Valiant just launched an official Discord

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Valiant just launched an official Discord

Post by Coffee »

https://twitter.com/ValiantComics/statu ... 3259711501

It's a huge NFT (non-fungible token) push. 99% of the chatter is about NFTs and crypto trading by investors who otherwise know nothing about Valiant. Looks like this is going to be a part of Valiant going forward.

Lots of comics hype in a comics-focused channel on the server.

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Re: Valiant just launched an official Discord

Post by TheFerg714 »

I genuinely don't understand why Valiant would do this. It's like they refuse to cater to the real fans, and instead try to go after these weird markets that don't give a *SQUEE* about comics. What's the rationale here?

More importantly, why didn't they share the link here? Seems like they really don't care about the hardcore OG fans.

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Re: Valiant just launched an official Discord

Post by Dallow Spicer1 »

Coffee wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:41:46 pm https://twitter.com/ValiantComics/statu ... 3259711501

It's a huge NFT (non-fungible token) push. 99% of the chatter is about NFTs and crypto trading by investors who otherwise know nothing about Valiant. Looks like this is going to be a part of Valiant going forward.

Lots of comics hype in a comics-focused channel on the server.
So are DMG Valiant driving the conversation? Are they meant to be talking about non-comic stuff or has it been hijacked?

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Re: Valiant just launched an official Discord

Post by Chiclo »

Dallow Spicer1 wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 12:28:31 pm
Coffee wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:41:46 pm https://twitter.com/ValiantComics/statu ... 3259711501

It's a huge NFT (non-fungible token) push. 99% of the chatter is about NFTs and crypto trading by investors who otherwise know nothing about Valiant. Looks like this is going to be a part of Valiant going forward.

Lots of comics hype in a comics-focused channel on the server.
So are DMG Valiant driving the conversation? Are they meant to be talking about non-comic stuff or has it been hijacked?
It would have to be non-comic stuff. There is not enough comic stuff to spur much discussion.

I am not real sure what discord is anyways.

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Re: Valiant just launched an official Discord

Post by Dallow Spicer1 »

Chiclo wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 3:31:49 pm
Dallow Spicer1 wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 12:28:31 pm
Coffee wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:41:46 pm https://twitter.com/ValiantComics/statu ... 3259711501

It's a huge NFT (non-fungible token) push. 99% of the chatter is about NFTs and crypto trading by investors who otherwise know nothing about Valiant. Looks like this is going to be a part of Valiant going forward.

Lots of comics hype in a comics-focused channel on the server.
So are DMG Valiant driving the conversation? Are they meant to be talking about non-comic stuff or has it been hijacked?
It would have to be non-comic stuff. There is not enough comic stuff to spur much discussion.

I am not real sure what discord is anyways.
Have they got a complaints department in this discord thingy, that might generate quite a bit of discussion? :lol:

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Re: Valiant just launched an official Discord

Post by SwiftMann »

TheFerg714 wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:45:45 pm More importantly, why didn't they share the link here? Seems like they really don't care about the hardcore OG fans.
They don't. Not sure why folks here think they suddenly should. Or will.
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Re: Valiant just launched an official Discord

Post by Dallow Spicer1 »

SwiftMann wrote: Thu Dec 23, 2021 11:19:18 am
TheFerg714 wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:45:45 pm More importantly, why didn't they share the link here? Seems like they really don't care about the hardcore OG fans.
They don't. Not sure why folks here think they suddenly should. Or will.
We’re not DMG’s audience clearly…otherwise they would have acted on the feedback over the past 3 years. Why would they, this sites only the place where hardcore Valiant fans have kept the interest in the books going all these years.
I’m sure Gregg K has been telling the people in charge but obviously they haven’t listened. Gregg knows quality comic books and he also knows DMG are not producing good books that people will be re-reading in years to come (not his words).

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Re: Valiant just launched an official Discord

Post by SwiftMann »

Dallow Spicer1 wrote: Thu Dec 23, 2021 12:14:27 pmWhy would they, this sites only the place where hardcore Valiant fans have kept the interest in the books going all these years.
My point being, the hardcores can't keep the brand alive. There isn't enough revenue from such a small group. That's proven itself over how many iterations of Valiant now? Five? Granted, the quality hasn't been there at the end for any of them (inlcuding Dinesh's run), but even if it was the diehard audience isn't big enough to keep them afloat.

