Dr. Mirage returns!

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Re: Dr. Mirage returns!

Post by FormerReader »

kinggirlfriend wrote:That Phillip Tan cover looks great!
Indeed! Very cool!

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Re: Dr. Mirage returns!

Post by Dallow Spicer1 »

kjjohanson wrote:
Dallow Spicer1 wrote:
Jrosen wrote:
Dallow Spicer1 wrote:Noticing a political pattern some of with Valiant’s recent hires, makes me question the motivation behind it? Once again this is not the hiring of top, established talent. Given the low number of books Valiant puts out you may be forgiven for thinking they’d go for a more tried and tested route. :?
I don't see the poltical pattern in any of the stories you are alluding to, and I'd much rather them go out and pick some risky writers/artists that aren't married to the same-old same-old.
Actually in Livewire her brother turns out to be ‘non-binary’ and in Forgotten Queen obviously a central point of the story is that she is lesbian. However, that isn’t my point, it’s the *choice* of writers and so far they’ve been very mediocre. What’s the purpose of the company now, to make great stories or teach us lessons? :?
And simply depicting a particular characteristic is political?
I think there is a political agenda when a non-binary writer writes a non-binary character as one of the main antagonist in the story, however, once again that’s not the point I’m making. I’m saying (some) editorial at Valiant appear to be selecting their political twitter clique for writing jobs to further the career of those people rather than choosing top or better talent. In other words putting their friends before the company or the fans. The number one and only priority should be producing the best books possible, not selecting their friends to work on books and produce mediocre stories.

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Re: Dr. Mirage returns!

Post by Dallow Spicer1 »

nycjadie wrote:The recent hires are this: Not the average white comic book guy.

That's fine, and probably a really good thing, but that's generally who buys comic books, especially hero books. So if you hire a pretty young editor with tons of makeup, who mixes up headline characters at a convention panel, bats her eyes and sings out words to get a reaction, then you have to deal with the fact that regular comic book dudes are going to question the hire.

Maybe. Maybe. Maybe a great story can get past things like that, with amazing interiors and covers. But not hanging out at the booth, connecting with fans (or even artists), etc. is not going to help either.

I'm just watching on the sidelines. Not picking sides.

Hmmm I’d say there was slightly more to it than that. In the sense that there’s a clique based on political beliefs and ‘coincidentally’ when one editor arrives more members of that clique followed soon after. Ultimately though, the issue is the mediocrity of what’s being produced. If said writers were coming in and smashing it out of the ground (eg Dysart who is also politically very left wing) then I’d be less bothered. In fact Dysart is a great example, I don’t agree with his politics but I love his work.

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Re: Dr. Mirage returns!

Post by kjjohanson »

Dallow Spicer1 wrote:
kjjohanson wrote:
Dallow Spicer1 wrote:
Jrosen wrote:
Dallow Spicer1 wrote:Noticing a political pattern some of with Valiant’s recent hires, makes me question the motivation behind it? Once again this is not the hiring of top, established talent. Given the low number of books Valiant puts out you may be forgiven for thinking they’d go for a more tried and tested route. :?
I don't see the poltical pattern in any of the stories you are alluding to, and I'd much rather them go out and pick some risky writers/artists that aren't married to the same-old same-old.
Actually in Livewire her brother turns out to be ‘non-binary’ and in Forgotten Queen obviously a central point of the story is that she is lesbian. However, that isn’t my point, it’s the *choice* of writers and so far they’ve been very mediocre. What’s the purpose of the company now, to make great stories or teach us lessons? :?
And simply depicting a particular characteristic is political?
I think there is a political agenda when a non-binary writer writes a non-binary character as one of the main antagonist in the story, however, once again that’s not the point I’m making. I’m saying (some) editorial at Valiant appear to be selecting their political twitter clique for writing jobs to further the career of those people rather than choosing top or better talent. In other words putting their friends before the company or the fans. The number one and only priority should be producing the best books possible, not selecting their friends to work on books and produce mediocre stories.
The problem with this is the implication that there is a 'default' and having a character outside of that is political. A common writing tip is to write what you know, so I don't see a problem with introducing characters that the writer thinks can offer a perspective that you don't normally see. I don't want to read what I already read.
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Re: Dr. Mirage returns!

