit late and tried to make up for it by making his second panel a bit skewed to the right. (Interestingly, there is a preview version of the art where the second panel is not there. Did Crain just insert the second panel, which compromised the layout?)

Another storytelling boo boo here.

Image

The fourth panel, why zoom on the cylinder? Isn't zooming on the trigger more menacing, to complement the "I'm about to show you..." dialogue. But that is not even the worst storytelling mistake in this page. Based on the motion lines, the pistol was cut from a blade that is on the pistol's right side. Right? But look at the next page.

Image

The blade came from a different direction.

The worst offense is the sequence between Rai and Spylocke. I can not find a scan, but really, if somebody can tell me that there is a smooth flow between Rai running towards Spylocke and then jumping through the window on the left hand side of Spylocke, then kudos to him who finds that good visual storytelling.

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Re: Who will replace Clayton Crain on Rai?

Post by lorddunlow »

How do you guys enjoy anything? I never would have noticed any of that in 100 re-reads of this issue.

I'm glad I'm not that critical (and I'm using that in the true sense of the term - not in a negative way). I see pretty picture. Me likey.
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Re: Who will replace Clayton Crain on Rai?

Post by hkupo »

Maybe they'll rotate in Mike Choi like back in the x-force days. They're styles were different but didn't clash and both were of great quality. TBH I'm loving Del Mundo's work on Elektra and could see him do Rai justice.
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Re: Who will replace Clayton Crain on Rai?

Post by bygranddesign »

erwinrafael wrote:
The fourth panel, why zoom on the cylinder? Isn't zooming on the trigger more menacing, to complement the "I'm about to show you..." dialogue.
The point was to show the cylinder in motion about to fire a bullet ... which in turn coincides with the motion of the blade stopping the gun/bullet from firing.

But that is not even the worst storytelling mistake in this page. Based on the motion lines, the pistol was cut from a blade that is on the pistol's right side. Right? But look at the next page.
i noticed that too. It didn't ruin my experience. Sorry it bothered you so much. I don't know how you enjoy anything with that high level scrutiny. I spot mistakes all the time - but you move on from it and focus on all the good that the work provides.

Sorry you don't dig it - I personally have read this comic numerous times and find different things within the story and the art that brings me much joy. But what do I know? I guess i'm just a happy fool :hi:

Also, I find nothing wrong with the "flow". Not every page worked perfectly but damn you are tough to please. Maybe you would enjoyed it better if you just read it digitally with the guided view? Then you wouldn't have to worry about the flow?
Last edited by bygranddesign on Wed May 21, 2014 9:34:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Who will replace Clayton Crain on Rai?

Post by erwinrafael »

lorddunlow wrote:How do you guys enjoy anything? I never would have noticed any of that in 100 re-reads of this issue.

I'm glad I'm not that critical (and I'm using that in the true sense of the term - not in a negative way). I see pretty picture. Me likey.
In my case, the critical mindset actually made me enjoy comic books more. It made me appreciate the small things, like motion lines, panel sizes, etc., that artists do. I developed this when I enrolled in a comic book writing class as an elective in college, and then I got to know an artist (our final paper is a comic book and I had to find an artist to draw the story I wrote). After seeing the artist work, I got to appreciate his craft. There's really so much thought put into drawing a comic book page that it seems a crime not to recognize that. Being blind to comic book storytelling basics is the attitude that propelled artists like Rob Liefeld to undeserved superstardom.

Crain's got the chops. He needs to work on his craft.

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Re: Who will replace Clayton Crain on Rai?

Post by ilzuccone »

A lot of the issues that erwinrafael is bringing up are probably due to cutting corners. Painting a book like this takes a lot of time. crain probably shorts the layout portion of his job.

IMO

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Re: Who will replace Clayton Crain on Rai?

Post by jmatt »

lorddunlow wrote:I'm glad I'm not that critical (and I'm using that in the true sense of the term - not in a negative way). I see pretty picture. Me likey.
Like you, I'm generally not that hard to please. As long as I can understand the gist of what's happening, I don't have a problem with it. I get what Erwin is saying, good visual flow is better than bad, but I understood what's going on.

