Faith Solo Film Announcement Coming Later Today?

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Re: Faith Solo Film Announcement Coming Later Today?

Post by possumgrease »

Ryan wrote: The majority of comic book fans are overweight, balding, average looking men, so why don't any of the heroes look like that?
Well, now there's this guy:
Image

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Re: Faith Solo Film Announcement Coming Later Today?

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Re: Faith Solo Film Announcement Coming Later Today?

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Re: Faith Solo Film Announcement Coming Later Today?

Post by Shadowman99 »

Not all that thrilled by this announcement to be honest. Out of all the Valiant characters/titles that could have been announced for the next film, Faith is probably bottom of my list. There are just more interesting/exciting characters out there in the VU imo.

However, as someone else suggested, if 'Faith' serves to introduce the Harbinger team to the Valiant Cinematic Universe (or whatever it is) as a means toward following the Bloodshot/Harbinger 5-film plan then I can get on board with that. If it's simply a 'Faith' film, I'll probably wait until it's pressed to DVD and then check it out just out of curiosity.

DMG clearly recognise the success that the comic had and figure this will turn a quick buck for them and bring much-needed attention toward Valiant in general so it's clear to me why this has been announced, but it doesn't mean it captures my interest.

I'll wait to see the final production before I make any more judgement on it.
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Re: Faith Solo Film Announcement Coming Later Today?

Post by jmatt »

Shadowman99 wrote:...figure this will turn a quick buck
I'm pretty sure that buck will be anything but quick. Movies are a long slog and lots of work and risky.

Gimmicks like Hillary on a Faith cover, now that's a quick buck.

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Re: Faith Solo Film Announcement Coming Later Today?

Post by markie7235 »

Apparently there's also an article on the front of MSN.com website today about this:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/wha ... li=BBnbcA0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I did have to laugh though upon reading this quote in the article: "Her size has never been portrayed as an issue, or anything that other people really have a problem with. It's definitely not something that she has a problem with. She's very comfortable with herself. I'm not going to ignore her size, but I don't want it to be a big issue or a big plot line with her, and I think it would be out of character to make it that."

Really?!? Because as I recall in the original 1990's Harbinger run, EVERYONE made fun of her for her weight, especially her own team. I mean, they called her Zeppelin after the blimp instead of referring to her as Zephyr which is the name she chose for herself. Issues #1-#6 had no end of harassing weight related cracks made about her, including by those they were fighting.

Not a big deal I guess, but still, just funny to see that quote since it's categorically not true.

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Re: Faith Solo Film Announcement Coming Later Today?

Post by bygranddesign »

I think this is great news!

I will say that i think it would be a mistake to downplay her weight. I liked the way her character was portrayed in the original and in Dysart's take on the character. Valiant is about a supehero world with a sort of grounded realism and so lets be REAL - the world is horribly cruel. And so an overweight superhero character would be mocked and abused to some extent. Its a great opportunity to show this behavior as cruel and to cheer when the one that was bullied is triumphant in the end.

Obviously this is a tried and true premise - Peter Parker was the weak nerd who was bullied by the school athlete .. and became the powerful hero. Rooting for the outcast to be the hero of the story is a winning formula - where Faith deviates from the formula is this sometimes interesting (although mostly frustrating) debate of - are we encouraging unhealthy behavior by glorifying an overweight superhero..?

The fact that I have seen such horrific VENOM spewed by people who are so up in arms over an overweight hero shows how necessary it truly is to have someone like Faith portrayed in a movie and confronting these realities.

So I think she is probably one of the most important characters in the Valiant stable in terms of potential cultural importance by tapping into segments of the population that are not at this time being represented in the superhero cinematic universe.
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Re: Faith Solo Film Announcement Coming Later Today?

Post by bygranddesign »

Ryan wrote:I'm with people who think she works better as a supporting character. She brings the innocence and lightheartedness to the team and can be a good relief from the more serious characters. I never thought she was that compelling as a solo character though. Even in the 90s series when she took over as leader at issue 26 that's pretty much when the series went downhill fast.

It just seems like people in hollywood/the media trying to show how 'inclusive' they are. The thing is people like this kind of fiction to escape and fantasize about idealized humanity. The majority of comic book fans are overweight, balding, average looking men, so why don't any of the heroes look like that? Because that's not why people read this stuff.

