Let’s talk solutions to fix Valiant!

Discuss the VALIANT comics, characters, and collecting.
PLEASE DO NOT REVEAL SPOILER INFORMATION IN YOUR TOPIC TITLE.

Moderators: Daniel Jackson, greg

How can Valiant be fixed in 2020?

Poll ended at Sat Dec 14, 2019 1:37:41 pm

Bring in a new person to take charge of creative vision.
16
20%
Current creative vision is what I want, in fact, double down on it!
0
No votes
Current problems were the previous regimes fault not this crew so give them a chance.
2
2%
Choose better writers more consistently, too many chances are being taken on unproven writers.
14
17%
Keep the current 2019 writers they’re awesome and let them loose on the A list characters.
0
No votes
Choose better artists more consistently, too many books have has sub par art.
15
19%
Current level of art is fine.
2
2%
We know the A list characters are coming back in 2020 and that should fix things anyway.
3
4%
Let the writers continue to choose which characters they write.
0
No votes
Bring back ratio variants that will move more books.
1
1%
Focus more on being a connected universe again.
20
25%
Create new lead characters and launch their own books in 2020.
2
2%
Re-purpose existing properties (like Dr Tomorrow) and use them more in 2020.
3
4%
Something else not listed.
3
4%
 
Total votes: 81

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Dallow Spicer1
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Let’s talk solutions to fix Valiant!

Post by Dallow Spicer1 »

Ok so we do a lot of back and forths on the state of current Valiant, but whose got solutions? Complete the poll and add your comments!

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Re: Let’s talk solutions to fix Valiant!

Post by reddog »

Some things from new visitor after being away from Valiant for a long time:
* The art seems to genetally be cgi art, smooth amd rounded amd mostly sparse. There might be detail to the one character on the page but no detail to the environment they live in. Too many panels are colored for backgrounds as opposed to having backgrounds add to the story or feeli g of the story.
* The writing has no history behind it. Almost everything seems to be made up and jot very connected to the original universe. The writing is also very sparse, like the art, with nothing behind it and nothing to pull it forward in time. Good writing is harder than good art and neither work.
* Variants or ones of whatevers- when a publisher shortsightedly moves as far into these as Valiant has, they replace greed with creative and market to the gullible as opposed to the loyal. I'm shocked at the amou t of covers Valiant puts out and the different materials they use to bleed money from the comic buying vein as opposed to supplying oxygen to carry their ideas through the comic buying system.

thers more but i better shut up

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Re: Let’s talk solutions to fix Valiant!

Post by reddog »

they replace creativity with greed

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Re: Let’s talk solutions to fix Valiant!

Post by Oxmyx »

reddog wrote:Some things from new visitor after being away from Valiant for a long time:
* The art seems to genetally be cgi art, smooth amd rounded amd mostly sparse. There might be detail to the one character on the page but no detail to the environment they live in. Too many panels are colored for backgrounds as opposed to having backgrounds add to the story or feeli g of the story.
* The writing has no history behind it. Almost everything seems to be made up and jot very connected to the original universe. The writing is also very sparse, like the art, with nothing behind it and nothing to pull it forward in time. Good writing is harder than good art and neither work.
Thers more but i better shut up
I find all this fascinating in the way a falling bridge is fascinating. You see, I'm still reading alternately in 1994 or 2012 or so. The most recent comic I read was the Rags Morales Bloodshot RS, and only because Rags was worth messing with the timeline (I thought). Otherwise I've only seen various panels online in places. Out of morbid curiosit :censored: y, can you give me an example of a title that has the CGI feel to you?
I've been looking everywhere for the ultra-rare Turok vs Blister issue. Anybody able to help me out?

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Re: Let’s talk solutions to fix Valiant!

Post by Ramses818 »

I will present some solutions but to what end? Valiant editorial has stated they want the “writers to tell their stories”. They do not want them weighed down by and worried about continuity. So really even though I can offer thoughts on a solution, it is not in line with what Valiant is doing story wise. They have got some very good artists doing covers and some on interiors. The problem is they are not putting them to their strengths. Also I think they need to have a plan for announcing new books. For example don’t announce XO Manowar for Nov and then push if back by months. Granted it’s better to do that then go through something like Rising Spirit, but these people are not new at this. They should have learned. I understand that they have a stressful job, let’s be honest their job is not the same as what we hope for. We are a hobby and for them it is business and that requires different things.

