The Diversity Discussion- Pandering or Legit Representation

[badlander86]

So I'm sure we've all been here before at some point. We're comic book readers. We grew up traditional on square-jawed heterosexual white male main characters for the better part of 60 years when the comic medium really struck a chord with the masses.

It's come up in so many weird conversations I've had at my LCS or with fellow comic-reading friends about the sudden sea change towards diversity. Some feel natural, others...kinda of forced. Bordering on pandering to be honest. This was especially noticeable when both DC and Marvel tried to make big mainstream news on gay marriage being visible in their comics.

It's weird because diversity in comics has always been something of a gimmick for the most part but sometimes the race/religion/sexual orientation of a comic book character does have its merits and really lends to story. But while it may seem natural to some, it would probably look forced to others.

I grew up watching the Justice League cartoon where Green Lantern was portrayed by John Stewart who is African American. For most of my life, that was who Green Lantern was: African American, no-nonsense ex-Marine. But when I transitioned to DC Comics and was shocked to find there were like 5 Green Lanterns from Earth, the main one being Hal Jordan who is considered by many to be "the Green Lantern". To me, John Stewart was a natural fit but was he considered to be a character created to pander at some point during his creation?

Another thing that surprised me was Alan Scott who was made gay in DC's Earth-2 (Nu52 continuity) which irked me. Not for reasons you might suspect. Because I was pretty cool with Alan Scott's son Obsidian who was introduced as being gay pre-Nu52. Same thing with Iceman from X-men coming out of the closet. Or Nu52 Wally West (African American kid) which I was angry about because Justice League Flash was the Flash I grew up on and he was a very white Wally West. These twists felt very forced and I am still resistant to some of the concepts...yet its weird that I can accept Nick Fury suddenly being African American since The Ultimates and the Avengers movies took off.

So to you guys, where is the line between pandering or legit representation drawn and has Valiant done all it can to create a diverse enough cast without the stigma of a character being created as a token <insert person of different race/religion/sexual orientation here>.

[eschnit]

Legit representation. The world we live in today is far different from 1940s DC or 1960s Marvel. Harley Quinn is one of the two hottest characters in comics today (Deadpool being the other). She is not "pandering". DC is simply meeting demand. Abram and Mishka, one black, one female, both Russian, probably the book of the year last year. Toyo Harada, Japanese, the key villain in Valiant's universe, again, not pandering, if he were caucasian/American the storyline wouldn't be there. In other words, a primary reason he's fresh and interesting, is he's not your prototype Lex Luthor or Joker or Kingpin. Livewire is a badass, as is Roku, Mishka, I'm certain War Mother will be. Your Mary Janes are being killed off, see Kay and Flamingo. Kris may be "pandering", but it's 21st century comics, and she's an interesting character there's an appetite for, as is Faith. Dysart went a different direction with Faith and it worked. She's a huge part of Valiant's upside potential...because of her diversity. Tama will matter. Shadowman and Dr. Mirage, there's probably more passion pound for pound for these non-caucasian white male characters than most. Ninjak/Colin is not American, though he is perhaps pandering in the best way. Matt Kindt has given us 1/2 Batman, 1/2 James Bond, not pulling any punches, and we're happy, perhaps they're pandering the opposite direction, giving us a little of what we're used to with . Quantum and Woody are dorks, Armstrong is a schlub one can't help but like. Rai is not American, nor are Ivar or Gilad. Valiant's universe, you're hard-pressed to find your prototypes from the past. Bloodshot and Pete, that's about it. But this represents the world we live in.

The world is no longer dominated by American white males, the audience and potential audience are also not. We moved on from the prototype a while ago. Bruce Wayne, Clark Kent, Peter Parker, Bruce Banner, but then we got Logan, Pandora's box was opened , we're not in pleasantville anymore.

[Phoenix8008]

I don't mind diversity in comics at all. I grew up reading comics in the 80's and 90's when female heroes were right there alongside their male counterparts (even if they were oversexualized and with horrible back breaking art by Liefeld). There were even a couple characters that were brought 'out of the closet' like Quicksilver and Northstar. No problems with any of it.

I detest pandering though. Pushing a quota just so that all the right 'politically correct' slots are filled and accounted for is just reverse discrimination. Kris in Harbinger was handled perfectly. There were hints here and there, but they didn't reveal her actual sexuality until 23 or 24 issues in. Not that it was hidden. It just never came up because it never needed to in the story. That's my gold standard for how to handle diversity. Let it be there as it serves the story, not as a primary reason for the character to exist in the first place. Just claiming that a character that's been around forever is now, or has always been, gay (like Iceman) is a weaker form of this, depending on how much cannon to the contrary there is.