DMG is trying to make money (we assume, they clearly aren't trying hard). That's not coming from 2500 lifers.

Look at Image which launched a little before Valiant. No one is looking for Youngblood or CyberForce* or WildC.A.T.s or ShadowHawk. Spawn inexplicably keeps bringing in new blood. Larsen wills Savage Dragon to keep going because he wants to and can. But Image as a whole had to completely shift it's model and approach before year 10. Valiant keeps trying the same thing over and over and over again. And any time they try something different, it's met with ridicule or silence.


*Sure, there's a Kickstarter for this that was successful, but that's not a publishing company trying to appeal to the masses.
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Re: Valiant just launched an official Discord

Post by Dallow Spicer1 »

SwiftMann wrote: Fri Dec 24, 2021 3:24:57 pm
Dallow Spicer1 wrote: Thu Dec 23, 2021 12:14:27 pmWhy would they, this sites only the place where hardcore Valiant fans have kept the interest in the books going all these years.
My point being, the hardcores can't keep the brand alive. There isn't enough revenue from such a small group. That's proven itself over how many iterations of Valiant now? Five? Granted, the quality hasn't been there at the end for any of them (inlcuding Dinesh's run), but even if it was the diehard audience isn't big enough to keep them afloat.

DMG is trying to make money (we assume, they clearly aren't trying hard). That's not coming from 2500 lifers.

Look at Image which launched a little before Valiant. No one is looking for Youngblood or CyberForce* or WildC.A.T.s or ShadowHawk. Spawn inexplicably keeps bringing in new blood. Larsen wills Savage Dragon to keep going because he wants to and can. But Image as a whole had to completely shift it's model and approach before year 10. Valiant keeps trying the same thing over and over and over again. And any time they try something different, it's met with ridicule or silence.


*Sure, there's a Kickstarter for this that was successful, but that's not a publishing company trying to appeal to the masses.
I kind of disagree…I think Dinesh would have (slowly) grown the readership. He’s the best hype man in comics and I think he would have created growth from the Bloodshot movie. Obviously not enough from just that event to be a game changer but it could have given the company an injection of momentum.

But, and here’s the insane bit, DMG chose to disregard the 2500 lifers and chase an imaginary audience which the likes of Heather Antos, Joe Illidge etc convinced the gullible higher ups was out there and all they needed to do was ‘amplify voices’ and the readers would come flocking (even though this has happened nowhere else).

So, I do think under Dinesh there would have been steady growth.

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Re: Valiant just launched an official Discord

Post by SwiftMann »

Yeah, we're going to just have to agree to the disagreement. Other than the months when Unity #1 and Book of Death #1 shipped, overall sales were fairly static from 2013-2016. Then it was just a roller coaster of new #1s buoying overall sales for 2017 but still a very noticeable decline. Look at any sales charts and map it out and you'll see that EVERY title would have some 15-30k #1 sales and immediately crash to 5-8k sales for #2 on in a straight line for the rest of the run. Every character. Every series from 2016 on.

To the point that February 2018 was the lowest multi-title month ever. DMG's takeover being announced January 29th, 2018 meaning the Dinesh iteration was already at its sales nadir. So, I don't see any evidence that Dinesh was going to turn the ship around. Particularly with the quality of the books at the time or any version of the Bloodshot movie with or without covid.
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Re: Valiant just launched an official Discord

Post by Dallow Spicer1 »

SwiftMann wrote: Fri Dec 24, 2021 4:07:29 pm
To the point that February 2018 was the lowest multi-title month ever. DMG's takeover being announced January 29th, 2018 meaning the Dinesh iteration was already at its sales nadir. So, I don't see any evidence that Dinesh was going to turn the ship around. Particularly with the quality of the books at the time or any version of the Bloodshot movie with or without covid.
You’ll have to refresh my memory about the quality of the books? Didn’t we have Lemire on Bloodshot, Larosa on Savage, Kindt on Ninjak around that time or am I misremembering?
I don’t think Kindt’s run on XO was particularly good but he did well on Rai and Ninjak.

