Some love for Milligan's Shadowman

The Dirt Gang · Post by **The Dirt Gang** » Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:42:14 pm

http://multiversitycomics.com/podcasts/ ... ames-sime/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is a great interview with the owner, James Sime, of Isotope Comic Book Lounge in San Francisco. First of all, the guy has some amazing ideas on creating community and has done some really interesting projects through his shop.

Anyhow, when asked about comics he is into, he mentions Milligan's run on Shadowman (just after the 56 minute mark). He's a big Milligan fan and calls it "vintage Vertigo" and "awesome". I had lost interest in Shadowman and never picked up Milligan's run. I think I'll do so now. I used to be a big Milligan fan. Engima was a fantastic book and I was a fan of X-Statix, as well. Sime taste seems to be similar to mine and I was glad to hear such a positive reaction, since I've been on the fence about picking it up.

lorddunlow · Post by **lorddunlow** » Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:51:21 pm

The Dirt Gang wrote:http://multiversitycomics.com/podcasts/ ... ames-sime/

This is a great interview with the owner, James Sime, of Isotope Comic Book Lounge in San Francisco. First of all, the guy has some amazing ideas on creating community and has done some really interesting projects through his shop.

Anyhow, when asked about comics he is into, he mentions Milligan's run on Shadowman (just after the 56 minute mark). He's a big Milligan fan and calls it "vintage Vertigo" and "awesome". I had lost interest in Shadowman and never picked up Milligan's run. I think I'll do so now. I used to be a big Milligan fan. Engima was a fantastic book and I was a fan of X-Statix, as well. Sime taste seems to be similar to mine and I was glad to hear such a positive reaction, since I've been on the fence about picking it up.

Don't get your hopes up too much. I really enjoyed #13 and #14. It sorta went downhill after that and completely jumped the shark and off a cliff with the last issue of End Times.

The Dirt Gang · Post by **The Dirt Gang** » Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:57:35 pm

lorddunlow wrote: Don't get your hopes up too much. I really enjoyed #13 and #14. It sorta went downhill after that and completely jumped the shark and off a cliff with the last issue of End Times.

Thanks for dashing my optimism

The interview was from March, so maybe Sime feels the same way you do now. I do recommend listening to the interview. I'd love to be able to participate and some of his shops events.

caxiotis · Post by **caxiotis** » Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:41:37 pm

Read the first trade by Milligan and thought was 2/5. Sorry buddy

JonesyAZ · Post by **JonesyAZ** » Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:48:53 pm

While I have also been up and down with VEI's Shadowman, if you haven't ready any of the issues yet Dirt Gang, I would give it a shot. Ultimately everyone takes different things from the books that they read; some love Shadowman, some don't.

If I were to recommend specific issues to check out, do the following:

Shadowman 0, 10 (the prior are essentially a two-part story) and then Milligan's 13-16

From there, if you dig what he's doing, then give the three issue "End Times" book a shot. Personally, I also like the first 9 issues of Shadowman but you can do without 11 and 12.

Let us know what you think when you've read Shadowman!

The Dirt Gang · Post by **The Dirt Gang** » Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:07:44 pm

caxiotis wrote:Read the first trade by Milligan and thought was 2/5. Sorry buddy

JonesyAZ wrote: If I were to recommend specific issues to check out, do the following:

Shadowman 0, 10 (the prior are essentially a two-part story) and then Milligan's 13-16

I actually have issue 0 and it is probably the best book VEI has produced. That's part of why I was so disappointed with the stuff I've read. Clearly, Justin Jordan can write some great books but the rest of his run didn't do it for me. To be honest, they never made me care about this new version of Jack Boniface. In general, the response on the boards to Milligan's run hasn't seemed great, so I thought it interesting to hear Simes give it such glowing praise. I do need to pick up issue 10.

lorddunlow · Post by **lorddunlow** » Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:17:34 pm

JonesyAZ wrote: Shadowman but you can do without 11 and 12.