So how to fix Valiant? Have no expectations and read what you enjoy.

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Re: Let’s talk solutions to fix Valiant!

Post by reddog »

can you give me an example of a title that has the CGI feel to you?

one example is all feb 2020 solicitations. they are all also poor covers, using the favorite valiant tactive of a portrait or full body shot and mostly nothing else. thats an example of a poser company. and it xhows in their readership. valiant is a failed endeavor now because they have nothing but color amd line and two dozen fanboys chasing their iterations....ooooooo, i want the 1:20 then the poor xouls who bought have to sell to keep the lights on.

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Re: Let’s talk solutions to fix Valiant!

Post by Dallow Spicer1 »

Ramses818 wrote:I will present some solutions but to what end? Valiant editorial has stated they want the “writers to tell their stories”. They do not want them weighed down by and worried about continuity. So really even though I can offer thoughts on a solution, it is not in line with what Valiant is doing story wise. They have got some very good artists doing covers and some on interiors. The problem is they are not putting them to their strengths. Also I think they need to have a plan for announcing new books. For example don’t announce XO Manowar for Nov and then push if back by months. Granted it’s better to do that then go through something like Rising Spirit, but these people are not new at this. They should have learned. I understand that they have a stressful job, let’s be honest their job is not the same as what we hope for. We are a hobby and for them it is business and that requires different things.

So how to fix Valiant? Have no expectations and read what you enjoy.
Fair points, but on some (business) level they must look at sales and customer engagement and consider if the 2019 strategy has worked (many of us believe it hasn’t) Gregg Katzman who is in charge of marketing (and a good guy) checks in on this board from time to time and actually seems interested in fan feedback and who knows, suggestions from this site might find their way back to the people in charge. :?

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Re: Let’s talk solutions to fix Valiant!

Post by kjjohanson »

Ramses818 wrote:Also I think they need to have a plan for announcing new books. For example don’t announce XO Manowar for Nov and then push if back by months. Granted it’s better to do that then go through something like Rising Spirit, but these people are not new at this.
I think this is at the core of what's missing from current Valiant; there's no hype machine for their books. Dinesh was constantly promoting the latest thing. Not just new titles, but new story arc, cool covers, etc. Even if the reality doesn't live up to the hype, one way to keep the business going is to keep fans excited.
If you're not a *SQUEE*, you're okay with me.

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Re: Let’s talk solutions to fix Valiant!

Post by Dallow Spicer1 »

kjjohanson wrote:
Ramses818 wrote:Also I think they need to have a plan for announcing new books. For example don’t announce XO Manowar for Nov and then push if back by months. Granted it’s better to do that then go through something like Rising Spirit, but these people are not new at this.
I think this is at the core of what's missing from current Valiant; there's no hype machine for their books. Dinesh was constantly promoting the latest thing. Not just new titles, but new story arc, cool covers, etc. Even if the reality doesn't live up to the hype, one way to keep the business going is to keep fans excited.
This is a rare thing...but I agree with KJ

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Re: Let’s talk solutions to fix Valiant!

Post by Ramses818 »

Dallow Spicer1 wrote:
Ramses818 wrote:I will present some solutions but to what end? Valiant editorial has stated they want the “writers to tell their stories”. They do not want them weighed down by and worried about continuity. So really even though I can offer thoughts on a solution, it is not in line with what Valiant is doing story wise. They have got some very good artists doing covers and some on interiors. The problem is they are not putting them to their strengths. Also I think they need to have a plan for announcing new books. For example don’t announce XO Manowar for Nov and then push if back by months. Granted it’s better to do that then go through something like Rising Spirit, but these people are not new at this. They should have learned. I understand that they have a stressful job, let’s be honest their job is not the same as what we hope for. We are a hobby and for them it is business and that requires different things.

