The future of comic book collecting

Discuss the VALIANT comics, characters, and collecting.
PLEASE DO NOT REVEAL SPOILER INFORMATION IN YOUR TOPIC TITLE.

Moderators: Daniel Jackson, greg

Post Reply
User avatar
nycjadie
Especially "dude." And "balls." Those terms work in the tech industry.
Especially "dude." And "balls." Those terms work in the tech industry.
Posts: 7288
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:38:36 am
Valiant fan since: Solar #1
Favorite character: Rai
Favorite title: Bloodshot
Favorite writer: Kindt
Favorite artist: Too many to choose.
Location: Virginia
The future of comic book collecting

Post by nycjadie »

This is my rant that started from this thread, but I thought warrants a separate thread (future of the industry as opposed to future of collecting).
http://www.valiantfans.com/forum/viewto ... =4&t=52066" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For hobbies, I think comics might be slightly different than many of the hobbies today that have seen interest or value plummet (e.g. stamps, toy soldiers, beanie babies, etc.).

The case that collectibles are not investments, from an economist:
https://www.realclearmarkets.com/articl ... 02810.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think that's true to a degree, but there are plenty of businesses that operate by selling items that have no intrinsic value. Art galleries for one. Antique dealers as another. Frankly, you could make the same argument about the luxury good industry, and their stocks are doing quite well. Based on that, I think you can say that sellers of items that have no intrinsic value are investors, many of them successful.

Now that doesn't mean that our hobbies will come and go. People still collect baseball cards, stamps, coins, beanie babies (believe it or not), and a host of other items that have not held value. I would not want to be a stamp dealer, or a coin dealer, or a beanie baby dealer. I would, however, be fine being a dealer of collectibles. People will always collect things. It's just a matter of finding the collectible that people want to collect.

Nostalgia runs in cycles of 20-30 years. Those transformers, GI Joe, TMNT figures of the 80s have been popular for well over a decade, spurring value. Will they always? Probably not. They will plummet in value unless they can find new audiences for that nostalgia. Exceptions to the rule exist. Star Wars is a great example that has been spurring new audiences with episodes 1-3, and now 7-9.

I'd argue that comics, as a whole, is very different. Comics are a medium. People consume comics in a variety of different ways now - electronic, printed, collected, virtual, etc. They are also created on a scale never seen. I was a huge consumer of micro and small print comics for a time. Super fun. Very few of them have taken off, but there are some great ones out there.

Nostalgia for comics is different than for other hobbies because it is a medium. Nostalgia for silver age Marvel is very strong. It probably will be strong for some time because of the interest in the characters. It's the Star Wars of superheroes.

Nostalgia for golden age comics is not very strong. There are exceptions of course - Action Comics and Detective Comics are still in demand. However, the vast majority of golden age comics can be attained for prices lower than they have been since the 80s, or even earlier. This is because people do not have nostalgia for these books. Woody Woodpecker had a recent movie. Nobody is driving up the price of gold or silver age Woody Woodpecker books, or speculating on other Walter Lanz books (the creator) because of that. Those characters hit their peak in the 1980s, when the kids that grew up with that stuff went back to collect them all.

eBay has definitely affected the market on comics. It's allowed us all to be become dealers to a degree, and offer items that once required a significant amount of work to find. In the 80s, I'd drive to comic stores far and wide and hunt garage sales and newspaper classifieds (I still do, just in different ways). Even then, I would be hard-pressed to find the comics I wanted. I coveted the cheap beat up silver and gold books I had, because they were truly rare. Now I can get a wide variety of books, usually for much, much cheaper than they were in the 80s, and whenever I want. So availability is different today.

Rarity is not different today. There are only so many items. Rarity doesn't change. What changes is availability and demand. Availability is usually affected by global change of markets (eBay for example, or cheap shipping). Demand changes with desire for a particular item. For collectibles, people can speculate on what that demand might be. Many of us do it with comics. Demand for bronze age books has changed significantly in the last 5 years. Even the last 3 has seen C list books become desirable. Part of that is scarcity. People chucked those because they were worthless for so long. Part of that is demand. Those characters are being resurrected in new series and movies and games.

That brings me back to nostalgia and comics. I think that comics, as a medium, will be around for as long as people create. I think that the way comics are consumed will change over time. I think that nostalgia will drive the characters and stories that we consume, and that nostalgia for stories will cycle over time. We will likely see Tarzan and John Carter be resurrected in new franchises every 20 years. We will see Star Wars wane and come back to life. Perhaps nostalgia for the American Western will even come back. Collectibles from those eras and characters will also cycle in desirability, and the value of those will be impacted by scarcity, availability and demand. People will be able to profit from those (and yes, even invest and make a living). One can speculate on which books/characters/eras will increase in value. One can invest in the sale of collectibles or other items that do not have intrinsic value.

