Best way to spend 1000 dollars for speculation
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Best way to spend 1000 dollars for speculation
I often see this thread on other comic forums. What do you all think would be the best way to spend 1000 dollars on valiant comics for speculation purposes? Which blue chip comics do you think will raise in value in the next decade?
It will be fun to revisit this thread in a few years to see who is right!
It will be fun to revisit this thread in a few years to see who is right!
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Re: Best way to spend 1000 dollars for speculation
There aren't many Valiant books that should command that price, so rather than any single hardcore book, for that kind of money just go and start buying as complete a first appearance set of Valiant characters CGC'd or CBCS'd at 9.8 that you can. The end.
Anything else for that money you'd have to target a Valiant niche market (like high grade Unity reds, or Harby 0's, books like that). But with a grand you could probably get put together a helluva 9.8 collection of first apperances which always tend to command interest in the wider market rather than only the Valiant purists.
Also, if Valiant ever pops in media like film, then the greater market as a whole will be interested in the characters before the limited run books IMO. Basically you'll have a wider market to end your speculation with using high grade first appearances.
Anything else for that money you'd have to target a Valiant niche market (like high grade Unity reds, or Harby 0's, books like that). But with a grand you could probably get put together a helluva 9.8 collection of first apperances which always tend to command interest in the wider market rather than only the Valiant purists.
Also, if Valiant ever pops in media like film, then the greater market as a whole will be interested in the characters before the limited run books IMO. Basically you'll have a wider market to end your speculation with using high grade first appearances.
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Re: Best way to spend 1000 dollars for speculation
For characters that appeared in the 90s, their first appearance in the original version. Harby is pretty expensive. The others are more affordable. The one exception to this, imo, would be Livewire. If she ever makes it into a movie, people will want Harby #3 from 2012.
For newer characters, I think Divinity is a good bet. Also maybe Tama, from The Valiant #4. Bleeding Monk, possibly. I also have 20 copies of each of the first four issues of Imperium, simply because there are so many first appearances there and it's a great title. Less likely to be seen in a movie, however.
I have many copies of all of these (and more) waiting to be slabbed... but I wanna see concrete movie news before I spend the money.
For newer characters, I think Divinity is a good bet. Also maybe Tama, from The Valiant #4. Bleeding Monk, possibly. I also have 20 copies of each of the first four issues of Imperium, simply because there are so many first appearances there and it's a great title. Less likely to be seen in a movie, however.
I have many copies of all of these (and more) waiting to be slabbed... but I wanna see concrete movie news before I spend the money.
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Re: Best way to spend 1000 dollars for speculation
Harbinger 1 CGC 9.8 and Rai 0 CGC 9.8. That should get you close to $1000 for the pair.
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Re: Best way to spend 1000 dollars for speculation
generally id watch ebay auctions on classic stuff and try to snip some goodies no rush if you have the case spec is also about the buy in cost as well as the gain and if its 8 times buck days you are 8 percent up on good deal buy it nows as well
so you are 80 bucks in teh good right off the bat
so you are 80 bucks in teh good right off the bat
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Re: Best way to spend 1000 dollars for speculation
Just hunt down all the VEI 2012 first appearances
EW 5
Shadowman 13
Divinity 1
Eternity 1
Savage 1
My favorite top 5 list in no order.
You could also dig around CAF looking for some orginal art to buy with $1000. Lots of room for Valiant art to grow and you would really be surprised what a grand can get you.
EW 5
Shadowman 13
Divinity 1
Eternity 1
Savage 1
My favorite top 5 list in no order.
You could also dig around CAF looking for some orginal art to buy with $1000. Lots of room for Valiant art to grow and you would really be surprised what a grand can get you.
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Re: Best way to spend 1000 dollars for speculation
My
Vital 1st appearance books that are MUST HAVE in 9.8 condition.