So how to fix Valiant? Have no expectations and read what you enjoy.
Fair points, but on some (business) level they must look at sales and customer engagement and consider if the 2019 strategy has worked (many of us believe it hasn’t) Gregg Katzman who is in charge of marketing (and a good guy) checks in on this board from time to time and actually seems interested in fan feedback and who knows, suggestions from this site might find their way back to the people in charge. :?
I can tell you that I have been lucky enough to have direct interactions with the staff and that’s why I quoted the editorial directives. They very much understand what the fans are saying..and have for the last 2 years. What you see is what you are going to get. Try not to stress yourself out too much.

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Re: Let’s talk solutions to fix Valiant!

Post by Ramses818 »

Dallow Spicer1 wrote:
kjjohanson wrote:
Ramses818 wrote:Also I think they need to have a plan for announcing new books. For example don’t announce XO Manowar for Nov and then push if back by months. Granted it’s better to do that then go through something like Rising Spirit, but these people are not new at this.
I think this is at the core of what's missing from current Valiant; there's no hype machine for their books. Dinesh was constantly promoting the latest thing. Not just new titles, but new story arc, cool covers, etc. Even if the reality doesn't live up to the hype, one way to keep the business going is to keep fans excited.
This is a rare thing...but I agree with KJ
:o :clap: :clap: :high-five:

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Re: Let’s talk solutions to fix Valiant!

Post by mateo107 »

The days of Valiant feeling like a shared universe are sadly gone and probably never coming back. The new model is that pretty much everything is a limited series and self-contained. For some odd reason, DMG has decided to mine all its lesser-known IP's (Psi-Lords, Punk Mambo, Roku, Dr. Tomorrow, the Visitor, etc.) while leaving the big guns mostly unseen for the last year. I mean, we couldn't have had an A-list character appear for an arc or even an issue of Livewire? The sales numbers and enthusiasm on the internet has shown that this has been a losing strategy. Everything used to feel like it mattered, but now there's too many series I don't care about, and they won't make any difference by the story's end anyway so I don't feel like I'm missing anything by passing them up.

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Re: Let’s talk solutions to fix Valiant!

Post by GammaJosh »

mateo107 wrote: For some odd reason, DMG has decided to mine all its lesser-known IP's (Psi-Lords, Punk Mambo, Roku, Dr. Tomorrow, the Visitor, etc.) while leaving the big guns mostly unseen for the last year. I mean, we couldn't have had an A-list character appear for an arc or even an issue of Livewire?
Just food for thought:
At the "height" of the Dinesh/Warren era, what was the highest number of classic tentpole characters that got a book during the same month? 5? 6? I'd argue that the warmest, fuzziest feelings were happening when there were only 5 or 6 books. Harbinger, X-0, Bloodshot, A&A, Shadowman, & Eternal Warrior. Shadowman and Eternal Warrior both flopped and from that point on titles started rotating. So I think the absolute pinnacle of fan-service re: classic characters was 6 titles, and that didn't last long.

Now, currently we have Bloodshot and Rai. I guess we'll discount Livewire, Punk Mambo, Killers and Roku from this year and not count them as Harbie, Shadowman and Ninjak books? So we're at 2 right now. X-0, Harbinger and Shadowman are all on their way. That's 5. Q&W is on the way too, so if you count them as a tentpole, that's 6.

So, at least in terms of number of tentpole characters getting books, if you're asking for more than what is currently announced, you're actually asking for more than Dinesh and Warren ever delivered.

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Re: Let’s talk solutions to fix Valiant!

Post by Dallow Spicer1 »

GammaJosh wrote:
mateo107 wrote: For some odd reason, DMG has decided to mine all its lesser-known IP's (Psi-Lords, Punk Mambo, Roku, Dr. Tomorrow, the Visitor, etc.) while leaving the big guns mostly unseen for the last year. I mean, we couldn't have had an A-list character appear for an arc or even an issue of Livewire?
Just food for thought:
At the "height" of the Dinesh/Warren era, what was the highest number of classic tentpole characters that got a book during the same month? 5? 6? I'd argue that the warmest, fuzziest feelings were happening when there were only 5 or 6 books. Harbinger, X-0, Bloodshot, A&A, Shadowman, & Eternal Warrior. Shadowman and Eternal Warrior both flopped and from that point on titles started rotating. So I think the absolute pinnacle of fan-service re: classic characters was 6 titles, and that didn't last long.