Post by Dallow Spicer1 »

kjjohanson wrote:
Dallow Spicer1 wrote:
kjjohanson wrote:
Dallow Spicer1 wrote:
Jrosen wrote:
Dallow Spicer1 wrote:Noticing a political pattern some of with Valiant’s recent hires, makes me question the motivation behind it? Once again this is not the hiring of top, established talent. Given the low number of books Valiant puts out you may be forgiven for thinking they’d go for a more tried and tested route. :?
I don't see the poltical pattern in any of the stories you are alluding to, and I'd much rather them go out and pick some risky writers/artists that aren't married to the same-old same-old.
Actually in Livewire her brother turns out to be ‘non-binary’ and in Forgotten Queen obviously a central point of the story is that she is lesbian. However, that isn’t my point, it’s the *choice* of writers and so far they’ve been very mediocre. What’s the purpose of the company now, to make great stories or teach us lessons? :?
And simply depicting a particular characteristic is political?
I think there is a political agenda when a non-binary writer writes a non-binary character as one of the main antagonist in the story, however, once again that’s not the point I’m making. I’m saying (some) editorial at Valiant appear to be selecting their political twitter clique for writing jobs to further the career of those people rather than choosing top or better talent. In other words putting their friends before the company or the fans. The number one and only priority should be producing the best books possible, not selecting their friends to work on books and produce mediocre stories.
The problem with this is the implication that there is a 'default' and having a character outside of that is political. A common writing tip is to write what you know, so I don't see a problem with introducing characters that the writer thinks can offer a perspective that you don't normally see. I don't want to read what I already read.
I’m not sure you’re reading what I’m writing? The main issue I’m calling out is that some editors are selecting less talented writers because of their political views and as a consequence they are delivering mediocre books.

I’m questioning the motives of the editors and what they are trying to achieve. I believe they could get better writers who would deliver more enjoyable books for the fans to read, however, they select their friends instead who share common political views.

I’m not sure I can explain that any clearer :?

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Re: Dr. Mirage returns!

Post by Jrosen »

Dallow Spicer1 wrote: I’m not sure you’re reading what I’m writing? The main issue I’m calling out is that some editors are selecting less talented writers because of their political views and as a consequence they are delivering mediocre books.

I’m questioning the motives of the editors and what they are trying to achieve. I believe they could get better writers who would deliver more enjoyable books for the fans to read, however, they select their friends instead who share common political views.

I’m not sure I can explain that any clearer :?
So Tini Howard, who just signed an exclusive contract with Marvel, and Magdalene Visaggio, who has been nominated for an Eisner award, are less talented writers?

I don't know what you are looking for, but they seem to be pretty highly qualified based on their credentials. Is it that you dislike lgbtq characters in Valiant stories, don't care for lgbtq writers contributing to Valiant, or both? It's not the qualifications of the writers, because it is obvious that many important people within the comics industry, not just "their friends" at Valiant, believe they are doing a fantastic job.

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Re: Dr. Mirage returns!

Post by Dallow Spicer1 »

Jrosen wrote:
Dallow Spicer1 wrote: I’m not sure you’re reading what I’m writing? The main issue I’m calling out is that some editors are selecting less talented writers because of their political views and as a consequence they are delivering mediocre books.

I’m questioning the motives of the editors and what they are trying to achieve. I believe they could get better writers who would deliver more enjoyable books for the fans to read, however, they select their friends instead who share common political views.

I’m not sure I can explain that any clearer :?
So Tini Howard, who just signed an exclusive contract with Marvel, and Magdalene Visaggio, who has been nominated for an Eisner award, are less talented writers?