As for that enormous Valiant collection I have, with probably 1500+ slabs, and countless raw books, artwork, covers, collectibles, etc.? I don't think it's going to be worth much in 10 years, or even 20. Maybe it will. Either way, I don't care. It brought me joy. I do not see it as an investment, or even speculation. It's my collection. It will be a burden on my children, and the price they will have to pay to get their inheritance ;)

User avatar
magnusr
I would hang a left...
I would hang a left...
Posts: 8886
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 9:41:48 am
Location: Stockholm
Re: The future of comic book collecting

Post by magnusr »

Must say you provide much more substance than that article. Basically he's managed to figure one part of it all and thinks he's found something new. Of course it's about supply and demand, whether the items in question generate income or not. Even for stocks the fundamentals have a limited influence on the price while estimates of other dealers' demand play a bigger role. And as you say collectibles often do have a kind of emotional value to the collector. Also he missed the "safe haven" aspect. Currencies no longer have any firm value, so there is a value in placing money in anything that exists in limited numbers. Art for instance is a safe haven when stocks go down. Having said all that, of course he is right that blind speculation doesn't lead to any lasting value. As for comics, in the long run it's probably, as you say, a personal pleasure rather than a lasting value, except for a few very publicly known properties.

/Magnus

User avatar
Elveen
I sell comics, I collect Valiant.
I sell comics, I collect Valiant.
Posts: 25252
Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 2:44:48 am
Location: Educating the future of America, or something like that
Re: The future of comic book collecting

Post by Elveen »

At the root of comic books, is the story aspect.

Peeps have always and will always love stories.

Every culture has their own stories and catalogs them.
Comic books are currently, THE pop culture story.

And the last 30ish years (starting with the Batman flick as a “starting point” and Iron Man in 2008 as the rocket ship point) comic book movies have brought the stories to the main stream public consciousness.


Comic book are SO different as collectibles as many of the other items they can be grouped into (baseball cards and beanie babies and such) cause they are a dual threat. You have the item itself, they physical books but you also have the legend and myth created in the story.

Just my opinion.

User avatar
depluto
[custom level vored]
[custom level vored]
Posts: 19504
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 1:38:47 pm
Valiant fan since: Yes
Favorite character: Yes
Favorite title: Yes
Favorite writer: Yes
Location: Pluto Beach FL
Re: The future of comic book collecting

Post by depluto »

These are all fantastic points. I personally would not mind to see the comics collectible industry crater. There are a lot of books I want to buy and I would rather buy them cheap.

User avatar
DirtbagSailor
I only know how to fish, f^%k, fight, and throw rocks
I only know how to fish, f^%k, fight, and throw rocks
Posts: 5047
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:27:03 am
Valiant fan since: 1993
Favorite character: Harada
Favorite title: Imperium
Location: Maryland
Re: The future of comic book collecting

Post by DirtbagSailor »

My grandfather collected postage stamps and post cards beginning in the 1940s until his passing earlier this year.

He ran a shop in Sacramento for decades, and would attend conventions where ever and whenever they were held. Some were quite expensive; others more of a novelty. As a boy in the 1980s, I would visit his shop and look through his boxes and portfolios. They were cool (somewhat); however, had no real nostalgic value or connection to me.

Over the years, as tends to happen, his customers grew old, and died. Fewer and fewer customers would come to the shop, and new customers were rare. Eventually, in his early 90s, he closed his shop for good and retired from collecting, buying, and selling.

He had a great interest and passion for postage stamps and post cards. One that few today understand or relate to. Yet, we have exactly the same relationship with comics.

I honestly do not believe that we will see 5 million copies of a comic book printed and sold to the masses again. That time has passed. Today, I deal with buyers and sellers usually in their 40s and above. Kids do what kids do, which is play Spider-Man video games and watch Batman movies. A few may buy physical printed comics, but I suspect the numbers are quite low.

On the bright side, we are still in a golden age of comic book storytelling with games , tv, and movies. Also, we are seeing phenomenal cosplays on a level never before imagined.

The only thing that will remain constant is the each generation will find something to collect. Something that they cherish and are passionate about that the next generation will struggle to understand.