If it's all about everyone being 'included', where are the elderly heroes? Or heroes with lazy eye? It's just silly, no one wants this except executives who get to pat themselves on the back for how 'woke' they are.
Have you read Marvel Comics? This is why Marvel ate DC's lunch when they started pumping out comics in the 60's and 70's it was because they did have flawed characters as their heroes.

Peter Parker was a weak, nerd that becomes a superhero - nerdy comic fans identified with that.

X-Men are "freaks" who are demonized by society -- more identification for the self identified "freaks and geeks" who read comics

(professor X is an OLD BALD guy by the way.)

Faith is an overweight girl who is a superhero -- Its not "woke" to have her represented on the movie screen - its actually interesting and long overdue. Maybe it will be a dud movie but I'd like to see it tried.

I heard this same sort of resistance to Black Panther. Is that the movie you are thinking of when you say executives are patting themselves on the back for being "inclusive"? The movie that made a billion dollars? Yeah, you bet they are patting themselves on the back...

And what Valiant comics are you reading that you think this universe represents some idealized version of super-heroism?

Peter Stanchek? The drug addict who basically raped Kris? Bloodshot -- Government made killing machine? Armstrong -- The fat drunk? Aric? The barbarian wannabe King who wanted to forcibly take over Romania?

Valiant Universe is all about flawed heroes and complex villains

Don't you find it strange in a society in which we look the other way when characters have personality flaws -- Vigilante superheroes who kill people are always very popular (i love them too -- I love me some ultra-violence at times)

But an overweight superhero? OMG! We can't have THAT portrayed to mainstream society!
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Re: Faith Solo Film Announcement Coming Later Today?

Post by TheFerg714 »

bygranddesign wrote:
Ryan wrote:I'm with people who think she works better as a supporting character. She brings the innocence and lightheartedness to the team and can be a good relief from the more serious characters. I never thought she was that compelling as a solo character though. Even in the 90s series when she took over as leader at issue 26 that's pretty much when the series went downhill fast.

It just seems like people in hollywood/the media trying to show how 'inclusive' they are. The thing is people like this kind of fiction to escape and fantasize about idealized humanity. The majority of comic book fans are overweight, balding, average looking men, so why don't any of the heroes look like that? Because that's not why people read this stuff.

If it's all about everyone being 'included', where are the elderly heroes? Or heroes with lazy eye? It's just silly, no one wants this except executives who get to pat themselves on the back for how 'woke' they are.
Have you read Marvel Comics? This is why Marvel ate DC's lunch when they started pumping out comics in the 60's and 70's it was because they did have flawed characters as their heroes.

Peter Parker was a weak, nerd that becomes a superhero - nerdy comic fans identified with that.

X-Men are "freaks" who are demonized by society -- more identification for the self identified "freaks and geeks" who read comics

(professor X is an OLD BALD guy by the way.)

Faith is an overweight girl who is a superhero -- Its not "woke" to have her represented on the movie screen - its actually interesting and long overdue. Maybe it will be a dud movie but I'd like to see it tried.

I heard this same sort of resistance to Black Panther. Is that the movie you are thinking of when you say executives are patting themselves on the back for being "inclusive"? The movie that made a billion dollars? Yeah, you bet they are patting themselves on the back...

And what Valiant comics are you reading that you think this universe represents some idealized version of super-heroism?

Peter Stanchek? The drug addict who basically raped Kris? Bloodshot -- Government made killing machine? Armstrong -- The fat drunk? Aric? The barbarian wannabe King who wanted to forcibly take over Romania?

Valiant Universe is all about flawed heroes and complex villains


Don't you find it strange in a society in which we look the other way when characters have personality flaws -- Vigilante superheroes who kill people are always very popular (i love them too -- I love me some ultra-violence at times)

But an overweight superhero? OMG! We can't have THAT portrayed to mainstream society!
First of all, I can't agree more with your bolded statements. However, I can see both sides here. On one hand, I whole-heartedly agree that it will be nice to see a different type of person being just as super as any other superhero, while on the other hand, it only makes sense that a morbidly obese person would start to lose a little weight while she's saving lives. You'd think someone who strives to be the best superhero she can be would maybe work out a little. I just think it's a little silly that a) her weight is barely ever mentioned in her solo series, even though we can read her thoughts, and b) she never loses weight. I would find her story exponentially more relatable and "hero-like" if we saw her go through a journey of dealing with her weight issues and growing as a person. :?