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Re: Valiant just launched an official Discord

Post by SwiftMann »

Dallow Spicer1 wrote: Fri Dec 24, 2021 5:25:57 pm
SwiftMann wrote: Fri Dec 24, 2021 4:07:29 pm
To the point that February 2018 was the lowest multi-title month ever. DMG's takeover being announced January 29th, 2018 meaning the Dinesh iteration was already at its sales nadir. So, I don't see any evidence that Dinesh was going to turn the ship around. Particularly with the quality of the books at the time or any version of the Bloodshot movie with or without covid.
You’ll have to refresh my memory about the quality of the books? Didn’t we have Lemire on Bloodshot, Larosa on Savage, Kindt on Ninjak around that time or am I misremembering?
I don’t think Kindt’s run on XO was particularly good but he did well on Rai and Ninjak.
Looking at July-December 2017 (so leading into the low point and DMG takeover)

X-O #5-10: To be fair, it was the second year of this title that wasn't very good. These issues were engaging.

Harbinger: Renegade #5-9, 0: For me this was a real mixed bag, but I believe most here loathed it.

Bloodshot's Day Off & Salvation #1-4: I loved Reborn. A hiccup here and there on Salvation, but generally good.

Shadowman/Rae Sremmurd - Cross-promotional nonsense.

Eternity #1-3: Tried so hard to be "important" and was mostly rambling nonsense.

Ninja-K #1-2: Never been much of a Ninjak fan and didn't enjoy this at all. I had also burned out on Kindt's monologue as storytelling device long before this series.

Faith and the Future Force #1-4, Winter Special: I enjoyed Future Force, but it was popcorn flick time travel. Winter Special was AWFUL.

War Mother #1-4: Just no.

Secret Weapons #2-4: This was some good reading.

Earlier in the year wrapped up the atrocious A&A run. A surprisingly good Q&W run kicked off at year end (but the diehards hate Q&W). And the clownshow that was Ninjak vs the Valiant Universe was complete and just around the corner.

So, for me, Valiant was a real mixed bag at this point. Compared to the earlier years it was definitely a decline in overall quality. Nothing compared to now though.
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Re: Valiant just launched an official Discord

Post by Dallow Spicer1 »

Fair point on the mixed bag .

X-O #5-10: I thought had potential but by the end of Kindt’s run it felt disappointing.

Harbinger: Renegade #5-9, 0: I quite liked Renegade.

Bloodshot's Day Off & Salvation #1-4: very solid and in comparison to DMG’s output would be considered a ‘masterpiece’

Shadowman/Rae Sremmurd - bizarre!

Eternity #1-3: I liked this from memory

Ninja-K #1-2: this was intriguing and expanded the Ninjak- mythos. Again compete this to DMG Ninjak.

Faith and the Future Force #1-4, Winter Special: this wasn’t my cup of tea but I think this was one of VEI’s efforts at reaching another audience (if it exists in significant numbers which I’m not sure I believe it does)

War Mother #1-4: FVL garbage. One of my biggest criticisms of VEI would be the number of titles they gave to FVL. Good idea, terrible execution.

Secret Weapons #2-4: very good series .

A&A run. Not a fan of A&A but the art choice was not good
Q&W Not a big Q&W fan, can’t remember this one much. From memory I thought the Kibblesmith take was the best.
Ninjak vs the Valiant Universe. I enjoyed this for what it was, a low budget but well meaning action series. The print version was an out of continuity take and a decent read.

So without VDitti and Dysart this period of VEI was perhaps not peak, but I’d settle for that mixed bag over what we have today.

Sales wise I’m sure DMG would like to match the sakes under Dinesh. At least he had people talking about the characters. Now no one can be bothered to buy, read and review the current content on the main Valiant fan site.

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Re: Valiant just launched an official Discord

Post by SwiftMann »

I thought War Mother was a terrible idea with decent execution, but I like FVL.