Btw, I really liked the Stjepan Sejic stuff you posted. Never saw his stuff before. What book is that?
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Re: Who will replace Clayton Crain on Rai?

Post by kjjohanson »

ilzuccone wrote:A lot of the issues that erwinrafael is bringing up are probably due to cutting corners. Painting a book like this takes a lot of time. crain probably shorts the layout portion of his job.

IMO
I think that's the one step that you can't shorten.
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Re: Who will replace Clayton Crain on Rai?

Post by erwinrafael »

I think there were also some editorial decisions that affected the storytelling in some of Crain's pages. For example, Page 1. This was the original page.

Image

The flow here is better than what ended up in the Rai #1 that you are holding now. There is an additional second panel and the last two panels were switched in what actually got printed.

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Re: Who will replace Clayton Crain on Rai?

Post by lorddunlow »

jmatt wrote:
lorddunlow wrote:I'm glad I'm not that critical (and I'm using that in the true sense of the term - not in a negative way). I see pretty picture. Me likey.
Like you, I'm generally not that hard to please. As long as I can understand the gist of what's happening, I don't have a problem with it. I get what Erwin is saying, good visual flow is better than bad, but I understood what's going on.

Btw, I really liked the Stjepan Sejic stuff you posted. Never saw his stuff before. What book is that?
Aphrodite IX - it's an incredible book. I think he also does the art in Artifacts from Top Cow as well, but I'm not sure of that. He has switched his style up in recent issues though to a clean Don Bluth-like animation style (which I also like a lot).
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Re: Who will replace Clayton Crain on Rai?

Post by Elveen »

I don't know what VEI is going to do, but I do know that Clayton is doing the 1st arc, and then will not be able to do the next issue. There is not enough time in the day.

I also know that Clayton will be back on Rai. What VEI plans to do between Clayton arcs..... I don't know.

I'd imagine that they have been discussing it for a while now.

Clayton Crane is an amazing talent (I'm not saying that some of the points brought up in this thread are not valid or wahtever) but due to his style, and his work, it is a slower process.

Agian, I'll trust VEI to make the best decision with regards to the art of Rai....... and really nothing would surprise me. They could do a fill in issue or 2, they could have someone else do the 2nd arc, or even something else.

Regardless. I loved the visuals of Rai. It was not perfect, but the WOW factor was there!

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Re: Who will replace Clayton Crain on Rai?

Post by kjjohanson »

I don't know if this is a general issue with Valiant, but one the reasons that Zircher left (according to his Twitter feed), was that there were delays in receiving scripts so he could start the art. If future story lines are somewhat dependent on how current stories are being received (this is just speculation here), they may not have enough complete scripts done ahead of time for Crain to do full arcs. That wouldn't be an issue with the first arc of a series, of course, unless that series is intricately tied into another one.
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Re: Who will replace Clayton Crain on Rai?

Post by iwantvaliant »

kjjohanson wrote:I don't know if this is a general issue with Valiant, but one the reasons that Zircher left (according to his Twitter feed), was that there were delays in receiving scripts so he could start the art. If future story lines are somewhat dependent on how current stories are being received (this is just speculation here), they may not have enough complete scripts done ahead of time for Crain to do full arcs. That wouldn't be an issue with the first arc of a series, of course, unless that series is intricately tied into another one.
Wasn't Zircher co-writing? How could there be delays in scripts if he's the co-writer?
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Re: Who will replace Clayton Crain on Rai?

Post by kjjohanson »

iwantvaliant wrote:
kjjohanson wrote:I don't know if this is a general issue with Valiant, but one the reasons that Zircher left (according to his Twitter feed), was that there were delays in receiving scripts so he could start the art. If future story lines are somewhat dependent on how current stories are being received (this is just speculation here), they may not have enough complete scripts done ahead of time for Crain to do full arcs. That wouldn't be an issue with the first arc of a series, of course, unless that series is intricately tied into another one.
Wasn't Zircher co-writing? How could there be delays in scripts if he's the co-writer?
I don't know whether he was co-writing. And now that I think of it, I think his tweet was about it being nice to get scripts with a decent lead time at DC. I just assumed that that was a knock against Valiant, but I could be wrong.
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Re: Who will replace Clayton Crain on Rai?