The next most acceptable example of diversity (for me) would be if they replace an existing character with a new one, where the 'superpowers' associated with the character are possible to pass on from one person to another like a Green Lantern power ring, or a suit of X-O armor. When they created a new Green Lantern that was a Muslim guy, I wasn't too bothered, because anybody can get a Green Lantern ring and take up the job. It bugged me some that the Muslim Green Lantern had that designation as part of the advertising campaign for the first issue. When you have to hang a lampshade on it and shake the pom-poms about it, then it's pandering. Just let it be part of the character in the story where appropriate (again, see how Dysart did it with Kris in Harbinger for the perfect example).

If the stories are good and the fan base likes it enough to keep it going, then more power to them.

What really bugs me is when they take a unique character that isn't easily swapped out logically, and change them into somebody else, then totally shove in as many 'diversity' tags as they can fit. I know it'll *SQUEE* off a lot of people because he's so popular with the diversity pushing crowd, but the Miles Morales Spider-Man falls into this category for me. I know it's an alternate reality version, but for awhile they tried to make him the one and only Spider-Man, instead of just one of the several alternate reality Spider-(M/Gw)ens. This also applies to totally rewriting an icon like Captain America to say that despite decades of cannon, he was really a Hydra agent all along. Revising a central portion of a characters core for a gimmick that is obviously going to be undone in short order is the ultimate in idiotic pandering/gimmicks (also see "The Death of Wolverine").

Have real diversity with new characters or with characters that it makes sense to suddenly say they've always been X, Y, or Z. Don't go and try to remake Superman into a Muslim black lesbian woman.

[eschnit]

Good call...or Amadeus Cho as the Hulk

[DirtbagSailor]

The world is diverse.

The market is diverse.

Fans are diverse.

The Internet and social media have expanded the reach (and awareness) of people who otherwise might have limited knowledge of anything beyond their region. There was a time (I suppose) where every alien invasion (or nuclear attack, etc) occurred in NYC and was usually stopped by a superhero who fights crime there.

But the world is much larger than NYC, and not every superhero should be a white/black guy from a major U.S. city.

It seems an outdated concept that Japan, Russia, Austraila, France, India, or Sudan wouldn't have superheroes, or be at the center of many events.

I hate the idea of forced diversity; however, I absolutely love natural diversity in comics. Sort of where a woman hero is great because of who she is and what she does, NOT simply to be a token woman hero. Or a Mexican hero who's costume is basically racial stereotypes rolled into a costume and character.

No.

There are (and should be) heroes all over the world. I've served in military operations with many coalition nations, and never focused on their diversity really. It was more a slight variant of culture at times, yes, but the core factors that make a warrior heroic and great are the same for all mankind regardless of race, gender, or nationality.

Heroic action is what makes a hero.

[badlander86]

Good call...or Amadeus Cho as the Hulk

Which bothers me only slightly because Amadeus as a character is pretty awesome by himself. He's the modern Rick Jones, perpetual sidekick to heroes like the Hulk or Hercules.

And I agree on forced diversity being what kind of kills interest in a character but here's a case study:

Simon Baz (the Muslim Green Lantern) vs. Kamala Khan (the Muslim Ms.Marvel)

Both were touted on being "new positive Muslim representation" in comics. Somehow its weird but I lean more to Ms.Marvel as a better representation or a more "natural" representation of a Muslim character versus Simon Baz...though I suspect its likely due to how weird or uninspired the Simon Baz GL outfit looks.

And recently there's that whole story about the Chinese Superman that DC is going to publish. Reactions have been mixed, some fans believing that its DC trying to "pander" to the larger Chinese market abroad.

[eschnit]

They are. It's an interesting contrast though. Valiant has the liberty to invent itself anew, a great luxury that benefits us. DC and Marvel can't really. They're damned if they do or don't. Their universe is so known that diversity would have to come from existing characters that are already fleshed out in the psyche of multiple generations. Could Spidey and Hulk and Superman be something other than what we knew of them before, sure, but it begs to be questioned. The next big thing is the Rock, but he's not playing Hulk or Daredevil or Wolverine. He'll end up making a marginal character huge.

[Dallow Spicer1]

Interesting question. I dislike 'forced' diversity as feels like there's a political agenda in place. Forced is when a character is 'made' ethnic (eg Nick Fury) or an ethnic version is created (Spider-man, Green Lantern etc). There seems to be some hypocrisy in place when left wing observers criticise 'whitewashing' but not when it happens in reverse.

If comic book companies wish to introduce ethnic characters then do it like Valiant have done with Divinity, create a character then let the reading public decide if it's a popular concept.