Now, currently we have Bloodshot and Rai. I guess we'll discount Livewire, Punk Mambo, Killers and Roku from this year and not count them as Harbie, Shadowman and Ninjak books? So we're at 2 right now. X-0, Harbinger and Shadowman are all on their way. That's 5. Q&W is on the way too, so if you count them as a tentpole, that's 6.

So, at least in terms of number of tentpole characters getting books, if you're asking for more than what is currently announced, you're actually asking for more than Dinesh and Warren ever delivered.
I think the key thing is not just bringing back tentpole characters but which creative teams they put on them. Yes in the Dinesh/Warren era there were some flops for sure but there was also some great books, currently we’ve got lots of flops and the occasional ‘ok’ book. I don’t think the current editorial team have earned the right to be so experimental as they haven’t delivered enough quality over the past 12 months+.

Be interesting this time next year how we view the books current Valiant have put out in 2020.

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Re: Let’s talk solutions to fix Valiant!

Post by nonplayer »

Hire someone who is a long time fan to do creative vision more continuity and use some of the treads already put in place by other regime. Stop screwing around and write captavating stories with good art.
Bring back staple charaters half rates are not cutting it
Female for female sake charaters is a stupid idea. Yes have females but also epic strong leads the buisness was formed on.
And when you say something for flork sake follow through or make an anouncment. Wishwash went out to dry and it old.
Interact with fans instead of the green milk ideology of disney.
I Miss the good old days.

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Re: Let’s talk solutions to fix Valiant!

Post by nonplayer »

reddog wrote:they replace creativity with greed
People should remember this when spending money. What do you think Disney +is or Christmas
I Miss the good old days.

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Re: Let’s talk solutions to fix Valiant!

Post by agent_graves »

kjjohanson wrote:I think this is at the core of what's missing from current Valiant; there's no hype machine for their books. Dinesh was constantly promoting the latest thing. Not just new titles, but new story arc, cool covers, etc. Even if the reality doesn't live up to the hype, one way to keep the business going is to keep fans excited.
THIS!!!!! This is sadly what’s missing. And it’s no way to recreate that energy, not with the current regime. :(
#StayValiant

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Re: Let’s talk solutions to fix Valiant!

Post by IMJ »

kjjohanson wrote:I think this is at the core of what's missing from current Valiant; there's no hype machine for their books.
I didn't even know the new Rai series came out. And it's basically the only Valiant character I'd maintained interest in to this point.

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Re: Let’s talk solutions to fix Valiant!

Post by kjjohanson »

agent_graves wrote:
kjjohanson wrote:I think this is at the core of what's missing from current Valiant; there's no hype machine for their books. Dinesh was constantly promoting the latest thing. Not just new titles, but new story arc, cool covers, etc. Even if the reality doesn't live up to the hype, one way to keep the business going is to keep fans excited.
THIS!!!!! This is sadly what’s missing. And it’s no way to recreate that energy, not with the current regime. :(
It seems we know more about the BadIdea projects than upcoming Valiant books. Realistically, no, we probably don't, but all of the constant hints that Dinesh drops on Twitter certainly has revved up all of the speculation and excitement.
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Re: Let’s talk solutions to fix Valiant!

Post by Dallow Spicer1 »

kjjohanson wrote:
agent_graves wrote:
kjjohanson wrote:I think this is at the core of what's missing from current Valiant; there's no hype machine for their books. Dinesh was constantly promoting the latest thing. Not just new titles, but new story arc, cool covers, etc. Even if the reality doesn't live up to the hype, one way to keep the business going is to keep fans excited.
THIS!!!!! This is sadly what’s missing. And it’s no way to recreate that energy, not with the current regime. :(
It seems we know more about the BadIdea projects than upcoming Valiant books. Realistically, no, we probably don't, but all of the constant hints that Dinesh drops on Twitter certainly has revved up all of the speculation and excitement.
To be fair, Dinesh is king of the hype, I’m not aware of anyone who can generate interest in books like he can. He just gets it.

I’m hyped for Bad Idea already!

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Re: Let’s talk solutions to fix Valiant!