---------------------------------------
CGC 9.8 Harbinger #1 (W/ Coupon) (1992) - 1st Peter Stanchek (Sting), 1st Kris, 1st Faith Herbert (Zephyr), 1st Charlene (Flamingo), 1st Torque
CGC 9.8 Solar Man of the Atom #10 (1st Print) (1992) - 1st Eternal Warrior (Gilad), 1st Geomancers
CGC 9.8 Archer & Armstrong #0 (Gold) (1992) - 1st Archer 1st Armstrong
Buy ANY copy; ANY condition
---------------------------------------
Bloodshot #0 (Platinum Error) (1993) - One of the "Holy Grails" of Valiant Comics
Secrets of the Valiant Universe #1 (Wizard Special Edition) (1994) - Unreleased, very condition sensitive, very few copies in circulation
Quantum and Woody #1 (Retailer Review) (1997) - 1st Quantum, 1st Woody
The Hong Kong editions for:
---------------------------------------
Bloodshot #0 - Crazy Rare
X-O #0 - Crazy Rare
Shadowman #0 - Crazy Rare
Ninjak #1 - Crazy Rare
Doctor Mirage #1 - Crazy Rare
Solar #3 - Crazy Rare
Buy bulk Stacks of:
---------------------------------------
X-O Manowar #1 (1992) - 1st X-O Manowar (Aric of Dacia), 1st Manowar class X-O Armor, 1st Ken Clarkson
Rai #0 (1992) - 1st "Full" Bloodshot (after EW #4), 1st New Rai, 1st Solar the Destroyer
X-O Manowar #4 (1992) - 1st "Cameo" Jack Boniface (Shadowman)
Magnus Robot Fighter #7 (1992) - 1st X-O Armor (Commando class), 1st Grand One
Eternal Warrior #4 (1992) - 1st Bloodshot, 1st Immortal Enemy
Solar Man of the Atom #3 (1991) - 1st Toyo Harada, 1st Harbinger Foundation
Vital 1st appearance books that are MUST HAVE in 9.8 condition.
---------------------------------------
CGC 9.8 Harbinger #1 (W/ Coupon) (1992) - 1st Peter Stanchek (Sting), 1st Kris, 1st Faith Herbert (Zephyr), 1st Charlene (Flamingo), 1st Torque
CGC 9.8 Solar Man of the Atom #10 (1st Print) (1992) - 1st Eternal Warrior (Gilad), 1st Geomancers
CGC 9.8 Archer & Armstrong #0 (Gold) (1992) - 1st Archer 1st Armstrong
Buy ANY copy; ANY condition
---------------------------------------
Bloodshot #0 (Platinum Error) (1993) - One of the "Holy Grails" of Valiant Comics
Secrets of the Valiant Universe #1 (Wizard Special Edition) (1994) - Unreleased, very condition sensitive, very few copies in circulation
Quantum and Woody #1 (Retailer Review) (1997) - 1st Quantum, 1st Woody
The Hong Kong editions for:
---------------------------------------
Bloodshot #0 - Crazy Rare
X-O #0 - Crazy Rare
Shadowman #0 - Crazy Rare
Ninjak #1 - Crazy Rare
Doctor Mirage #1 - Crazy Rare
Solar #3 - Crazy Rare
Buy bulk Stacks of:
---------------------------------------
X-O Manowar #1 (1992) - 1st X-O Manowar (Aric of Dacia), 1st Manowar class X-O Armor, 1st Ken Clarkson
Rai #0 (1992) - 1st "Full" Bloodshot (after EW #4), 1st New Rai, 1st Solar the Destroyer
X-O Manowar #4 (1992) - 1st "Cameo" Jack Boniface (Shadowman)
Magnus Robot Fighter #7 (1992) - 1st X-O Armor (Commando class), 1st Grand One
Eternal Warrior #4 (1992) - 1st Bloodshot, 1st Immortal Enemy
Solar Man of the Atom #3 (1991) - 1st Toyo Harada, 1st Harbinger Foundation
DBS
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- DirtbagSailor
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Re: Best way to spend 1000 dollars for speculation
For VEI, it is a little different.
---------------------------------------
Harbinger #3 (Zircher 1:20 Variant) (2012) - 1st Livewire - MODERN version that is basically an entirely new character and one of the most prominent (and capable) female characters that exists in the Valiant Universe.
Divinity #1 (LaRosa 1:40 Variant) (2015) - 1st Divinity, less than 350 copies exist
Divinity #3 (LaRosa 1:20 Variant) (2015) - 1st Myshka, 1st Kazmir
Divinity III: The Stalinverse #1 (Gorham 1:50 Variant) (2016) - 1st Red Legend, 1st Red Brigade
Eternity #1 (Massafera 1:40 Variant) (2017) - 1st, well, a lot of people. Not yet sure because we are not yet sure.