[badlander86]

Interesting question. I dislike 'forced' diversity as feels like there's a political agenda in place. Forced is when a character is 'made' ethnic (eg Nick Fury) or an ethnic version is created (Spider-man, Green Lantern etc). There seems to be some hypocrisy in place when left wing observers criticise 'whitewashing' but not when it happens in reverse.

If comic book companies wish to introduce ethnic characters then do it like Valiant have done with Divinity, create a character then let the reading public decide if it's a popular concept.

I agree to a certain extent. For example I love the Blue Marvel concept and execution but somehow some readers might view it as very left-leaning pandering. I even liked Ryan Choi as the Atom (especially in the Brave and the Bold cartoon lol) and was one of the many fans that was stunned and angered at his wasted death in Brightest Day.

I really need to pick up Divinity. Honestly the only reason I haven't picked it up is because I'm never sold on "God-type" characters like Thor, The New Gods...etc.

[Dallow Spicer1]

Interesting question. I dislike 'forced' diversity as feels like there's a political agenda in place. Forced is when a character is 'made' ethnic (eg Nick Fury) or an ethnic version is created (Spider-man, Green Lantern etc). There seems to be some hypocrisy in place when left wing observers criticise 'whitewashing' but not when it happens in reverse.

If comic book companies wish to introduce ethnic characters then do it like Valiant have done with Divinity, create a character then let the reading public decide if it's a popular concept.

I agree to a certain extent. For example I love the Blue Marvel concept and execution but somehow some readers might view it as very left-leaning pandering. I even liked Ryan Choi as the Atom (especially in the Brave and the Bold cartoon lol) and was one of the many fans that was stunned and angered at his wasted death in Brightest Day.

I really need to pick up Divinity. Honestly the only reason I haven't picked it up is because I'm never sold on "God-type" characters like Thor, The New Gods...etc.

Definitely give Divinity a try, I know what you mean about 'God like' characters as they can often be bland but Kindt writes and interesting story and Divinity 2 mini promises to be better than the first mini.

[Watchtower]

VH1 back in the day was a bit of a double-edged sword. On one hand, VH1 did an amazing job really pushing Asians into the limelight, particularly the Japanese but also including the Chinese Dr. Mirage. On the other hand, VH1 was really white otherwise; the only real other diversity came from Shadowman and Gunny Lewis, and the former was more Ambiguously Brown. VH2 gave us Quantum and Woody, but not much else.

VEI has done a great job of not only pushing diversity, but doing so in the right way. Livewire was made black and is probably one of the most important characters in the setting, but none of that has to do with her race. @x was made Hispanic, but his role hasn't had anything to do with his race. Neither have the Hispanic Mary-Maria and the Indian Neela Sethi, both of whom have their ethnicities basically as footnotes. Quantum and Woody were upgraded from best friends to brothers by adoption, and I could see a movie adaptation upgrading them further into mixed-race siblings (because that's how you do it, Josh Trank). Divinity is a brand-new black Russian, which sounds odd and forced at first, but then you read up about Afro-Russians and realize he's representing a group that you didn't even realize was underrepresented.

And sure, there's still several white characters left, but for some of them it actually makes sense to. Aric? He's a Visigoth, which are said to be of Germanic descent. Archer? He's the son of two WBC-style cultists. The Anni-Paddas? Technically it doesn't matter, but personally I really want Matt Smith as Ivar, and thus personally cast around that (not sure about Gilad, but I'm currently set on Seth Rogen as Aram).

Then there's the new Dr. Mirage, which replaced the interracial Hwen and Carmen with the Asian Shan and Hwen. On one hand, there's still a good Asian influence, and from what I've found Shan's story can be considered a salvaging of a scrapped outline for VH2. On the other hand, they not only removed an interracial couple, but through that fan-favorite Carmen, and many on the forum were hoping Valiant would pull off a interracial lesbian Shan and Carmen. A film adaptation would probably not be able to pull that off, but you never know.

Beyond that, VEI's been on its A-game with proper representation. The only time they've ever arguably pandered was through Dead Drop, and guess what? That's considered the worst thing VEI's ever put out so far, and they'd be dumb to ever hire Kot again after that.

[jmatt]

the Chinese Dr. Mirage

Korean, with a Brazilian wife.

I think Valiant's diversity is the strongest and least pandering because the characters have been ethnic since the very beginning.

Ken was always gay, etc.