That said, the biggest issue here isn't whether this is just virtue signaling or not (it is). Faith just doesn't work very well on her own. The whole reason for her existence is to offset the the grimdark, morally-questionable "heroes" of the Valiant U, specifically the Renegades. On her own she's just another superhero. Harbinger should have came first. Faith would have been a main character and then they could've made a spinoff with Faith depending on reception of the character.

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Re: Faith Solo Film Announcement Coming Later Today?

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bygranddesign wrote:
Ryan wrote:I'm with people who think she works better as a supporting character. She brings the innocence and lightheartedness to the team and can be a good relief from the more serious characters. I never thought she was that compelling as a solo character though. Even in the 90s series when she took over as leader at issue 26 that's pretty much when the series went downhill fast.

It just seems like people in hollywood/the media trying to show how 'inclusive' they are. The thing is people like this kind of fiction to escape and fantasize about idealized humanity. The majority of comic book fans are overweight, balding, average looking men, so why don't any of the heroes look like that? Because that's not why people read this stuff.

If it's all about everyone being 'included', where are the elderly heroes? Or heroes with lazy eye? It's just silly, no one wants this except executives who get to pat themselves on the back for how 'woke' they are.
Have you read Marvel Comics? This is why Marvel ate DC's lunch when they started pumping out comics in the 60's and 70's it was because they did have flawed characters as their heroes.

Peter Parker was a weak, nerd that becomes a superhero - nerdy comic fans identified with that.

X-Men are "freaks" who are demonized by society -- more identification for the self identified "freaks and geeks" who read comics

(professor X is an OLD BALD guy by the way.)

Faith is an overweight girl who is a superhero -- Its not "woke" to have her represented on the movie screen - its actually interesting and long overdue. Maybe it will be a dud movie but I'd like to see it tried.

I heard this same sort of resistance to Black Panther. Is that the movie you are thinking of when you say executives are patting themselves on the back for being "inclusive"? The movie that made a billion dollars? Yeah, you bet they are patting themselves on the back...

And what Valiant comics are you reading that you think this universe represents some idealized version of super-heroism?

Peter Stanchek? The drug addict who basically raped Kris? Bloodshot -- Government made killing machine? Armstrong -- The fat drunk? Aric? The barbarian wannabe King who wanted to forcibly take over Romania?

Valiant Universe is all about flawed heroes and complex villains

Don't you find it strange in a society in which we look the other way when characters have personality flaws -- Vigilante superheroes who kill people are always very popular (i love them too -- I love me some ultra-violence at times)

But an overweight superhero? OMG! We can't have THAT portrayed to mainstream society!
You're way misconstruing what I said, I never said flawed characters are bad and what this has to do with Black Panther I have no idea. Nice way to argue against things that no one said and that virtually no one would agree with (1. Superheroes need to be idealized and without flaws and 2. Black Panther was a horrible idea for a movie because he's (gasp!) a minority)

Not only does Black Panther have a long history of being a beloved character in the Marvel Universe, but who was the first Marvel character with a successful movie series? Oh yeah, Blade, played by Wesley Snipes. Audiences want good characters and good stories, race and identity is only important to the people who are obsessed with it and believe everyone can be easily boiled down and understood through race and identity alone.

Which brings us back to Faith and my original point. IMO Faith is not a character who has been developed as a good main character. Where are the classic stories? Where are the legions of fans? Her comic series keep getting cancelled due to low sales.

My position is this: the only reason they are green lighting this movie is to virtue signal (aka look at how woke we are), it's not because the character has developed an actual fanbase due to being an interesting character with engaging stories. That's all. Feel free to disagree and argue against that, but please refrain from insinuating racism and putting words in my mouth.

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Re: Faith Solo Film Announcement Coming Later Today?

Post by SlyTrooper »

bygranddesign wrote:Have you read Marvel Comics? This is why Marvel ate DC's lunch when they started pumping out comics in the 60's and 70's it was because they did have flawed characters as their heroes.

Peter Parker was a weak, nerd that becomes a superhero - nerdy comic fans identified with that.

X-Men are "freaks" who are demonized by society -- more identification for the self identified "freaks and geeks" who read comics

(professor X is an OLD BALD guy by the way.)