User avatar
lorddunlow
I think you might be a closeted Canadian.
I think you might be a closeted Canadian.
Posts: 13552
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:51:31 pm
Re: The future of comic book collecting

Post by lorddunlow »

depluto wrote:These are all fantastic points. I personally would not mind to see the comics collectible industry crater. There are a lot of books I want to buy and I would rather buy them cheap.
Ditto

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk
*SQUEE* your science, I have a machine gun.

User avatar
kjjohanson
Now I bet you're all going to want me to drag it out and show you.
Now I bet you're all going to want me to drag it out and show you.
Posts: 4999
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 6:52:13 pm
Valiant fan since: Magnus #1
Favorite character: Anon-Lurker
Favorite title: Archer & Armstrong
Favorite writer: Fred Van Lente
Location: Astoria, NY
Contact:
Re: The future of comic book collecting

Post by kjjohanson »

I'm the opposite. While I hope comics as a medium persists, I have less and less connection to owning physical copies. I've pretty much given up collecting anything except Valiant and a few other select things. I've been looking for opportunities to sell off all of the other books I've accumulated over the decades. (Movie/TV announcements help; I'm considering selling my Sandmans.) Living in NYC, space is at a premium, so there's a cost connected to continuing to own so many comics.
If you're not a *SQUEE*, you're okay with me.

Oxmyx
H.A.R.D.E.R. Corps, with Extra Resistance
H.A.R.D.E.R. Corps, with Extra Resistance
Posts: 1029
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:53:37 pm
Valiant fan since: 2013
Favorite character: Blister
Favorite title: Rai and the Future Force
Favorite writer: Jim Shooter
Favorite artist: Barry Wind-Smith
Location: Greensboro, NC, USA
Re: The future of comic book collecting

Post by Oxmyx »

I've made the observation (am I correct?) from reading modern Valiant TPBs that modern Valiant is putting out way WAY more variant covers than classic Valiant did. In fact, it sounds like classic Valiant did that very rarely and often (usually?) not intentionally.

How much of this do I understand correctly?

Where I am going with this is, as a collector searching through dollar bins, is that in the future it'll be pretty dang complicated.
I've been looking everywhere for the ultra-rare Turok vs Blister issue. Anybody able to help me out?

User avatar
kjjohanson
Now I bet you're all going to want me to drag it out and show you.
Now I bet you're all going to want me to drag it out and show you.
Posts: 4999
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 6:52:13 pm
Valiant fan since: Magnus #1
Favorite character: Anon-Lurker
Favorite title: Archer & Armstrong
Favorite writer: Fred Van Lente
Location: Astoria, NY
Contact:
Re: The future of comic book collecting

Post by kjjohanson »

Oxmyx wrote:I've made the observation (am I correct?) from reading modern Valiant TPBs that modern Valiant is putting out way WAY more variant covers than classic Valiant did. In fact, it sounds like classic Valiant did that very rarely and often (usually?) not intentionally.

How much of this do I understand correctly?

Where I am going with this is, as a collector searching through dollar bins, is that in the future it'll be pretty dang complicated.
Variants were a rare thing in general in the '90s. Usually they were only done as special productions (like the gold editions for giveaways), or to have a normal cover-priced edition for an enhanced cover. Incentive variants weren't a regular thing until this decade, and with the new comics market shrinking, multiple covers have become the norm for small companies that need the extra sales to survive.
If you're not a *SQUEE*, you're okay with me.

User avatar
caxiotis
Wang, Wang, Wang, I want all of your books.
Wang, Wang, Wang, I want all of your books.
Posts: 3314
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:28:45 pm
Valiant fan since: 1991
Location: Des Moines, IA
The future of comic book collecting

Post by caxiotis »

In my opinion comics are a hobby and not an investment. I have been buying and selling comics for over 10 years and am barely breaking even. I do it because I love comics and it is fun to read them. At one point I thought of them as an investment, but not anymore. Honestly if it weren’t for DCBS (due to their large discount) and finding rare books haphazardly in the wild, I probably would be at a loss. This doesn’t include the hours of my time putting things on eBay and shipping books. That said I buy comics to read them and try to subsidize my spending by selling them.

However I do think some comics are an investment, mostly old books that regardless of the test of time will have a large demand to be owned by the populous. This is the Action #1 kind of books.

I think the key differentiator whether something is an investment or a hobby is after I buy something can I sell it immediately afterwards for the same value? With comics...probably not. If I buy a book for $4 at my LCS, can I sell the book after I read it for $4? The answer is no. I might (big maybe) be able to sell it for $3 plus $4 shipping on eBay, but after all expenses (cost to be book, shipping cost, eBay/PayPal overhead fees, shipping materials, and my time) I have lost money. Guaranteed. I can hold onto this book for 30 years hoping it will appreciate in value, but the odds are against me. I could get lucky and have bought something that pops later (like ASM #300), but that is uncommon and the odds are all on losing money.