Shadowman #5 (Grampa 1:125 Line Variant) (2012) - 1st Shan Fong (new Dr. Mirage)
Shadowman #13 (Templesmith 1:20 Variant) (2012) - 1st Punk Mambo
Shadowman #13 (Davis 1:50 Variant) (2012) - 1st Punk Mambo
Ninjak #1 (LaRosa Gold Variant) (2015) - 1st Roku
Savage #1 (LaRosa Variant) (2015) - 1st Savage, less than 350 copies exist
Harbinger #1 (DMG)
Bloodshot #1 (DMG)
Wild Card:
---------------------------------------
Book of Death #1 (2015) - 1st War Mother (Early Design), 1st, well, a lot of people. Not yet sure because we are not yet sure.
The problem with Book of Death #1 (ANY variant really) is that there are so many copies available. YES, 100% there are a TON of 1st appearances; however, many of those have not yet made their full appearances or become household names. IF they do, then YES, 100% this books will be a "thing" in its less common variants. Until then, it is a book that is presently VERY inexpensive and overlooked. It all sort of depends on what happens...
---------------------------------------
Harbinger #3 (Zircher 1:20 Variant) (2012) - 1st Livewire - MODERN version that is basically an entirely new character and one of the most prominent (and capable) female characters that exists in the Valiant Universe.
Divinity #1 (LaRosa 1:40 Variant) (2015) - 1st Divinity, less than 350 copies exist
Divinity #3 (LaRosa 1:20 Variant) (2015) - 1st Myshka, 1st Kazmir
Divinity III: The Stalinverse #1 (Gorham 1:50 Variant) (2016) - 1st Red Legend, 1st Red Brigade
Eternity #1 (Massafera 1:40 Variant) (2017) - 1st, well, a lot of people. Not yet sure because we are not yet sure.
Shadowman #5 (Grampa 1:125 Line Variant) (2012) - 1st Shan Fong (new Dr. Mirage)
Shadowman #13 (Templesmith 1:20 Variant) (2012) - 1st Punk Mambo
Shadowman #13 (Davis 1:50 Variant) (2012) - 1st Punk Mambo
Ninjak #1 (LaRosa Gold Variant) (2015) - 1st Roku
Savage #1 (LaRosa Variant) (2015) - 1st Savage, less than 350 copies exist
Harbinger #1 (DMG)
Bloodshot #1 (DMG)
Wild Card:
---------------------------------------
Book of Death #1 (2015) - 1st War Mother (Early Design), 1st, well, a lot of people. Not yet sure because we are not yet sure.
The problem with Book of Death #1 (ANY variant really) is that there are so many copies available. YES, 100% there are a TON of 1st appearances; however, many of those have not yet made their full appearances or become household names. IF they do, then YES, 100% this books will be a "thing" in its less common variants. Until then, it is a book that is presently VERY inexpensive and overlooked. It all sort of depends on what happens...
DBS
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- nycjadie
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Re: Best way to spend 1000 dollars for speculation
What are these HK editions? I've never heard of them!DirtbagSailor wrote:My
Vital 1st appearance books that are MUST HAVE in 9.8 condition.