Faith is an overweight girl who is a superhero -- Its not "woke" to have her represented on the movie screen - its actually interesting and long overdue. Maybe it will be a dud movie but I'd like to see it tried.

I heard this same sort of resistance to Black Panther. Is that the movie you are thinking of when you say executives are patting themselves on the back for being "inclusive"? The movie that made a billion dollars? Yeah, you bet they are patting themselves on the back...

And what Valiant comics are you reading that you think this universe represents some idealized version of super-heroism?

Peter Stanchek? The drug addict who basically raped Kris? Bloodshot -- Government made killing machine? Armstrong -- The fat drunk? Aric? The barbarian wannabe King who wanted to forcibly take over Romania?

Valiant Universe is all about flawed heroes and complex villains

Don't you find it strange in a society in which we look the other way when characters have personality flaws -- Vigilante superheroes who kill people are always very popular (i love them too -- I love me some ultra-violence at times)

But an overweight superhero? OMG! We can't have THAT portrayed to mainstream society!
You have to look at the difference between Faith and everyone else you mentioned. Firstly, Pete is never given a pass for raping Kris or being a drug addict. He is often told how much of a bad person he is, where as Faith's bad habits are never brought up negatively. Then you've got Spider-Man, who is a perfectly healthy character who's only real flaw is being in a school environment where difference is criticised. And with the X-Men, everything you've just said about them is not something they chose; it's how they were born. Faith wasn't born overweight; she has the potential to change.

Now, the whole thing about resistance to Black Panther, that isn't in anyway similar. Again, race is something you can't actively change. And let's not pretend that being critical of overweight people is anywhere near comparable to racism.

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Re: Faith Solo Film Announcement Coming Later Today?

Post by bygranddesign »

I brought up the Black Panther bit because i heard these same arguments before that movie came out. Why is Black Panther being made into a movie when (insert character name) should get a movie instead? PC culture run amok. Virtue-signaling ... etc etc etc

But I was mainly picking apart this argument
It just seems like people in hollywood/the media trying to show how 'inclusive' they are. The thing is people like this kind of fiction to escape and fantasize about idealized humanity. The majority of comic book fans are overweight, balding, average looking men, so why don't any of the heroes look like that? Because that's not why people read this stuff.
Which it seems you now conceded was wrong to say, right?

Besides the points I made about Marvel and our very own Valiant,

how about The Watchmen which was the DECONSTRUCTION of the superhero mythos? Which also by the way featured a middle-aged, balding, fat guy trying to become a hero (niteowl).

The point being there are many different types of escapism and not everyone wants some shallow version of an idealized humanity

Having an overweight person as a superhero represented on screen is just as realistic (if not more realistic) than the idea that every hero has super physiques especially if you are trying to ground the universe with more realism.

So now you moved on to this argument
Which brings us back to Faith and my original point. IMO Faith is not a character who has been developed as a good main character. Where are the classic stories? Where are the legions of fans? Her comic series keep getting cancelled due to low sales.

My position is this: the only reason they are green lighting this movie is to virtue signal (aka look at how woke we are), it's not because the character has developed an actual fanbase due to being an interesting character with engaging stories. That's all. Feel free to disagree and argue against that, but please refrain from insinuating racism and putting words in my mouth.
A comic fan outside of any knowledge of the Valiant Universe would say the same thing about all these characters - None of them have classic stories. If you were an objective Comic Historian maybe Pre-Unity/Unity makes a top 100 list of greatest comic storylines?

There isn't a huge fanbase for any of these characters - 8-10K a month in sales for most of these books?

So lets first dial down expectations for all of these characters - None of these characters are going to be introduced to the mainstream with some great fanbase with recognizable classic stories. The Valiant Universe is not going to come anywhere close to the Marvel or DC cinematic universes.

Any type of success is going to be based on (of course) telling a great story but also tapping into something that is not being represented sufficiently by the big 2.

And there are also many many movies and TV shows that no one knew was a comic book.

The advantage of making movies out of virtually unknown comicbook characters is that the ideas have already been developed. Its a farm system of ideas that are waiting to be developed and possibly can be a hit in the mainstream.

Also, what movie executives care about MOST is making money and keeping their jobs -- They usually RESIST change. Virtue-signaling is probably low on their list of concerns.