Let us know what you think when you've read Shadowman!

There was no #11. I won't even believe you if you produce pictures. It does not exist.

Bone-A-Fach-ee · Post by **Bone-A-Fach-ee** » Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:07:37 pm

Well, I'd still recommend you read it. I don't think you can be disappointed after everyone bashing it, right? I mean, I wasn't happy with it either.....

ilzuccone · Post by **ilzuccone** » Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:09:23 pm

Ok i don't understand all the hate on shadow man.
(note: i did not read the original run on the character so i don't have any of that baggage to skew my view of vei's shadow man.)

Lets take a step back and compare shadow man to every comic being produced by all the publishers. Shadow man is pretty dang good compared to most the garbage on the shelf.

lorddunlow · Post by **lorddunlow** » Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:24:20 pm

ilzuccone wrote:Ok i don't understand all the hate on shadow man.
(note: i did not read the original run on the character so i don't have any of that baggage to skew my view of vei's shadow man.)

Lets take a step back and compare shadow man to every comic being produced by all the publishers. Shadow man is pretty dang good compared to most the garbage on the shelf.

I enjoyed Shadowman #1-10. There were some not-so-great aspects here and there, but overall I enjoyed the series. I think it would have been great if they could have kept Justin Jordan on board in my opinion. (I know it was a mutual separation, but I think VEI pushed a little more for it than he did. I also think the thread here where it was bashed was a big factor in the decision, but that's just my unfounded speculation.)

We won't discuss what occurred between #10 and #13 - some horrors should be erased from history.

I was very excited with Milligan's run while RDLT was manning the art duties, but End Times went from bad to worse. If it continues like this, I will be dropping this book (if it ever returns) - and I didn't drop Q&W.

I mostly commented to The Dirt Gang to adjust expectations in the hopes that he might enjoy it more. This series is not awesome at all. #0 and #10 were, but not the series. End Times is 2nd arc of Q&W bad.

GammaJosh · Post by **GammaJosh** » Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:01:15 pm

It's interesting that this board has such a concentration of negativity towards Shadowman. Most of the Valiant fans I know and talk to in other places are digging it, and I have found several good reviews of End Times #3.

BTW, my best friend started picking up Q&W because of the 2nd arc. I can't imagine anyone not liking it...unless they're a gun-toting, white-supremacist separatist, in which case, ouch, that run probably stung a little.

lorddunlow · Post by **lorddunlow** » Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:07:19 pm

GammaJosh wrote:BTW, my best friend started picking up Q&W because of the 2nd arc. I can't imagine anyone not liking it...unless they're a gun-toting, white-supremacist separatist, in which case, ouch, that run probably stung a little.

Just shows different strokes for different folks. I can't imagine anyone liking it. And I'm about as opposite of a gun-toting, white-supremacist separatist as one can get. The art literally (not figuratively or hyperbolically in any way) made me nauseated. The writing of the 2nd art was not that good either, but dear god, my eyes!

GammaJosh · Post by **GammaJosh** » Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:49:21 pm

I agree it wasn't pretty, and nowhere near the remote vicinity of my preferred comic art style, but I thought it told the story quite effectively.

SJS4 · Post by **SJS4** » Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:03:25 pm

Different strokes for different folks. I enjoyed Milligan's Shadowman issues. I also enjoyed Quantum and Woody right till the end (though i admit the art in the second arc was painful to read).

Ramses818 · Post by **Ramses818** » Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:48:28 pm

Shadowman End Times 3 is AWFUL! I have enjoyed parts of Shadowman, I do like the character (esp. The redesign by Zircher!) but the ending...

. 'Nuff said.

ilzuccone · Post by **ilzuccone** » Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:54:01 pm

i like how the "love for" thread turned into another "hated it" thread.

GammaJosh · Post by **GammaJosh** » Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:00:22 pm

Loved it!

lorddunlow · Post by **lorddunlow** » Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:06:44 pm

ilzuccone wrote:i like how the "love for" thread turned into another "hated it" thread.