[bygranddesign]

I think more gay / lesbian / bi-sexual representation is needed in the Valiant universe

And its not about pandering

It just doesn't make sense that in almost 4 years of publishing with all the characters that they have introduced that there is this little representation of LGBT characters

Kris Hathaway and Flamingo are shown as bi-sexual ... and thats about it

There doesn't even seem to be any supporting characters that are LGBT

You want the universe to represent the world outside your window -- I think most people have friends / family members that are gay. They should be represented in greater numbers. And it doesn't have to be made into any big deal. .. or a marketing ploy.

Just an aspect of a fully formed character -- Dysart did a good job of this in Harbinger with Kris and Flamingo.

I think Valiant has done a great job in terms of race and ethnic diversity and a character like Faith ... but they probably could be mindful about having more gay and lesbian representation in the universe.

[badlander86]

the Chinese Dr. Mirage

Korean, with a Brazilian wife.

Damn, VH1 Dr.Mirage sounds like he was living the dream

How do you guys/gals feel about full face covered secret identities which pretty much renders the whole diversity discussion moot since we're talking secret identities. I think of Spawn or Shadowhawk from Image comics and the image and backstory(no pun intended) of the characters were so strong that I think most people forgot that Al Simmons and Paul Johnstone were African Americans. I always felt those were diverse characters done absolutely right because the delivery of them being covered in masks made them essentially everymen (though I suppose everyone's first thought would be that they were white underneath because of reasons) and their race is almost a non-factor in their stories.

But does putting a mask on them make them less visible to say the mainstream media that usually want their diversity loud and proud and such.

[jmatt]

... but they probably could be mindful about having more gay and lesbian representation in the universe.

The problem is that you have to go out of your way to do it, and if not done in a manner that seem like a natural fit in the story it comes off as pandering.

[badlander86]

... but they probably could be mindful about having more gay and lesbian representation in the universe.

The problem is that you have to go out of your way to do it, and if not done in a manner that seem like a natural fit in the story it comes off as pandering.

Maybe its a matter of timing. DC and Marvel's attempts to promote their diversity felt very knee-jerk reaction to Archie Comics The Life with Archie #16 and the Supreme Court decision. Because the mentality was "to strike while the iron is hot", it left a lot of us rolling our eyes at the money-grab/mainstream attention seeking attempts of Marvel and DC to do the same.

To me that seems like pandering, not so much to the LGBT community but for mainstream appeal. Had it been spaced out enough, maybe it would have felt much more organic.

[badlander86]

There are (and should be) heroes all over the world. I've served in military operations with many coalition nations, and never focused on their diversity really. It was more a slight variant of culture at times, yes, but the core factors that make a warrior heroic and great are the same for all mankind regardless of race, gender, or nationality.

Heroic action is what makes a hero.

This. So much this.

[bygranddesign]

... but they probably could be mindful about having more gay and lesbian representation in the universe.

The problem is that you have to go out of your way to do it, and if not done in a manner that seem like a natural fit in the story it comes off as pandering.

Why would you have to go out of your way? Character-centric storytelling is essential in making us care about the characters. At some point you learn about these characters at a very deep level - what they stand for, what are their beliefs, their philosophical outlook and whom they love and care about.

When you create a universe of characters .... At some point, as a writer, when you are developing each characters background story -- you don't have to always check the heterosexual box. That's pretty lazy actually.

Generation Zero is getting its own series-- there should be some deep exploration of these characters and there are about 20 characters linked to Gen Zero. Having 1-2 characters turn out to be gay would not be pandering ... it would make logical sense and actually enrich the storytelling.

[Sven the Returned]

I think more gay / lesbian / bi-sexual representation is needed in the Valiant universe

And its not about pandering

It just doesn't make sense that in almost 4 years of publishing with all the characters that they have introduced that there is this little representation of LGBT characters

Kris Hathaway and Flamingo are shown as bi-sexual ... and thats about it

There doesn't even seem to be any supporting characters that are LGBT

You want the universe to represent the world outside your window -- I think most people have friends / family members that are gay. They should be represented in greater numbers. And it doesn't have to be made into any big deal. .. or a marketing ploy.

Just an aspect of a fully formed character -- Dysart did a good job of this in Harbinger with Kris and Flamingo.

I think Valiant has done a great job in terms of race and ethnic diversity and a character like Faith ... but they probably could be mindful about having more gay and lesbian representation in the universe.

What if certain writers just don't want to touch it because they don't think they can write good gay characters? Forget about a different sexuality i bet most writers could not write a good Republican.

[eschnit]

Kris and Flamingo = Mary Ann and Ginger

[Watchtower]

I could've sworn Dr. Mirage was Chinese. Oh well, the point is he's providing non-Japanese Asian representation, which is noteworthy in a setting where Japanese characters play pretty major roles.