---------------------------------------
CGC 9.8 Harbinger #1 (W/ Coupon) (1992) - 1st Peter Stanchek (Sting), 1st Kris, 1st Faith Herbert (Zephyr), 1st Charlene (Flamingo), 1st Torque
CGC 9.8 Solar Man of the Atom #10 (1st Print) (1992) - 1st Eternal Warrior (Gilad), 1st Geomancers
CGC 9.8 Archer & Armstrong #0 (Gold) (1992) - 1st Archer 1st Armstrong
Buy ANY copy; ANY condition
---------------------------------------
Bloodshot #0 (Platinum Error) (1993) - One of the "Holy Grails" of Valiant Comics
Secrets of the Valiant Universe #1 (Wizard Special Edition) (1994) - Unreleased, very condition sensitive, very few copies in circulation
Quantum and Woody #1 (Retailer Review) (1997) - 1st Quantum, 1st Woody
The Hong Kong editions for:
---------------------------------------
Bloodshot #0 - Crazy Rare
X-O #0 - Crazy Rare
Shadowman #0 - Crazy Rare
Ninjak #1 - Crazy Rare
Doctor Mirage #1 - Crazy Rare
Solar #3 - Crazy Rare
Buy bulk Stacks of:
---------------------------------------
X-O Manowar #1 (1992) - 1st X-O Manowar (Aric of Dacia), 1st Manowar class X-O Armor, 1st Ken Clarkson
Rai #0 (1992) - 1st "Full" Bloodshot (after EW #4), 1st New Rai, 1st Solar the Destroyer
X-O Manowar #4 (1992) - 1st "Cameo" Jack Boniface (Shadowman)
Magnus Robot Fighter #7 (1992) - 1st X-O Armor (Commando class), 1st Grand One
Eternal Warrior #4 (1992) - 1st Bloodshot, 1st Immortal Enemy
Solar Man of the Atom #3 (1991) - 1st Toyo Harada, 1st Harbinger Foundation
- TheeBaldMoose
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Re: Best way to spend 1000 dollars for speculation
They've only recently become a thing, as someone on the FB site posted pics asking what he might have. Dinesh chimed in and said he's been hunting for a set for 15 years, and still doesn't have all of them. IF I can find a pic, I will post it.nycjadie wrote:What are these HK editions? I've never heard of them!DirtbagSailor wrote:My
Vital 1st appearance books that are MUST HAVE in 9.8 condition.
---------------------------------------
CGC 9.8 Harbinger #1 (W/ Coupon) (1992) - 1st Peter Stanchek (Sting), 1st Kris, 1st Faith Herbert (Zephyr), 1st Charlene (Flamingo), 1st Torque
CGC 9.8 Solar Man of the Atom #10 (1st Print) (1992) - 1st Eternal Warrior (Gilad), 1st Geomancers
CGC 9.8 Archer & Armstrong #0 (Gold) (1992) - 1st Archer 1st Armstrong
Buy ANY copy; ANY condition
---------------------------------------
Bloodshot #0 (Platinum Error) (1993) - One of the "Holy Grails" of Valiant Comics
Secrets of the Valiant Universe #1 (Wizard Special Edition) (1994) - Unreleased, very condition sensitive, very few copies in circulation
Quantum and Woody #1 (Retailer Review) (1997) - 1st Quantum, 1st Woody
The Hong Kong editions for:
---------------------------------------
Bloodshot #0 - Crazy Rare
X-O #0 - Crazy Rare
Shadowman #0 - Crazy Rare
Ninjak #1 - Crazy Rare
Doctor Mirage #1 - Crazy Rare
Solar #3 - Crazy Rare
Buy bulk Stacks of:
---------------------------------------
X-O Manowar #1 (1992) - 1st X-O Manowar (Aric of Dacia), 1st Manowar class X-O Armor, 1st Ken Clarkson
Rai #0 (1992) - 1st "Full" Bloodshot (after EW #4), 1st New Rai, 1st Solar the Destroyer
X-O Manowar #4 (1992) - 1st "Cameo" Jack Boniface (Shadowman)
Magnus Robot Fighter #7 (1992) - 1st X-O Armor (Commando class), 1st Grand One
Eternal Warrior #4 (1992) - 1st Bloodshot, 1st Immortal Enemy
Solar Man of the Atom #3 (1991) - 1st Toyo Harada, 1st Harbinger Foundation
Moose
- TheeBaldMoose
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Re: Best way to spend 1000 dollars for speculation
Not my book, first and foremost... This is an amazing book, and looks in perfect condition!
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Moose
- Summydad1
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Re: Best way to spend 1000 dollars for speculation
Man those are cool. Do these ever pop up on the eBay? I should probably own the X-O and the Solar!
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- nycjadie
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Re: Best way to spend 1000 dollars for speculation
You learn something new every day!
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Re: Best way to spend 1000 dollars for speculation
For most people, this is the first image we've ever seen. I know I have never seen one pop up on Ebay. Dinesh was pretty stoked to see this one, as I don't know if he had one just yet. 15 years, and he still doesn't have a set says something to the rarity of this itemSummydad1 wrote:Man those are cool. Do these ever pop up on the eBay? I should probably own the X-O and the Solar!
Moose
- DirtbagSailor
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Re: Best way to spend 1000 dollars for speculation
Guess it is time for me to make another Hong Kong trip. A lot of people moved from Hong Kong to Vancouver in the 90's also. So it is possible they may be sitting in a collection or two in Canada.