Post by bygranddesign »

kjjohanson wrote:
iwantvaliant wrote:
kjjohanson wrote:I don't know if this is a general issue with Valiant, but one the reasons that Zircher left (according to his Twitter feed), was that there were delays in receiving scripts so he could start the art. If future story lines are somewhat dependent on how current stories are being received (this is just speculation here), they may not have enough complete scripts done ahead of time for Crain to do full arcs. That wouldn't be an issue with the first arc of a series, of course, unless that series is intricately tied into another one.
Wasn't Zircher co-writing? How could there be delays in scripts if he's the co-writer?
I don't know whether he was co-writing. And now that I think of it, I think his tweet was about it being nice to get scripts with a decent lead time at DC. I just assumed that that was a knock against Valiant, but I could be wrong.
I think he probably meant that as a slight against Valiant.

I remember RDLT saying the same thing when Shadowman was having all its problems with art in its 2nd arc with so many different fill-in artists (sometimes 3-4 people on one issue) it was more a problem with the scripts coming in so late than the artists being slow and/or looking rushed...

But I think that was more a Shadowman issue than a Valiant issue. And although Zircher had a hand in the writing, one of his complaints I believe was that there were too many cooks in the kitchen - with Josh Johns and Simons along with him and Jordan all trying to write, re-write scripts. So maybe that was part of Zircher's frustration as well....
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Re: Who will replace Clayton Crain on Rai?

Post by Elveen »

Shadowman #1-5 give Zircher writer credits.

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Re: Who will replace Clayton Crain on Rai?

Post by The Dirt Gang »

I think James Stokoe could be an interesting choice. I've not ready much of his work because his subject matter thus far has not interested me, but I love his work.

Although, I would be a departure from the style being used now.

Ladronn would be great on Rai.
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Re: Who will replace Clayton Crain on Rai?

Post by AnthonyF »

The Dirt Gang wrote:I think James Stokoe could be an interesting choice. I've not ready much of his work because his subject matter thus far has not interested me, but I love his work.

Although, I would be a departure from the style being used now.

Ladronn would be great on Rai.

:hm: Good suggestions.

But it's ruining me... if we don't get one of these guys on the 2nd story, I'm going to be a little disappointed. :hope:

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Re: Who will replace Clayton Crain on Rai?

Post by leonmallett »

I was going to post about wanting consistency more than anything on each arc, but then remembered that Quantum and Woody proved to me that consistency can be a bad thing too. VALIANT cannot win either way. :P
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Re: Who will replace Clayton Crain on Rai?

Post by Sven the Returned »

I really like it when different arcs have a different feel and the art style heightens their differences.

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Re: Who will replace Clayton Crain on Rai?

Post by leonmallett »

Lady Oiorpata wrote:I really like it when different arcs have a different feel and the art style heightens their differences.
It can certainly set the tone, but requires a good fit IMHO. :)
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Re: Who will replace Clayton Crain on Rai?

Post by Sven the Returned »

So long hiatus = Crain returning?

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Re: Who will replace Clayton Crain on Rai?

Post by iwantvaliant »

Lady Oiorpata wrote:So long hiatus = Crain returning?
Yes. In December with #5.
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Re: Who will replace Clayton Crain on Rai?

Post by lorddunlow »

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=302760479884328" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(ugh, nasty Facebook link... I feel dirty)

Seems Crain has just now finished #3. Definitely needs that hiatus, I would say. I honestly don't care how long it takes to keep him the only artist on the series. I really hope VEI continues this trend with all of the main titles.
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Re: Who will replace Clayton Crain on Rai?

Post by kjjohanson »

lorddunlow wrote:https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=302760479884328

(ugh, nasty Facebook link... I feel dirty)

Seems Crain has just now finished #3. Definitely needs that hiatus, I would say. I honestly don't care how long it takes to keep him the only artist on the series. I really hope VEI continues this trend with all of the main titles.
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