The Nijak vs Valiant Universe film/shorts were an absolute embarrassment.
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Re: Valiant just launched an official Discord

Post by TheFerg714 »

SwiftMann wrote: Fri Dec 24, 2021 3:24:57 pm My point being, the hardcores can't keep the brand alive. There isn't enough revenue from such a small group. That's proven itself over how many iterations of Valiant now? Five? Granted, the quality hasn't been there at the end for any of them (inlcuding Dinesh's run), but even if it was the diehard audience isn't big enough to keep them afloat.
Wow, I could not disagree more. First of all, why are you implying that every iteration of Valiant has been the exact same? I'd say VH1 was going for a different audience than VEI, and Acclaim was obviously going after a different audience as well. More importantly, I think the final couple years of Dinesh's run was just as great as the previous years, with a few missteps (which is to be expected in the 6-7th year of publishing). Idk why you're weirdly focusing on the second half of 2017, when in reality, Dinesh's run didn't truly end until Dec. 2018. Books that he (and Warren, and others) cultivated, continued on into DMG's tenure, including the late LaDoTH.

To be more fair, here's everything from 2017/2018.
Kindt's X-O- Messy second half, but overall a fun, and ambitious read.
Seven Blade of Master Darque- Kindt's Ninjak could be hit-or-miss, but he killed it on the finale.
Rapture- Fun adventure into the Deadside and a ton of development for Shadowman.
Faith's last couple arcs, Future Force, and Dreamside- Honestly nothing to complain about here. These are solid, if basic, superhero stories.
Bloodshot Salvation- Messy, but I mean it's Lemire. Of course it's good.
Ninja-K- Better than Kindt's Ninjak.
Secret Weapons- Incredible.
2017 Q&W- The best Q&W run, by a country mile.
Eternity- Not nearly as bad as you're making it out to be. Almost as good as Divinity.
Brittania 2 and 3- Incredible.
War Mother- Awesome concept, really good execution. Why do you have a problem with this?
Diggle's Shadowman- Top-tier.
Harbinger Wars II- A complete mess, but not entirely Dino's fault.
Harbinger Renegade Vol. 2- I liked it, but can't really defend this one.
Gen. Zero- Didn't like this one either.
Finally, they produced several one-shots, which ranged from good to incredible.

And then you have stuff like Rae Sremmurd, Ninjak vs, and Valiant High, which are completely tangential and shouldn't have any bearing on how you view the overall quality of the last couple VEI years.

So yea, that was a roundabout way of saying I completely disagree with your assessment of the end of Dinesh's run.
SwiftMann wrote: Fri Dec 24, 2021 3:24:57 pm DMG is trying to make money (we assume, they clearly aren't trying hard). That's not coming from 2500 lifers.
Okay... then where's the money going to come from exactly? :lol: They're obviously not having any luck branching out, so the logical conclusion would be to cater to the hardcore fans first, and then try to branch out to new markets.

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Re: Valiant just launched an official Discord

Post by Dallow Spicer1 »

TheFerg714 wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 12:17:52 pm Okay... then where's the money going to come from exactly? :lol: They're obviously not having any luck branching out, so the logical conclusion would be to cater to the hardcore fans first, and then try to branch out to new markets.
Yeah, I would LOVE to have someone from DMG explain why they’d turn their back in 2,500 hardcore fans (although I think the real number is 3412 or whatever the print run of LADOTH was!)? This seems incredibly bad business.

Initially you could argue it was incompetence, but after the feedback from fans they doubled down and hired Heather Antos so this was a deliberate ploy.

Who is ultimately to blame for the hires? Fred Pierce?

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Re: Valiant just launched an official Discord

Post by SwiftMann »