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Re: Best way to spend 1000 dollars for speculation
The HK Bloodshot is cool. It would be neat to see pics of the others as well.
- greg
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Re: Best way to spend 1000 dollars for speculation
I'm sure it's rare, but there's always a bit of a "foreign" (if I may use a pun) aspect to these kinds of books.TheeBaldMoose wrote:For most people, this is the first image we've ever seen. I know I have never seen one pop up on Ebay. Dinesh was pretty stoked to see this one, as I don't know if he had one just yet. 15 years, and he still doesn't have a set says something to the rarity of this itemSummydad1 wrote:Man those are cool. Do these ever pop up on the eBay? I should probably own the X-O and the Solar!
Dinesh lived in Hong Kong, so I understand why he would want them.
But, what's the connection to Hong Kong for a regular collector?
I'm still trying to wrap my head around the circular logic that says rare is always more desirable because rare books are more desirable.
We have lots of examples of Valiant Entertainment books which are store or convention exclusives and extremely rare (500 copies).
But, if I've never been to that store or that convention... I feel like those books also have a "foreign" aspect to them. Imagine having a list of the most desirable Valiant comics and it specifically mentions the Podunk Mid-America Convention variant.
I get that there will be exceptions... the DMG variants for Harbinger and Bloodshot make sense because it was the announcement of the major investment in Valiant by the DMG movie studios, which happened in China. That has big implications for all of Valiant fandom. I've never been to China, but as a Valiant fan, I get why those particular Chinese variants have a big appeal to Valiant fans everywhere.
I don't get why Podunk Mid-America Convention variants matter, or Hong Kong 1990s Valiants, or any other "what does this have to do with me" variants would be at the top of anyone's list.
Every collector is obviously different, but there's something to be said for the consensus within a collecting community.
Hong Kong doesn't have any meaning to the Valiant collecting community as a whole, so why would its 1990s variants?
That being said, I won't be surprised if the books sell for $1,000+ someday. That only takes one buyer.
But whether the whole Valiant fan community should consider them must-haves, or "holy grails", I'm stuck on why...
because anything can be rare. What else has it got going for it? (They're not even good reads.)
- DirtbagSailor
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Re: Best way to spend 1000 dollars for speculation
Greg,
The OP was asking about speculation books. To be fair, I’m willing to bet that if he had a few of the Hong Kong books right now and tossed them on eBay he would make a surprising return (assuming he didn’t pay a ton for them to begin with of course).
I do agree with you as a collector; however, also recognize certain realities of perceived value.
The OP was asking about speculation books. To be fair, I’m willing to bet that if he had a few of the Hong Kong books right now and tossed them on eBay he would make a surprising return (assuming he didn’t pay a ton for them to begin with of course).
I do agree with you as a collector; however, also recognize certain realities of perceived value.
As for the evolutionary explanation, I can only speculate that possessing something rare and perceived valuable by the social group increased the bargaining power of individuals, and made them more powerful, admired and increased their social value.
DBS
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- nycjadie
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Re: Best way to spend 1000 dollars for speculation
I went comic book hunting in HK a few years ago. No such luck.DirtbagSailor wrote:Guess it is time for me to make another Hong Kong trip. A lot of people moved from Hong Kong to Vancouver in the 90's also. So it is possible they may be sitting in a collection or two in Canada.
- DirtbagSailor
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Re: Best way to spend 1000 dollars for speculation
nycjadie wrote:I went comic book hunting in HK a few years ago. No such luck.DirtbagSailor wrote:Guess it is time for me to make another Hong Kong trip. A lot of people moved from Hong Kong to Vancouver in the 90's also. So it is possible they may be sitting in a collection or two in Canada.
DBS
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- greg
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Re: Best way to spend 1000 dollars for speculation
I'll grant that anyone who could locate Hong Kong 1990s Valiant editions for $5 or less would indeed be making a wise investment for speculation.DirtbagSailor wrote:Greg,
The OP was asking about speculation books. To be fair, I’m willing to bet that if he had a few of the Hong Kong books right now and tossed them on eBay he would make a surprising return (assuming he didn’t pay a ton for them to begin with of course).
I do agree with you as a collector; however, also recognize certain realities of perceived value.
As for the evolutionary explanation, I can only speculate that possessing something rare and perceived valuable by the social group increased the bargaining power of individuals, and made them more powerful, admired and increased their social value.