Also, the market for selling comics is very small. Meaning the mass populous doesn’t buy and sell comics. Mainly month to month comic collectors. This keeps the ability to sell things for their cover price limited. If it is an Action #1 then the market has increased outside of the month-to-month collectors to the larger market.

Thinking of the stock market, if I buy equities will I be able to get my money back? The odds are yes. At least most of it will be returned to me or I will make a profit. Can’t say the same for comics.

Lastly, based on what I wrote above would I want to put my 401k retirement into comics or the stock market. Which will more likely have value equal to or more than I put into it....I think it is obvious.
Pull List: I only buy TPB's, HC's and Hellboy comics

User avatar
nycjadie
Especially "dude." And "balls." Those terms work in the tech industry.
Especially "dude." And "balls." Those terms work in the tech industry.
Posts: 7288
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:38:36 am
Valiant fan since: Solar #1
Favorite character: Rai
Favorite title: Bloodshot
Favorite writer: Kindt
Favorite artist: Too many to choose.
Location: Virginia
Re: The future of comic book collecting

Post by nycjadie »

Totally agree about buying new books off the shelf. It's nuts. It's like money out the window. Not just $.30-.75. It's $3-4. Although, I've seen a few collections be incredibly successful in return on investment, based solely on buying books and storing them properly. It just takes decades of time.

If your goal is to get the most from your investment financially, comics are just not the way to go 99% of the time. Traditional investments - stocks, bonds, real estate, manufacturing, etc. is the way to go. But there is more than just financial return to an investment. I can make a lot more with the hourly fee in my day job than I can selling comics, but I like to do both. It makes me happy.

nonplayer
Rockin' out in Torquehalla
Rockin' out in Torquehalla
Posts: 2241
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 9:16:04 pm
Valiant fan since: back in the day xo#9
Favorite character: Momo, xo turok
Favorite title: Wrath of the eternal warrior
Favorite writer: Joshua dysart
Favorite artist: Robert Gill
Location: out for lunch
Re: The future of comic book collecting

Post by nonplayer »

Plant based information storage devices are very archaic. It's all about nastalgia now. like holding on to a block buster chain location. The nostalgia will fade and all youll be left with is a large recycle bun to carry to the curb.
Special issues will hold their value like other antiques.
I Miss the good old days.

Oxmyx
H.A.R.D.E.R. Corps, with Extra Resistance
H.A.R.D.E.R. Corps, with Extra Resistance
Posts: 1029
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:53:37 pm
Valiant fan since: 2013
Favorite character: Blister
Favorite title: Rai and the Future Force
Favorite writer: Jim Shooter
Favorite artist: Barry Wind-Smith
Location: Greensboro, NC, USA
Re: The future of comic book collecting

Post by Oxmyx »

nonplayer wrote:Plant based information storage devices are very archaic. It's all about nastalgia now. like holding on to a block buster chain location. The nostalgia will fade and all youll be left with is a large recycle bun to carry to the curb.
Special issues will hold their value like other antiques.
You really ARE a nonplayer, aren't you? ;-)
I've been looking everywhere for the ultra-rare Turok vs Blister issue. Anybody able to help me out?

User avatar
kinggirlfriend
5318008
5318008
Posts: 568
Joined: Thu May 11, 2017 5:20:12 pm
Valiant fan since: 2016
Favorite character: Gilad
Favorite title: Wrath
Favorite writer: Venditti
Favorite artist: CAFU
Location: Southwest Desert
Re: The future of comic book collecting

Post by kinggirlfriend »

DirtbagSailor wrote:I honestly do not believe that we will see 5 million copies of a comic book printed and sold to the masses again. That time has passed.
I realize this is practically an apples to oranges comparison but for curiosity sake I looked up what the numbers were for the bestsellers in Japan, very eye-opening:
Top Ten best selling manga in Japan from November 2017 to November 2018 are listed as such (in number of copies sold):

One Piece - 8,113,317
My Hero Academia - 6,718,185
Attack on Titan - 5,235,963
Slam Dunk - 5,214,085
Haikyu!! - 5,030,624
Kingdom - 4,970,171
The Seven Deadly Sins - 4,867,680
The Promised Neverland - 4,246,955
That Time I Got Reincarnated as a Slime - 3,460,066
Tokyo Ghoul:re - 3,267,843