I don't know what you are looking for, but they seem to be pretty highly qualified based on their credentials. Is it that you dislike lgbtq characters in Valiant stories, don't care for lgbtq writers contributing to Valiant, or both? It's not the qualifications of the writers, because it is obvious that many important people within the comics industry, not just "their friends" at Valiant, believe they are doing a fantastic job.
I’m bothered neither by lbgtq characters nor writers. The bottom line is the quality of the books produced for the company we follow. Regardless of contracts with Marvel (not renowned for quality books) Livewire and Forgotten Queen have been very average and time will tell if Dr Mirage is any better.

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Re: Dr. Mirage returns!

Post by TheFerg714 »

Jrosen wrote: So Tini Howard, who just signed an exclusive contract with Marvel, and Magdalene Visaggio, who has been nominated for an Eisner award, are less talented writers?
Having an exclusive contract with Marvel or winning an Eisner are hardly good metrics for quality storytelling.
Is it that you dislike lgbtq characters in Valiant stories, don't care for lgbtq writers contributing to Valiant, or both?
Why do you keeping jumping to this? He specifically said the opposite.

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Re: Dr. Mirage returns!

Post by kjjohanson »

TheFerg714 wrote:
Jrosen wrote: …[W}inning an Eisner are hardly good metrics for quality storytelling.
The Eisners are the most prestigious comic awards, so I'm going to have to disagree with you there. It may not be to your personal taste, but to be Eisner-nominated is an indication of quality.
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Re: Dr. Mirage returns!

Post by AnarchoMambo »

My opinion is that the Eisners are the best we have in terms of recognition of quality. It is a juried nomination process. From Wikipedia:

The nominations in each category are generated by a five- to six-member jury, [which] consists of at least one comics retailer, one librarian (since 2005), and one academic researcher, among other comics experts {point A}

[this shortlist is] then voted on by comic book professionals and presented at the annual San Diego Comic-Con {point B}

If you disagree with anything that goes on at either point A or point B, you will probably harbor distrust for the award. Point A might have the problem of “who selects the jurists,” or “what if the jurists did not receive my favorite work?” Point B has problems, because is a popular vote by “comic professionals” and so it could be seen as a larger club whose entry is forbidden to most, and only those whose votes are voluntarily submitted will be heard.

Added to this, there is the obvious Point C which is applying an objective grade to a subjective assessment, and then tabulating that objective grade.

Personally, I think the strength of this award really lies in the shortlist. The diversity of the jury has been historically excellent in recognizing the top works and professionals in each category (usually not consistent with, and often counter to, the judged professionals’s popularity.)

The winner gets all of the lasting recognition, sure. But I think that making the shortlist is the mark of true excellence, granted that the creator or publisher took the time and effort to submit the work to the jurists (favors connected publishers,) or that the jurists would have known about and reviewed the work on their own (favors larger, better-distributed publishers.)

So while it is important to attempt to understand the obvious inherent problems, but I truly believe the Eisners are the best that we have in terms of an annual assessment of quality, particularly in the generation of the annual shortlist.

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Re: Dr. Mirage returns!

Post by Ryan »

AnarchoMambo wrote:My opinion is that the Eisners are the best we have in terms of recognition of quality. It is a juried nomination process. From Wikipedia:

The nominations in each category are generated by a five- to six-member jury, [which] consists of at least one comics retailer, one librarian (since 2005), and one academic researcher, among other comics experts {point A}

[this shortlist is] then voted on by comic book professionals and presented at the annual San Diego Comic-Con {point B}

If you disagree with anything that goes on at either point A or point B, you will probably harbor distrust for the award. Point A might have the problem of “who selects the jurists,” or “what if the jurists did not receive my favorite work?” Point B has problems, because is a popular vote by “comic professionals” and so it could be seen as a larger club whose entry is forbidden to most, and only those whose votes are voluntarily submitted will be heard.