However, I'll quote from the same source that you did above and point out that Hong Kong 1990s Valiant editions don't have any inherent meaning for Valiant or Valiant fans, similar to an original jersey for the leading all-time basketball scorer in the Ghanaian league, despite being extremely rare.
"I bet you that right now there is an original jersey somewhere from the leading all-time basketball scorer in the Ghanaian league, and it is extremely rare, but yet neither me nor you nor practically almost anyone wants it. While an original MJ jersey from the flu game would be quite a hit. My point is that for a good to be wanted it shouldn't only be rare, but be actually something of value. Rarity of something doesn't by itself imply value and cost." -M. Stojanovikj, August 2015
- kjjohanson
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Re: Best way to spend 1000 dollars for speculation
If you're going to go with the Quantum & Woody (1997) Retailer Review as the first appearance, then shouldn't the Retailer Review of Savage #1 be considered the first appearance as well?DirtbagSailor wrote:For VEI, it is a little different.
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Harbinger #3 (Zircher 1:20 Variant) (2012) - 1st Livewire - MODERN version that is basically an entirely new character and one of the most prominent (and capable) female characters that exists in the Valiant Universe.
Divinity #1 (LaRosa 1:40 Variant) (2015) - 1st Divinity, less than 350 copies exist
Divinity #3 (LaRosa 1:20 Variant) (2015) - 1st Myshka, 1st Kazmir
Divinity III: The Stalinverse #1 (Gorham 1:50 Variant) (2016) - 1st Red Legend, 1st Red Brigade
Eternity #1 (Massafera 1:40 Variant) (2017) - 1st, well, a lot of people. Not yet sure because we are not yet sure.
Shadowman #5 (Grampa 1:125 Line Variant) (2012) - 1st Shan Fong (new Dr. Mirage)
Shadowman #13 (Templesmith 1:20 Variant) (2012) - 1st Punk Mambo
Shadowman #13 (Davis 1:50 Variant) (2012) - 1st Punk Mambo
Ninjak #1 (LaRosa Gold Variant) (2015) - 1st Roku
Savage #1 (LaRosa Variant) (2015) - 1st Savage, less than 350 copies exist
Harbinger #1 (DMG)
Bloodshot #1 (DMG)
Wild Card:
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Book of Death #1 (2015) - 1st War Mother (Early Design), 1st, well, a lot of people. Not yet sure because we are not yet sure.
The problem with Book of Death #1 (ANY variant really) is that there are so many copies available. YES, 100% there are a TON of 1st appearances; however, many of those have not yet made their full appearances or become household names. IF they do, then YES, 100% this books will be a "thing" in its less common variants. Until then, it is a book that is presently VERY inexpensive and overlooked. It all sort of depends on what happens...
If you're not a *SQUEE*, you're okay with me.
- greg
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Re: Best way to spend 1000 dollars for speculation
I don't think Retailer Reviews should (ever) count as first appearances. Collecting comics as a "regular person" is about collecting the comics that are available to a "regular person". Anything that is retailer-specific, not solicited for regular customers, and purposefully intended to get retailers to "order the real thing" can't itself be "the real thing". It's a preview by definition. Retailers get to see the characters before the customers can officially start collecting them.kjjohanson wrote:If you're going to go with the Quantum & Woody (1997) Retailer Review as the first appearance, then shouldn't the Retailer Review of Savage #1 be considered the first appearance as well?
The market may have previews that sell for more money than the first (regular) appearances, but that's usually a reflection of book scarcity, not "true" first appearances.
Spawn #1 (all one million of them) are the true first appearance of Spawn. Previews of Spawn like Rust #1 or Malibu Sun #13 aren't first appearances of Spawn. They're advertisements to get retailers excited to order the real thing. The real thing is Spawn #1. Rust #1 or Malibu Sun #13 might sell for more than Spawn #1, but that's not because they're the first appearance. It's because there are fewer of them.
Same story here.
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Re: Best way to spend 1000 dollars for speculation
Great Thread!! Informative, even if you had most of these books on your short list already...
The hunt continues...
The hunt continues...
#StayValiant
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Re: Best way to spend 1000 dollars for speculation
bc does have a lot of good stuff from HK (found good stuff up there and seattle z0my guess is it came over as people left before the hand off to china ??