TheFerg714 wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 12:17:52 pm First of all, why are you implying that every iteration of Valiant has been the exact same?
I'm not saying they were exactly the same. I'm saying the characters don't have mass appeal.
Idk why you're weirdly focusing on the second half of 2017, when in reality, Dinesh's run didn't truly end until Dec. 2018
a) The sales really tumbled in the second half of 2017 and b) Harbinger Wars II came out in Spring 2018 and was already heavily altered from Dinesh's plans. Didn't feel like trying to parse out what was and wasn't DMG.
DMG is trying to make money (we assume, they clearly aren't trying hard). That's not coming from 2500 lifers.
Okay... then where's the money going to come from exactly? :lol: They're obviously not having any luck branching out, so the logical conclusion would be to cater to the hardcore fans first, and then try to branch out to new markets.
The money would come from putting out quality material and marketing to current comic fans. They aren't doing this either. And this line of characters obviously hasn't appealed to a wide market since 1994 (thus the "how many iterations" comment). Catering to hardcore fans AND trying to find an additional market hasn't worked through Birthquake or Acclaim or Dinesh or DMG. The point being, again, that there aren't enough hardcore fans to financially keep these titles afloat while trying to also translate those stories to a new audience. How many times do they need to try and sell similar stories to a diminishing audience?

I've spent a good bit of time on a comic forum with a wider and younger audience. An audience that adores Higgins or Cates or Tynion or Vaughn or Hickman or, ugh, current Spawn. It's not the same mindset or approach to comics most of us probably have coming out of the 90s or 00s at the latest. Most haven't even heard of Valiant because their shops don't have them and the brand has had zero marketing impact outside of the diehards in many, many years. Those that have read various VEI launch titles seem to enjoy certain ones, but the million mini-series and restarts and bad word of mouth about current Valiant seems to keep them from diving in too deep.

So, I get the rational of saying, "why try, let's go for something completely different." It hasn't worked for DMG to date. It probably won't because they do seem inept. But "traditional" Valiant that appeals to the folks here clearly doesn't seem to work in today's (or 2017's) market. It's very easy to see this stuff going to a crowd-funding/print-on-demand model that several small publishers utilize (some exclusively).
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Re: Valiant just launched an official Discord

Post by SwiftMann »

Dallow Spicer1 wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 12:31:05 pm I think the real number is 3412 or whatever the print run of LADOTH was!)?
304 clearly bough the four covers of each issue. :wink:
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Re: Valiant just launched an official Discord

Post by Dallow Spicer1 »

SwiftMann wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 2:03:05 pm
Dallow Spicer1 wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 12:31:05 pm I think the real number is 3412 or whatever the print run of LADOTH was!)?
304 clearly bough the four covers of each issue. :wink:
:lol:

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Re: Valiant just launched an official Discord

Post by TheFerg714 »

SwiftMann wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 1:47:36 pm a) The sales really tumbled in the second half of 2017 and b) Harbinger Wars II came out in Spring 2018 and was already heavily altered from Dinesh's plans. Didn't feel like trying to parse out what was and wasn't DMG.
a) Okay, I was more responding to this: "the quality hasn't been there at the end for any of them (inlcuding Dinesh's run)." b) HW2 was heavily altered for sure, but that doesn't change the fact that the series I mentioned continued on past the time that DMG took over. I think it's pretty clear that the quality didn't drop until DMG started releasing it's own books.
The money would come from putting out quality material and marketing to current comic fans.
Okay, yes, that would be an ideal third option, but catering to the hardcore fans would still be my first option, if I was in charge. Plus, this is pretty vague. Current comic fans are already reading Marvel, DC, and Image. It's a whole other question trying to pull those people's attentions over to Valiant.

In response to the rest of your comment, I think Dinesh and co. were doing a very good job at catering to the hardcore fans, as well as "modern" comic fans. I honestly believe, given another 5-10 years, they could have turned Valiant into a true powerhouse.

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Dallow Spicer1
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Rockin' out in Torquehalla
Posts: 2456
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:19:05 am
Valiant fan since: Mid 90's
Favorite character: X-O
Favorite title: X-O
Favorite writer: V-Ditti & Dysart
Favorite artist: Larosa
Location: United Kingdom
Re: Valiant just launched an official Discord

Post by Dallow Spicer1 »

TheFerg714 wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 3:27:02 pm I honestly believe, given another 5-10 years, they could have turned Valiant into a true powerhouse.
I agree that given time Dinesh would have significantly grown the company. Who’d have realistically thought only a few years ago that there’d be a live action Bloodshot movie? If Dinesh can make that happen then how can we doubt the other possibilities.