Added to this, there is the obvious Point C which is applying an objective grade to a subjective assessment, and then tabulating that objective grade.

Personally, I think the strength of this award really lies in the shortlist. The diversity of the jury has been historically excellent in recognizing the top works and professionals in each category (usually not consistent with, and often counter to, the judged professionals’s popularity.)

The winner gets all of the lasting recognition, sure. But I think that making the shortlist is the mark of true excellence, granted that the creator or publisher took the time and effort to submit the work to the jurists (favors connected publishers,) or that the jurists would have known about and reviewed the work on their own (favors larger, better-distributed publishers.)

So while it is important to attempt to understand the obvious inherent problems, but I truly believe the Eisners are the best that we have in terms of an annual assessment of quality, particularly in the generation of the annual shortlist.
Just like in movies I personally don't think just because something is nominated for an oscar it's a great movie. Critics and 'sophisticates' have a specific set of parameters for what they consider quality that only sometimes overlaps with popular tastes. It depends a lot on what you're looking for in entertainment I guess.

Quality is subjective of coarse, but I would personally put more stock in reader buzz and sales than critical praise. For example I barely pay attention to current comics, but I heard about the buzz surrounding Donny Cates Thanos series, where the sales actually went up each issue, they had to do multiple printings and brought people into comic shops all based on people wanting to READ the book due to reader buzz. I think creating reader buzz and trying to gain more readers as the series goes due to good word of mouth is a better goal than critical accolades.

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Post by AnarchoMambo »

Hmm, reader buzz and sales.

I hear about reader buzz every time I am in the comic shop and discuss what’s “hot” and what people are reading. That should be reflected on the Eisner shortlist, right? As the Wikipedia article points out, a comics retailer is always among the annual shortlist judges.

One of my favored LCSs has won a “Spirit of Comics” Eisner award that goes out to a special retailer, and the owner/manager at this particular LCS have acted as the retailer judge on a previous Eisner Award committee. Can you think of a better way to incorporate reader buzz into an award process than this?

Sales? Wow, I really don’t have the confidence that you have in sales as an indicator of quality. Sales totally favors large and well-distributed publishers.

As you stated, you barely pay attention to current comics, so perhaps you could check out the new thread I just created which provides a link to the 2019 Eisner shortlist. Seek out some of the works and return there to tell us about what you think.

Librarians (another of the Eisner judges is a librarian) pay attention to comics awards, so they try to stock stuff that wins awards as a way to support their patrons with quality books. Your local library is a great place to start to seek out some of the previous award winners.

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Re: Dr. Mirage returns!

Post by Ryan »

AnarchoMambo wrote:Hmm, reader buzz and sales.

I hear about reader buzz every time I am in the comic shop and discuss what’s “hot” and what people are reading. That should be reflected on the Eisner shortlist, right? As the Wikipedia article points out, a comics retailer is always among the annual shortlist judges.

One of my favored LCSs has won a “Spirit of Comics” Eisner award that goes out to a special retailer, and the owner/manager at this particular LCS have acted as the retailer judge on a previous Eisner Award committee. Can you think of a better way to incorporate reader buzz into an award process than this?

Sales? Wow, I really don’t have the confidence that you have in sales as an indicator of quality. Sales totally favors large and well-distributed publishers.

As you stated, you barely pay attention to current comics, so perhaps you could check out the new thread I just created which provides a link to the 2019 Eisner shortlist. Seek out some of the works and return there to tell us about what you think.

Librarians (another of the Eisner judges is a librarian) pay attention to comics awards, so they try to stock stuff that wins awards as a way to support their patrons with quality books. Your local library is a great place to start to seek out some of the previous award winners.
I personally don't care what a panel of sophisticated 'experts' think I should read. As previously stated, I think critics have their own criteria for what is 'good' that only occasionally overlaps with what I consider quality entertainment. But I'm old enough and read enough things to know where my personal tastes lie. I imagine a new reader should try a wide variety of things if they're seeking new things.