On LGBT representation....yeah, I'll admit, VEI's pretty lacking on that front. There have been a good number of love interests confirmed and teased over the years, but all of them so far have been straight. I even forgot about Kris being bi.

I will note, however, that having at least one bisexual is pretty significant. Western media still struggles with providing bisexual representation, treating homosexuality as mostly binary. And unfortunately, the few major instances of bisexuality you get are usually in the form of Jack Harkness, where they're trying to bone pretty much everyone. See the TV Tropes pages No Bisexuals and Depraved Bisexual for more.

That said, Kris has been MIA since the original Harbinger, and even then we could definitely use more representation, though at this point it's probably better just to create characters outright. Since we already have two male duos, maybe we can get a female duo who are in lesbians with each other?

On the whole "use face masks to push it further" bit.......it doesn't even really matter at this point. Once again, look at Livewire. She's black, she's one of the most important/powerful humans on Earth right now, and she covers nothing. And it's not even like she's trying to make some kind of statement or anything like that. She just does.

[DirtbagSailor]

Artist Bernard Chang ("Chang" is a Chinese name)

There is a "Dong Fang" (NOTE: not Fong) Hotel in Guangzhou, China (aka the south...)

"Dong" is also the name for Vietnamese currency (e.g. I paid her in Dong...). It's abriviated VND.

"Hwan" is a Korean name (not sure about Hwen...).

"Fong" is a Chinese surname that actually has a few forms depending on where it's from;

• Hong Kong /Cantonese = Fāng
  Taishanese = Kuàng
  Malaysian–Singaporean = Féng
  Taiwanese = Fèng

"Shan" is a Chinese surname but the origin of the name isn't really known. It's also an Irish baby name. Most of people of the Shan surname live in Shandong. A few Shan's are found in Taiwan.

"Carmen" was Brazilian (as evidenced by her booty...). The name "Carmen" comes from Italian, Spanish and Portuguese; and since Portuguese is the official language of Brazil, the use of the name Carmen is actually quite accurate!

Source = the Internet, my Chinese wife, and my Chinese speaking oldest daughter.

[badlander86]

I'm glad all the responses in this thread have been very civil and positive. I was actually pretty worried I was treading on sensitive ground with this issue and that the discussion could turn ugly.

[badlander86]

Artist Bernard Chang ("Chang" is a Chinese name)

There is a "Dong Fang" (NOTE: not Fong) Hotel in Guangzhou, China (aka the south...)

"Dong" is also the name for Vietnamese currency (e.g. I paid her in Dong...). It's abriviated VND.

"Hwan" is a Korean name (not sure about Hwen...).

"Fong" is a Chinese surname that actually has a few forms depending on where it's from;

• Hong Kong /Cantonese = Fāng
  Taishanese = Kuàng
  Malaysian–Singaporean = Féng
  Taiwanese = Fèng

"Shan" is a Chinese surname but the origin of the name isn't really known. It's also an Irish baby name. Most of people of the Shan surname live in Shandong. A few Shan's are found in Taiwan.

"Carmen" was Brazilian (as evidenced by her booty...). The name "Carmen" comes from Italian, Spanish and Portuguese; and since Portuguese is the official language of Brazil, the use of the name Carmen is actually quite accurate!

Source = the Internet, my Chinese wife, and my Chinese speaking oldest daughter.

Cool info. Being a Singaporean minority (I'm pretty much a mongrel between 2 local minorities anyway), I picked up Mandarin and Hokkien (local dialect) during my upbringing.

[DirtbagSailor]

Also, when I've seen men and women in action, I don't seem to recall them ever stopping in the middle of battle to ask or discuss what their sexual preference was. It's almost like it didn't matter.

I also never refused help from a man or woman of another race or nationality, though I have refused help from a$$holes frequently.

I also don't really care much for overly dramatic and/or eccentric people who constantly shove their beliefs and/or lifestyles in my face for no apparent reason other than their need for constant attention and/or validation. This is true (for me) regardless of beliefs and/or lifestyle, since inappropriate or obnoxious behaviors can and are demonstrated by people of all sorts.

The circumstances where a character has to be promoted as the *NEW* gay or transgendered character often seem out of place or somewhat forced.

I like (my opinion) how Game of Thrones handled it.

Prince Oberyn Martell of Dorn slept openly with anything he was in he mood for, but at no time did it seem forced or awkward. It was simply Oberyn being Oberyn and he was awesome!

Same for Princess Yara Greyjoy of the Iron Islands, who (while she may potentially swing both ways...) clearly has no problem with *SQUEE* the *SQUEE* off a good woman. The character is so solid, strong, and consistent, that who cares what she sleeps with? It works unapologetically as part of the story and character development, and without forced awkwardness.