But I do think there is potential VALUE in the idea of a superhero who is an overweight girl and its not some slapstick comedy in which the joke is seeing a fat person save the day. I personally think there is something interesting in that .. and if done right, can have some positive impact and resonance and yeah also make a little money for some movie executives. It also probably wouldn't cost much to make a good Faith movie which is probably also very appealing. Maybe cost 20-30 million? If the movie makes double that that would be a big win.

But I completely understand that its not everyone's cup of tea .. Faith is not the movie I would be most excited to see from the Valiant universe but I do take issue with these arguments against it.
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Re: Faith Solo Film Announcement Coming Later Today?

Post by lobo »

markie7235 wrote:Apparently there's also an article on the front of MSN.com website today about this:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/wha ... li=BBnbcA0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I did have to laugh though upon reading this quote in the article: "Her size has never been portrayed as an issue, or anything that other people really have a problem with. It's definitely not something that she has a problem with. She's very comfortable with herself. I'm not going to ignore her size, but I don't want it to be a big issue or a big plot line with her, and I think it would be out of character to make it that."

Really?!? Because as I recall in the original 1990's Harbinger run, EVERYONE made fun of her for her weight, especially her own team. I mean, they called her Zeppelin after the blimp instead of referring to her as Zephyr which is the name she chose for herself. Issues #1-#6 had no end of harassing weight related cracks made about her, including by those they were fighting.

Not a big deal I guess, but still, just funny to see that quote since it's categorically not true.
You're dating yourself by choosing to reference the 90s series and the fat references/insults as opposed to the current books which hardly make issue of her weight at all. The 25 odd years in between stories display the shift in modern society and current attitudes of what was allowed in a comic years ago is not a focal point anymore for today's writers, publishers, and younger fans. The modern Faith hits a certain niche that a movie studio figures is a safe bet to develop. I'm sure its the VEI material that will be referenced for development as opposed to whatever they can pull from the original run Valiant material.

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Re: Faith Solo Film Announcement Coming Later Today?

Post by bygranddesign »

TheFerg714 wrote: On one hand, I whole-heartedly agree that it will be nice to see a different type of person being just as super as any other superhero, while on the other hand, it only makes sense that a morbidly obese person would start to lose a little weight while she's saving lives. You'd think someone who strives to be the best superhero she can be would maybe work out a little. I just think it's a little silly that a) her weight is barely ever mentioned in her solo series, even though we can read her thoughts, and b) she never loses weight. I would find her story exponentially more relatable and "hero-like" if we saw her go through a journey of dealing with her weight issues and growing as a person. :?
I agree that I actually like the idea of the character dealing with her weight issue more and having it being more of a part of the running narrative. But I also see the merits of not really talking about it. I think this is a situation where the writer has flexibility on what they want to focus on. The current writer doesn't want to focus on it. Dysart touched on it a little bit. I could see a different writer having a different approach.

But what I will take issue with is this idea that she should just automatically be superfit. Its actually pretty hard and unrealistic to be built like most of these comicbook superhero characters even if your full time job was saving lives. I've met plenty of people that are cops, firemen and in the army - that are normal looking people (even obese). She has a 9-5 job, right? In which she sits at a computer all day. Her powers also come from the mind - telekinesis. She doesn't have to be superfit to do most of the things she does.
I don't think she should be portrayed as morbidly obese but there are plenty of people who try to work out and eat right and still have a tough time losing weight. Being slightly obese and being superhero should not be seen as unrealistic.

Honestly what I find unrealistic is that Professor X is so skinny. He is in a wheelchair and uses the power of the mind to defeat enemies and he is super rich. Go eat some twinkies.
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Re: Faith Solo Film Announcement Coming Later Today?

Post by bygranddesign »

SlyTrooper wrote: You have to look at the difference between Faith and everyone else you mentioned. Firstly, Pete is never given a pass for raping Kris or being a drug addict. He is often told how much of a bad person he is, where as Faith's bad habits are never brought up negatively. Then you've got Spider-Man, who is a perfectly healthy character who's only real flaw is being in a school environment where difference is criticised. And with the X-Men, everything you've just said about them is not something they chose; it's how they were born. Faith wasn't born overweight; she has the potential to change.

Now, the whole thing about resistance to Black Panther, that isn't in anyway similar. Again, race is something you can't actively change. And let's not pretend that being critical of overweight people is anywhere near comparable to racism.
Re-read Dysart's introduction to the character - He directly deals with her weight and how it has negatively impacted her life. She calls herself fat. She says that she was bullied for it.