My thoughts on the topic at hand are that when assessing a writer I haven't read before I'm going to put more stock in that writer having created buzz with readers before - any classic runs (or cult hits) or books where the sales went up when they were writing? I put less stock in critical praise or industry award nominations. Although both are worthy of consideration.

For example a writer I've liked in the past Ed Brubaker has won multiple industry awards and had multiple 'hit' series that grew in sales due to the buzz created around regular readers really enjoying the books.

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Post by AnarchoMambo »

Ryan wrote:I personally don't care what a panel of sophisticated 'experts' think I should read. As previously stated, I think critics have their own criteria for what is 'good'.
These sophisticated “experts” of whom you speak and label as professional critics. One of them was my comics retailer. He is not sophisticated, nor is he a professional critic. He is like me. He helps me out with reader buzz every time I walk into his shop.

Another of these sophisticated experts is a local librarian who could serve in my local branch or perhaps in yours.

I would love to know more about the grounds for your basis of labeling the Eisner judges as differing significantly from you or me.

From the Eisner Award website:

The 2019 Eisner Awards judging panel consists of comics journalist Chris Arrant (Newsarama), academic/author Jared Gardner (Ohio State University), librarian Traci Glass (Multnomah County Library system in Portland, Oregon), retailer Jenn Haines (The Dragon, Guelph and Milton, Ontario, Canada), reviewer Steven Howearth (Pop Culture Maven), and comics creator Jimmie Robinson (CyberZone, Amanda & Gunn, Bomb Girl).

There’s a librarian from Portland in there. There’s a shop-owner from Ontario. There’s an academic from Ohio State, and others, none of whom I know anything about. But is there any reason for me to believe that they are any different from me? Please let me know if I should inherently distrust or disregard their collective tastes, and why.

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Re: Dr. Mirage returns!

Post by Ryan »

AnarchoMambo wrote: There’s a librarian from Portland in there. There’s a shop-owner from Ontario. There’s an academic from Ohio State, and others, none of whom I know anything about. But is there any reason for me to believe that they are any different from me? Please let me know if I should inherently distrust or disregard their collective tastes, and why.
I didn't know the background of the judges, that's kinda interesting but you're straw-manning me here. I never said anyone should "inherently distrust or disregard their collective tastes", I said
Ryan wrote:Quality is subjective of coarse, but I would personally put more stock in reader buzz and sales than critical praise.
It's just a preference on my part, I'm not interested in a binary debate about the importance of an Eisner. I already stated I give industry awards some weight in my judgments, I just look at other factors more.

I think the bigger issue is that there are some fans on here who are bought in to the new direction and are ready to accept whatever they put out (which is fine), and there are others like myself who have not liked the new books and look at new announcements more skeptically. We're waiting to see something different, and this is more of the same.

For the people that have loved Faith, Rising Spirit, Livewire, Forgotten Queen, Punk Mambo etc. they should be excited because Dr. Mirage looks in line with those books. For the others there is just this facepalm . If you want to debate the merits of the new direction and why it has or hasn't been great for Valiant, I'm game for that. Other topics I'm not interested in debating.

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Post by AnarchoMambo »

Fair enough. Thanks for the vigorous debate-ahem...discussion.

To summarize my side of the discussion, I will restate that I feel that sales numbers are a *SQUEE* -poor indicator of quality. Countless examples.

And I will restate that the Eisners are a pretty decent juried award, IMO, for the numerous reasons I’ve listed above. But perhaps the strongest evidence that compels me to support this claim is this: one of the 5-6 judges every year is a retailer, and always from an exemplary shop such as my LCS. This, in my opinion, should help the jury to be sensitive to what you refer to as “reader buzz.”

So it stands that my suggestion for most folks is to read the Eisner shortlist to get a rough assessment of the state of quality in the industry. And of course there is no harm in doing otherwise. Thanks!
Last edited by AnarchoMambo on Mon May 13, 2019 7:32:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dr. Mirage returns!