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leonmallett
My mind is sharp. Like a sharp thing.
My mind is sharp. Like a sharp thing.
Posts: 9444
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 9:39:01 am
Valiant fan since: 2006
Favorite character: Shadowman (Hall version)
Favorite title: Shadowman (under Hall)
Favorite writer: Fred Van Lente
Favorite artist: Clayton Henry
Location: hunting down paulsmith56 somewhere in the balti belt...
Re: Valiant just launched an official Discord

Post by leonmallett »

Dallow Spicer1 wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 3:33:58 pm
TheFerg714 wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 3:27:02 pm I honestly believe, given another 5-10 years, they could have turned Valiant into a true powerhouse.
I agree that given time Dinesh would have significantly grown the company. Who’d have realistically thought only a few years ago that there’d be a live action Bloodshot movie? If Dinesh can make that happen then how can we doubt the other possibilities.
He had 5 years though, didn't he? :?
VEI - I look forward to you one day publishing MORE than 9-10 books per month

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leonmallett
My mind is sharp. Like a sharp thing.
My mind is sharp. Like a sharp thing.
Posts: 9444
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 9:39:01 am
Valiant fan since: 2006
Favorite character: Shadowman (Hall version)
Favorite title: Shadowman (under Hall)
Favorite writer: Fred Van Lente
Favorite artist: Clayton Henry
Location: hunting down paulsmith56 somewhere in the balti belt...
Re: Valiant just launched an official Discord

Post by leonmallett »

TheFerg714 wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:45:45 pm I genuinely don't understand why Valiant would do this. It's like they refuse to cater to the real fans, and instead try to go after these weird markets that don't give a *SQUEE* about comics. What's the rationale here?

More importantly, why didn't they share the link here? Seems like they really don't care about the hardcore OG fans.
How many people actively use this board? 25? 50? 100? The numbers would not be represent anything other than a small proportion of readership, and for DMG, a lot of what they have done has been decried here, so why would they actively pursue this board's active membership.
VEI - I look forward to you one day publishing MORE than 9-10 books per month

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Dallow Spicer1
Rockin' out in Torquehalla
Rockin' out in Torquehalla
Posts: 2456
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:19:05 am
Valiant fan since: Mid 90's
Favorite character: X-O
Favorite title: X-O
Favorite writer: V-Ditti & Dysart
Favorite artist: Larosa
Location: United Kingdom
Re: Valiant just launched an official Discord

Post by Dallow Spicer1 »

leonmallett wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 2:03:14 pm
Dallow Spicer1 wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 3:33:58 pm
TheFerg714 wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 3:27:02 pm I honestly believe, given another 5-10 years, they could have turned Valiant into a true powerhouse.
I agree that given time Dinesh would have significantly grown the company. Who’d have realistically thought only a few years ago that there’d be a live action Bloodshot movie? If Dinesh can make that happen then how can we doubt the other possibilities.
He had 5 years though, didn't he? :?
You think 5 years is a long time to resurrect a company and make it a huge success???

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Dallow Spicer1
Rockin' out in Torquehalla
Rockin' out in Torquehalla
Posts: 2456
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:19:05 am
Valiant fan since: Mid 90's
Favorite character: X-O
Favorite title: X-O
Favorite writer: V-Ditti & Dysart
Favorite artist: Larosa
Location: United Kingdom
Re: Valiant just launched an official Discord

Post by Dallow Spicer1 »

leonmallett wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 2:05:47 pm
TheFerg714 wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:45:45 pm I genuinely don't understand why Valiant would do this. It's like they refuse to cater to the real fans, and instead try to go after these weird markets that don't give a *SQUEE* about comics. What's the rationale here?

More importantly, why didn't they share the link here? Seems like they really don't care about the hardcore OG fans.
How many people actively use this board? 25? 50? 100? The numbers would not be represent anything other than a small proportion of readership, and for DMG, a lot of what they have done has been decried here, so why would they actively pursue this board's active membership.
How many were active during the VEI period? A hell of a lot more than now (because of the dross put out by DMG). What kind of business model dumps certain, well established business to chase some unicorn fantasy audience which has established nowhere despite Marvel and DC’s best efforts and all of the marketing dollars that have behind them.

Guess DMG are not aware of the saying ‘a bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush’.


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