Post by mateo107 »

GammaJosh wrote: I guess we'll discount Livewire, Punk Mambo, Killers and Roku from this year and not count them as Harbie, Shadowman and Ninjak books? So we're at 2 right now. X-0, Harbinger and Shadowman are all on their way. That's 5. Q&W is on the way too, so if you count them as a tentpole, that's 6.
No, I wouldn't count Livewire, Punk Mambo, Killers, and Roku as Harbinger, Shadowman, or Ninjak because none of those A-list characters appeared in them.

At their height, VEI often had around 7+ A-list books a month.

2013: X-O, Harbinger, Bloodshot, Archer & Armstrong, Shadowman, Quantum & Woody, Eternal Warrior, Unity
2014: X-O, Harbinger, Bloodshot, Archer & Armstrong, Shadowman, Quantum & Woody, Unity, Rai
2015: X-O, Imperium, Bloodshot, Quantum & Woody, Unity, Rai, Ninjak
2016: X-O, Harbinger, Bloodshot, Archer & Armstrong, Eternal Warrior, Ninjak, plus a little Faith and Rai

And they managed to throw in things like Doctor Mirage, Divinity, the Valiant, Brittania, Savage, etc. And if A-list characters didn't have their own series at the time they might still appear in other books.

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Re: Let’s talk solutions to fix Valiant!

Post by Shadowman99 »

I sometimes wonder if 'being past the honeymoon period' has a lot to do with how I/others feel less excited about Valiant these days.

When they launched in 2012 and ran the first couple of years everything was new and exciting and there was a ton of narrative-based speculation to be had. These days we've seen XO, we've seen Ninjak, we've seen Harbinger... All the biggest, best stuff. New titles and new characters these days can't possibly live up to the excitement that seeing some of our old favourites come back from the grave did, and so the VU seems less interesting.

Also, I think the lack of the sense of a shared universe these days, making the titles and characters feel increasingly disparate is reducing the amount of tension in the universe... Gone are the days when Master Darque or the Vine could potentially destroy the entire VU as we know it; anything that happens in any given title these days simply seems small and inconsequential as it can only affect the characters within that book. I know most here hated Harbinger Wars II, but stick with me for this point: Livewire shut down the power to the entire USA, but I can't remember that having even the slightest impact on ANY other title occurring at the same time in the VU :?

I also agree with the '0-hype' Valiant thing. I'm enjoying most of the current output, but the company isn't getting me hyped for any of it in advance :(
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Re: Let’s talk solutions to fix Valiant!

Post by mateo107 »

Shadowman99 wrote:Livewire shut down the power to the entire USA, but I can't remember that having even the slightest impact on ANY other title occurring at the same time in the VU
The power outage was shown in Quantum & Woody at the time (issue #6), although nothing else in that arc tied in to HWII.

reddog
100 posts! (if you round to the nearest 100)
100 posts! (if you round to the nearest 100)
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Valiant fan since: 1991
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Re: Let’s talk solutions to fix Valiant!

Post by reddog »

theres way to much psychoanalysis amd feel good emotional attachment to whatever books we liked in this post.....valiant writing sucks and seems to have been that way for awhile and the art is blurrily like most computer generated art you see even on a cereal box. theres also no thought in or behimd the stories other than what the writier wants to say. its a weird thing. the fact that valiantfans still exists is testament to the 35 people who keep buyimg their books and talking about them here.

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Phantom
I will call my mum and ask what the *SQUEE* is going on.
I will call my mum and ask what the *SQUEE* is going on.
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Re: Let’s talk solutions to fix Valiant!

Post by Phantom »

great post Shadowman99.

Maybe it was the honeymoon period, but it lasted a long time.
Just don't feel hype for the product.
Tried to get excited about relaunch of Rai, but wasn't. I was looking forward to it. But picked it up with other books, which I felt let down by. Which ~ although rai was great ~ my thoughts on the other books dragged it down.

Dropped pretty much everything ~ I think only have Rai on order, even the titles don't excite me, but don't judge a book by its cover. Livewire 12 was a kick in the face, felt that that needed a lot more work before being released.
Trudging on with PSi lords.

Maybe its just a low period, and things will get better.


Maybe I am out of the loop as not on twitter,
I wish their was a Spinal Tap comic, and I had a copy CGC graded at 11.


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