Post by Chiclo »

Dallow Spicer1 wrote:
Jrosen wrote:
Dallow Spicer1 wrote: I’m not sure you’re reading what I’m writing? The main issue I’m calling out is that some editors are selecting less talented writers because of their political views and as a consequence they are delivering mediocre books.

I’m questioning the motives of the editors and what they are trying to achieve. I believe they could get better writers who would deliver more enjoyable books for the fans to read, however, they select their friends instead who share common political views.

I’m not sure I can explain that any clearer :?
So Tini Howard, who just signed an exclusive contract with Marvel, and Magdalene Visaggio, who has been nominated for an Eisner award, are less talented writers?

I don't know what you are looking for, but they seem to be pretty highly qualified based on their credentials. Is it that you dislike lgbtq characters in Valiant stories, don't care for lgbtq writers contributing to Valiant, or both? It's not the qualifications of the writers, because it is obvious that many important people within the comics industry, not just "their friends" at Valiant, believe they are doing a fantastic job.
I’m bothered neither by lbgtq characters nor writers. The bottom line is the quality of the books produced for the company we follow. Regardless of contracts with Marvel (not renowned for quality books) Livewire and Forgotten Queen have been very average and time will tell if Dr Mirage is any better.
I think the Forgotten Queen began before the current editors started so it probably predates this conversation.

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Re: Dr. Mirage returns!

Post by kjjohanson »

McDonalds has sold billions of hamburgers, but they still make a *SQUEE* hamburger. Popularity is not an indication of quality. Being recognized by the industry as being a creator of a quality product doesn't necessarily mean that your creation is going to be appreciated by the average consumer, of course. Books that sell the most copies tend not to be the highest-regarded books in term of quality (with exceptions, of course); they just appeal to the most consumers.
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Re: Dr. Mirage returns!

Post by TheFerg714 »

kjjohanson wrote:
TheFerg714 wrote:
Jrosen wrote: …[W}inning an Eisner are hardly good metrics for quality storytelling.
The Eisners are the most prestigious comic awards, so I'm going to have to disagree with you there. It may not be to your personal taste, but to be Eisner-nominated is an indication of quality.
I would have to disagree. I can only really come from a Valiant (and casual DC/Marvel) fan's perspective, but the Eisner's have been a *SQUEE* show for the last few years.
2019- Nothing. I know this was a slow year for Valiant, but it was also the year of Ninja-K and Shadowman.
2018- Matt Kindt finally gets nominated for best writer here, which is cool. Secret Weapons should have gotten some love.
2017- Jeff Lemire was nominated for best writer, but other than that, Faith is the only Valiant book to be nominated for anything (best new series). Faith is the one Valiant book that gets any commendation from this prestigious academy. *SQUEE* Faith was chosen over X-O Manowar, Bloodshot Reborn, Bloodshot USA, Ninjak, Imperium, Divinity II, Wrath of the Eternal Warrior, Rai, and 4001 A.D. They make it hard to take them seriously when they do things like that. On top of that, in a year where DC absolutely killed it with dozens of great books that spawned from Rebirth, they get almost no mention. It's just silly that Rebirth #1 wasn't nominated.
2016- Nothing for Valiant. This was the year of Valiant Next. Some of Valiant's best books, and most successful event, were released this year, but I guess they weren't enough for the Eisner's.
2015- Nothing for Valiant again.
2014- Technically Jordie Bellaire was nominated for colorist, which is cool.
2013- Nothing. Just keep in mind, this was the year in which X-O, Harbinger, Bloodshot, and A&A came out.

So no, sorry, I don't take the Eisner's seriously. Valiant has had some incredibly talented writers and artists work for them, but Matt Kindt and Jeff Lemire were the only people to get nominated, and they had to have like five other series going on at the same time. Apparently to the Eisner's, Faith is the pinnacle of storytelling over at Valiant. Faith.


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