User avatar
IMJ
I have a Quasar collection. And I love it. So there.
I have a Quasar collection. And I love it. So there.
Posts: 4752
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 12:05:45 am
Valiant fan since: VH1 X-O Manowar #1
Favorite character: VH1 Sting | VH2 Rai
Favorite title: VH2 Rai
Favorite writer: Kurt Busiek
Favorite artist: Sean Chen
Location: Chicago, IL
Re: The future of comic book collecting

Post by IMJ »

kinggirlfriend wrote:
DirtbagSailor wrote:I honestly do not believe that we will see 5 million copies of a comic book printed and sold to the masses again. That time has passed.
I realize this is practically an apples to oranges comparison but for curiosity sake I looked up what the numbers were for the bestsellers in Japan, very eye-opening:
Top Ten best selling manga in Japan from November 2017 to November 2018 are listed as such (in number of copies sold):

One Piece - 8,113,317
My Hero Academia - 6,718,185
Attack on Titan - 5,235,963
Slam Dunk - 5,214,085
Haikyu!! - 5,030,624
Kingdom - 4,970,171
The Seven Deadly Sins - 4,867,680
The Promised Neverland - 4,246,955
That Time I Got Reincarnated as a Slime - 3,460,066
Tokyo Ghoul:re - 3,267,843
:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
I guess pop culture really is an inextricable part of Japanese culture....

User avatar
Shadowman99
Clinkin' bottles with Aram
Clinkin' bottles with Aram
Posts: 2847
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:08:01 am
Valiant fan since: 2012
Favorite title: XO Manowar
Favorite artist: Clayton Crain
Location: England
Re: The future of comic book collecting

Post by Shadowman99 »

IMJ wrote:
kinggirlfriend wrote:
DirtbagSailor wrote:I honestly do not believe that we will see 5 million copies of a comic book printed and sold to the masses again. That time has passed.
I realize this is practically an apples to oranges comparison but for curiosity sake I looked up what the numbers were for the bestsellers in Japan, very eye-opening:
Top Ten best selling manga in Japan from November 2017 to November 2018 are listed as such (in number of copies sold):

One Piece - 8,113,317
My Hero Academia - 6,718,185
Attack on Titan - 5,235,963
Slam Dunk - 5,214,085
Haikyu!! - 5,030,624
Kingdom - 4,970,171
The Seven Deadly Sins - 4,867,680
The Promised Neverland - 4,246,955
That Time I Got Reincarnated as a Slime - 3,460,066
Tokyo Ghoul:re - 3,267,843
:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
I guess pop culture really is an inextricable part of Japanese culture....
The whole attitude toward comics in Japan is completely unlike that in ANY other culture and historically always has been. Comparison of Japanese comic culture, including sales figures, to any other market is truly meaningless.
Kurt Busiek wrote:Bull$#!t

User avatar
kinggirlfriend
5318008
5318008
Posts: 568
Joined: Thu May 11, 2017 5:20:12 pm
Valiant fan since: 2016
Favorite character: Gilad
Favorite title: Wrath
Favorite writer: Venditti
Favorite artist: CAFU
Location: Southwest Desert
Re: The future of comic book collecting

Post by kinggirlfriend »

And I'm just going to make a wild assumption that they didn't need to push variant covers to reach those numbers.

User avatar
mramsterdam
Is it Dee-no or Die-no? Dunno.
Is it Dee-no or Die-no? Dunno.
Posts: 457
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:35:53 pm
Location: Home of the Devil/Devils
Re: The future of comic book collecting

Post by mramsterdam »

When they read a book they really read a book.It is their number 1 hobby and manga/anime characters don't really need a race or color to be liked unlike other countries.
I-Only judge porn by the cover.

User avatar
IMJ
I have a Quasar collection. And I love it. So there.
I have a Quasar collection. And I love it. So there.
Posts: 4752
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 12:05:45 am
Valiant fan since: VH1 X-O Manowar #1
Favorite character: VH1 Sting | VH2 Rai
Favorite title: VH2 Rai
Favorite writer: Kurt Busiek
Favorite artist: Sean Chen
Location: Chicago, IL
Re: The future of comic book collecting

Post by IMJ »

mramsterdam wrote:When they read a book they really read a book.It is their number 1 hobby and manga/anime characters don't really need a race or color to be liked unlike other countries.
It's my understanding that they loved Ghost in the Shell and thought that Scarlett did a great job. The only people voicing negative opinions about her "whiteness" was here in 'merica.... facepalm


Post Reply