Sorry about that.

ilzuccone · Post by **ilzuccone** » Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:11:37 pm

lorddunlow wrote:
ilzuccone wrote:i like how the "love for" thread turned into another "hated it" thread.
Sorry about that.

Oh no problem. it was inevitable. there was no malice in that statement.

bygranddesign · Post by **bygranddesign** » Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:20:31 pm

I think Milligan's run got off to a great start ... and I think Shadowman: End Times had some good ideas with the ending setting us up towards an interesting new direction.

But there is definitely some issues with the execution of those ideas and a lot of implausibility and a lot of Jack acting like an unlikable brat.

Making him "bad" though actually might be a pretty ingenious way of making him "likable". If he starts showing up in books as a "villain" that would be fun. Unity vs. Master Darque and Shadowman?

I do wish that they just continued with the normal numbering instead of making a mini-series ... because I think it failed to boost sales.

agent_graves · Post by **agent_graves** » Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:21:36 pm

I had high hopes for Milligan's run, it just never seemed to find it's footing. Shadowman #0 & #10 are still IMO the best issue's in the run as a whole...

leonmallett · Post by **leonmallett** » Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:35:49 am

For me there was way too many twists on the Jack character thrown around by Milligan that what seemed the central purpose of his run actually created a bigger problem.

A wasted opportunity IMHO. On balance, I think the damage wrought by Milligan in 8 issues exceeded harm of the arguably insufficient development in the preceding 13 issues.

If VEI have a get-out already planned for the ending of End Times, then great, if not, then I ask this: what was the point of Shadowman as an ongoing then <ahem> 'prestige' mini series? Because that ending of Shadowman: End Times just felt incredibly forced to say the least.

VALIANT is not Marvel nor DC, and neither should they try to be a bad pastiche of Vertigo (and the irony that a Vertigo stalwart produced this is not lost on me).

The Dirt Gang · Post by **The Dirt Gang** » Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:10:09 am

Thanks for all the honest reactions. Clearly, it's a polarizing book.

Bone-A-Fach-ee wrote:Well, I'd still recommend you read it. I don't think you can be disappointed after everyone bashing it, right? I mean, I wasn't happy with it either.....

This is very true!

ShadowTuga · Post by **ShadowTuga** » Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:13:31 am

I was expecting a very good run, this is the guy that wrote one of the best Batman tales (DN,DC), an horror-story set in the superhero world.
This book should fit like a glove. Put RDLT on it and HOW CAN IT FAIL?

It did. I don't know wth happened but between the rushed ending of his first arc and this poor excuse for a mini (literally) I am completely uninterested in reading about this Shadowman.
I'm glad it's on hiatus and I hope that his return will be better. Worse, I doubt it can be. They need to set a plan for at least 2 awesome years of stories to make me forget the frustration of wanting this book to be as good as Bloodshot, at least (for a random example OF A NOT-MY-TOP-3 books, but still good reads every month)

So, let's wait and see. I trust VEI that they will FIX this character and series. It just might take more time than everyone expected, since he's one of their primary TOP characters. imho.

The Dirt Gang · Post by **The Dirt Gang** » Tue Jul 15, 2014 6:20:52 am

lorddunlow wrote: (I know it was a mutual separation, but I think VEI pushed a little more for it than he did. I also think the thread here where it was bashed was a big factor in the decision, but that's just my unfounded speculation.)

This is board is sort of like a test audience. A lot of companies pay good money for this kind of feedback. It would not be surprising at all if this were true.

ShadowTuga wrote: I am completely uninterested in reading about this Shadowman.

I read up until about issue 8 or 9 and that was the biggest problem for me. This Shadowman was uninteresting. When Jordan wrote about the Darque family it was great but it just seemed like they didn't know quite what do to with Jack. Maybe an apropos tagline would have been, "You don't know Jack" hehe

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