I'm not sure how much more you want a writer to go into something like this? I don't think there is any reason to constantly harp on it -- this is not like rape or trying to break some nasty habit of killing people in cold blood but I agreed in a previous post that maybe talking about it more would be interesting - If you have a tendency to stress eat for example, probably being hunted by super villains would make that tendency even worse, right? Is that interesting storyline? Maybe the superhero fam can have an intervention with her in which they introduce her to proper diet of fruits and vegetables?

But in the end - the reality is that all of us are managing flaws ... and most of us will not overcome them. But flawed people have the capability of doing great things. And I think that should be the main take away.

And btw, i'm all for my tax dollars going to educational programs designed to encourage kids to eat healthy and be fit. I think all of society benefits in that way. So i'm very sensitive to the idea that I don't want anyone to not work on their weight issues or to put forth a message that having too much weight on you is OK for your health.

But also we must recognize and be sensitive to the fact that people struggle with their weight -- and we shouldn't bully them for it and recognize that they can be heroes too.
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Re: Faith Solo Film Announcement Coming Later Today?

Post by The Dirt Gang »

With the success of Wonder Woman and even Black Panther, I think this makes sense. Those two films did really well and the big difference between those 2 films and other super hero films is that they have minority leads. They both pretty much stayed to the typical super hero film beats. All Sony ultimately cares about is making money and I think they see more of a market for the atypical super hero.

The same could be said for Bloodshot and following more of a Deadpool mold. I saw somewhere that the Venom trailer is the most watched trailer (maybe just super hero trailer) of all time. It seems to me that the markets for the outside the "mainstream' super hero movie is growing.
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Re: Faith Solo Film Announcement Coming Later Today?

Post by SlyTrooper »

bygranddesign wrote:
SlyTrooper wrote: You have to look at the difference between Faith and everyone else you mentioned. Firstly, Pete is never given a pass for raping Kris or being a drug addict. He is often told how much of a bad person he is, where as Faith's bad habits are never brought up negatively. Then you've got Spider-Man, who is a perfectly healthy character who's only real flaw is being in a school environment where difference is criticised. And with the X-Men, everything you've just said about them is not something they chose; it's how they were born. Faith wasn't born overweight; she has the potential to change.

Now, the whole thing about resistance to Black Panther, that isn't in anyway similar. Again, race is something you can't actively change. And let's not pretend that being critical of overweight people is anywhere near comparable to racism.
Re-read Dysart's introduction to the character - He directly deals with her weight and how it has negatively impacted her life. She calls herself fat. She says that she was bullied for it.

I'm not sure how much more you want a writer to go into something like this? I don't think there is any reason to constantly harp on it -- this is not like rape or trying to break some nasty habit of killing people in cold blood but I agreed in a previous post that maybe talking about it more would be interesting - If you have a tendency to stress eat for example, probably being hunted by super villains would make that tendency even worse, right? Is that interesting storyline? Maybe the superhero fam can have an intervention with her in which they introduce her to proper diet of fruits and vegetables?

But in the end - the reality is that all of us are managing flaws ... and most of us will not overcome them. But flawed people have the capability of doing great things. And I think that should be the main take away.

And btw, i'm all for my tax dollars going to educational programs designed to encourage kids to eat healthy and be fit. I think all of society benefits in that way. So i'm very sensitive to the idea that I don't want anyone to not work on their weight issues or to put forth a message that having too much weight on you is OK for your health.

But also we must recognize and be sensitive to the fact that people struggle with their weight -- and we shouldn't bully them for it and recognize that they can be heroes too.
It's less the way they're presented inside the comic and more outside when it comes to Faith. If they never mentioned her weight at all and she just was who she was, then sure, I wouldn't be bothered.

I agree that people who are overweight don't need to be bullied. Having been overweight for most of my life, only getting fit two and a half years ago, this is something I believe I am in the position to comment on. But just because they shouldn't be bullied doesn't mean they need to be positively marketed in comics. Half the time people at Valiant say stuff like "she's overweight but that's not important". Their insistence on emphasising her weight just comes off as glorification to me. People who are overweight aren't going to want to change as much because they now think it's fine because of Faith. When I was losing weight I was inspired by the physique and determination to be the peak of their abilities of characters like Batman and Ninjak. Now what if I looked to Faith as my motivation? Where would I be now? Instead of dieting, running regularly and working out to achieve my physical potential I'd be in denial, eating whatever I wanted and being inactive.

I'm not against the character as much as I'm against the idea of what she's supposed to represent.

Btw, I entirely respect your opinion. I have strong thoughts about this topic because of my own experiences, as I mentioned, so I'm not attacking you just speaking passionately.

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Re: Faith Solo Film Announcement Coming Later Today?

Post by Ryan »

bygranddesign wrote:I brought up the Black Panther bit because i heard these same arguments before that movie came out. Why is Black Panther being made into a movie when (insert character name) should get a movie instead? PC culture run amok. Virtue-signaling ... etc etc etc


I never heard that about about Black Panther, I don't agree with it. Black Panther is an intriguing character with a long history in comics and had been set up in the Avengers movies, it was not virtue signalling in my mind. I have many friends from different African countries, and you should see the pride in their eyes when we talk about Black Panther. It's powerful stuff.
But I was mainly picking apart this argument
It just seems like people in hollywood/the media trying to show how 'inclusive' they are. The thing is people like this kind of fiction to escape and fantasize about idealized humanity. The majority of comic book fans are overweight, balding, average looking men, so why don't any of the heroes look like that? Because that's not why people read this stuff.
Which it seems you now conceded was wrong to say, right?

Besides the points I made about Marvel and our very own Valiant,

how about The Watchmen which was the DECONSTRUCTION of the superhero mythos? Which also by the way featured a middle-aged, balding, fat guy trying to become a hero (niteowl).

The point being there are many different types of escapism and not everyone wants some shallow version of an idealized humanity

Having an overweight person as a superhero represented on screen is just as realistic (if not more realistic) than the idea that every hero has super physiques especially if you are trying to ground the universe with more realism.
No, I stand by my statement. Maybe using the term 'idealized humanity' was too vague and didn't make my point well. You seem to be interpreting it as I'm saying all heroes need to be perfect and flawless. That's not what I mean, but I can see where you would think that.

Spend a day at the comic shop. Look closely at the people coming in to buy comics, take notes on appearance, body type, etc. Then go to the comic racks and flip through all of the current comics. Look closely at the characters in the comics, appearance, body types, etc. I would guess 90-95% of the comic readers have normal or out of shape bodies while 90-95% of comic characters have idealized, super bods. You didn't really need me to tell you that, did you?

All fiction idealizes to a certain extent, watch any tv show and then go outside and look at real people. Just because there are exceptions to the rule like Professor X (who is still very handsome despite being bald) and obscure characters like Nite owl doesn't prove the point that comic readers want to see comics full of average looking and overweight people.
So now you moved on to this argument

A comic fan outside of any knowledge of the Valiant Universe would say the same thing about all these characters - None of them have classic stories. If you were an objective Comic Historian maybe Pre-Unity/Unity makes a top 100 list of greatest comic storylines?
Maybe within the context of comics as a whole, Valiant hasn't had many classic stories that rank with Watchmen and Black Hole or whatever, but that's not what I'm talking about.

Within any fanbase itself, there will be classic storylines and classic stories. Stories that fans love and really define the characters that are read over and over. For example, I'm sure there are classic stories within G.I. Joe comics that the fans love more than others, and that have stood the test of time to be enjoyable many years later. Doesn't mean they're on some comics historian's top 100 list, but these are the stories that build a fanbase and keep it together through the years. If there haven't been any classic storylines with the Valiant characters, why do fans still care about these characters 25+ years later?
There isn't a huge fanbase for any of these characters - 8-10K a month in sales for most of these books?
I think the potential fanbase is much bigger than that. At the height of popularity Valiant characters were hotter than beanie babies. That magic has never been captured again, and maybe it never will, but look at the sales of X-O #1 something like 90,000 just last year? I think there are people who want to get into these characters, but IMO the current storylines aren't exciting enough and don't deliver enough to keep readers around.
So lets first dial down expectations for all of these characters - None of these characters are going to be introduced to the mainstream with some great fanbase with recognizable classic stories. The Valiant Universe is not going to come anywhere close to the Marvel or DC cinematic universes.

Any type of success is going to be based on (of course) telling a great story but also tapping into something that is not being represented sufficiently by the big 2.

And there are also many many movies and TV shows that no one knew was a comic book.

The advantage of making movies out of virtually unknown comicbook characters is that the ideas have already been developed. Its a farm system of ideas that are waiting to be developed and possibly can be a hit in the mainstream.
I agree, all sorts of hit movies have been made from obscure comic properties that no one even knew existed, and bombs have been made from characters with huge comic fanbases. The movies will succeed or fail on their own terms mostly.

So that's why I was asking, what are the classic Faith stories? What makes her compelling as a solo character? If anyone would know, it would be people on here. I thought she was great as a supporting character in early Valiant, but her story doesn't carry a solo book imo.
Also, what movie executives care about MOST is making money and keeping their jobs -- They usually RESIST change. Virtue-signaling is probably low on their list of concerns.

But I do think there is potential VALUE in the idea of a superhero who is an overweight girl and its not some slapstick comedy in which the joke is seeing a fat person save the day. I personally think there is something interesting in that .. and if done right, can have some positive impact and resonance and yeah also make a little money for some movie executives. It also probably wouldn't cost much to make a good Faith movie which is probably also very appealing. Maybe cost 20-30 million? If the movie makes double that that would be a big win.

But I completely understand that its not everyone's cup of tea .. Faith is not the movie I would be most excited to see from the Valiant universe but I do take issue with these arguments against it.
I think you're underestimating the political climate in entertainment these days. Hey if they can make a great movie out of it, then great. Even as a longtime Valiant fan, I still don't feel excited about the prospect of a Faith movie. Is it because I'm a sexist and a fatist? I don't think I am, I just don't think she's a very interesting character :?

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Re: Faith Solo Film Announcement Coming Later Today?

Post by iggy101us »

1st Faith in costume (Harbinger #1 p12) :headbang: :

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Re: Faith Solo Film Announcement Coming Later Today?

Post by iggy101us »

And matching colors:

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Re: Faith Solo Film Announcement Coming Later Today?

Post by Shadowman99 »

She's got that whole 'Bananaman' thing going there I see...
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Re: Faith Solo Film Announcement Coming Later Today?

Post by nonplayer »

I'll belive it when there is a trailer. You can announce things till the cows come home.
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Re: Faith Solo Film Announcement Coming Later Today?

Post by markie7235 »

lobo wrote:
markie7235 wrote:Apparently there's also an article on the front of MSN.com website today about this:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/wha ... li=BBnbcA0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I did have to laugh though upon reading this quote in the article: "Her size has never been portrayed as an issue, or anything that other people really have a problem with. It's definitely not something that she has a problem with. She's very comfortable with herself. I'm not going to ignore her size, but I don't want it to be a big issue or a big plot line with her, and I think it would be out of character to make it that."

Really?!? Because as I recall in the original 1990's Harbinger run, EVERYONE made fun of her for her weight, especially her own team. I mean, they called her Zeppelin after the blimp instead of referring to her as Zephyr which is the name she chose for herself. Issues #1-#6 had no end of harassing weight related cracks made about her, including by those they were fighting.

Not a big deal I guess, but still, just funny to see that quote since it's categorically not true.
You're dating yourself by choosing to reference the 90s series and the fat references/insults as opposed to the current books which hardly make issue of her weight at all. The 25 odd years in between stories display the shift in modern society and current attitudes of what was allowed in a comic years ago is not a focal point anymore for today's writers, publishers, and younger fans. The modern Faith hits a certain niche that a movie studio figures is a safe bet to develop. I'm sure its the VEI material that will be referenced for development as opposed to whatever they can pull from the original run Valiant material.
Get your point, and I agree to an extent, but that's like saying when Spiderman made a deal with Memphisto and ret-conned his world to before he married Mary Jane and his friend Harry Osborn died suddenly wipes out existence of those 500 comics inbetween. You can re-imagine or re-define your characters, but that doesn't eliminate the history of the characters. Times change (thank god), and I like the re-approach to Faith, but I still stand by my statement that Faith's weight was constantly a heckling point in the original run. And those books are just a much part of the Harbinger series and history as Dysart's run. Those first 6 issues of Harbingers from the 90's were darn good books, even today. Not really sure how that's "dating" myself. I'm sure I'm not the only one here who read the original Harbinger series or enjoyed it.


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