*Counterfeit Valiant Update- Midnight, On Earth w/ Jim Shooter Ep 89 - NEW EPISODE

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Re: *Counterfeit Valiant Update- Midnight, On Earth w/ Jim Shooter Ep 89 - NEW EPISODE

Post by Blood of Heroes »

Why can’t you prove a negative, Greg? Why? What are you hiding?

Is it Jon Hartz? Are you hiding Jon Hartz? You’re hiding Jon Hartz.

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Re: *Counterfeit Valiant Update- Midnight, On Earth w/ Jim Shooter Ep 89 - NEW EPISODE

Post by greg »

valiantdude wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 12:55:42 pm because obviously we need a third opinion. Jim hates Fred, Fred screwed over Jim. they are both going off a 30 year memory. But it stuck with jim because of what he said in the 1st podcast episode. Jim Shooter started all of this. Period.
Yeah youre probably right about the solars being a printing error, but that doesnt change the original story.
Dinesh Shamdasani said there are no counterfeit Valiant books last year.

I'm confident that if they existed, Dinesh would have at least one of every issue. He was able to buy the cover art for Amazing Spider-Man #300, and there's only one of those. There should be thousands of counterfeit Valiant books, and he would have been able to find at least one.
dino wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:54:56 pm Image
The logical conclusion, which is by no means 100% certain, just like we don't know whether the sun will rise tomorrow... is that there aren't any counterfeit Valiant books.

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Re: *Counterfeit Valiant Update- Midnight, On Earth w/ Jim Shooter Ep 89 - NEW EPISODE

Post by greg »

Blood of Heroes wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 1:39:34 pm Why can’t you prove a negative, Greg? Why? What are you hiding?

Is it Jon Hartz? Are you hiding Jon Hartz? You’re hiding Jon Hartz.
I am Jon Hartz.

Always have been.

Image

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Re: *Counterfeit Valiant Update- Midnight, On Earth w/ Jim Shooter Ep 89 - NEW EPISODE

Post by greg »

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Re: *Counterfeit Valiant Update- Midnight, On Earth w/ Jim Shooter Ep 89 - NEW EPISODE

Post by Blood of Heroes »

greg wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 1:38:08 pm and we've established in this very topic that I don't post trustworthy information.
I about choked laughing at this :lol:

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Re: *Counterfeit Valiant Update- Midnight, On Earth w/ Jim Shooter Ep 89 - NEW EPISODE

Post by Chiclo »

greg wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 1:44:59 pm
Blood of Heroes wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 1:39:34 pm Why can’t you prove a negative, Greg? Why? What are you hiding?

Is it Jon Hartz? Are you hiding Jon Hartz? You’re hiding Jon Hartz.
I am Jon Hartz.

Always have been.

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I have always been here.
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Re: *Counterfeit Valiant Update- Midnight, On Earth w/ Jim Shooter Ep 89 - NEW EPISODE

Post by Chiclo »

greg wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 1:38:08 pm
Chiclo wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 1:01:24 pm
greg wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 12:59:42 pm Since the fake Valiant company wrote their name inside in 2007, it was pretty easy to identify those. Assuming the same company that produced the "Sneak Peak" was involved in 1992, we should be looking for "Soler" and "Magnius" books.
They did make a Soler statue… :hm:
I'm surprised you're saying that Valiant Intellectual Properties (VIP) is the same company as Dynamic Forces. That's based on information posted by me, and we've established in this very topic that I don't post trustworthy information. You should probably keep asking the question... "WHO WAS VIP?"
Say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, but at least it’s an ethos.

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Re: *Counterfeit Valiant Update- Midnight, On Earth w/ Jim Shooter Ep 89 - NEW EPISODE

Post by greg »

Chiclo wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 2:04:52 pm
greg wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 1:38:08 pm
Chiclo wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 1:01:24 pm
greg wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 12:59:42 pm Since the fake Valiant company wrote their name inside in 2007, it was pretty easy to identify those. Assuming the same company that produced the "Sneak Peak" was involved in 1992, we should be looking for "Soler" and "Magnius" books.
They did make a Soler statue… :hm:
I'm surprised you're saying that Valiant Intellectual Properties (VIP) is the same company as Dynamic Forces. That's based on information posted by me, and we've established in this very topic that I don't post trustworthy information. You should probably keep asking the question... "WHO WAS VIP?"
Say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, but at least it’s an ethos.
You want a toe? I can get you a toe, believe me. There are ways, Dude. You don't wanna know about it, believe me. I can't get you a counterfeit Valiant book, but I can get you a toe.

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Re: *Counterfeit Valiant Update- Midnight, On Earth w/ Jim Shooter Ep 89 - NEW EPISODE

Post by Chiclo »

greg wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 2:11:56 pm
Chiclo wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 2:04:52 pm
greg wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 1:38:08 pm
Chiclo wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 1:01:24 pm
greg wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 12:59:42 pm Since the fake Valiant company wrote their name inside in 2007, it was pretty easy to identify those. Assuming the same company that produced the "Sneak Peak" was involved in 1992, we should be looking for "Soler" and "Magnius" books.
They did make a Soler statue… :hm:
I'm surprised you're saying that Valiant Intellectual Properties (VIP) is the same company as Dynamic Forces. That's based on information posted by me, and we've established in this very topic that I don't post trustworthy information. You should probably keep asking the question... "WHO WAS VIP?"
Say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, but at least it’s an ethos.
You want a toe? I can get you a toe, believe me. There are ways, Dude. You don't wanna know about it, believe me. I can't get you a counterfeit Valiant book, but I can get you a toe.
There are holes in your story, greg.

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Re: *Counterfeit Valiant Update- Midnight, On Earth w/ Jim Shooter Ep 89 - NEW EPISODE

Post by greg »

Chiclo wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 2:27:09 pm
greg wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 2:11:56 pm
Chiclo wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 2:04:52 pm
greg wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 1:38:08 pm
Chiclo wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 1:01:24 pm
greg wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 12:59:42 pm Since the fake Valiant company wrote their name inside in 2007, it was pretty easy to identify those. Assuming the same company that produced the "Sneak Peak" was involved in 1992, we should be looking for "Soler" and "Magnius" books.
They did make a Soler statue… :hm:
I'm surprised you're saying that Valiant Intellectual Properties (VIP) is the same company as Dynamic Forces. That's based on information posted by me, and we've established in this very topic that I don't post trustworthy information. You should probably keep asking the question... "WHO WAS VIP?"
Say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, but at least it’s an ethos.
You want a toe? I can get you a toe, believe me. There are ways, Dude. You don't wanna know about it, believe me. I can't get you a counterfeit Valiant book, but I can get you a toe.
There are holes in your story, greg.
Let's fill those holes with actual copies of counterfeit Valiant books. Who's going to throw the first one in?

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Re: *Counterfeit Valiant Update- Midnight, On Earth w/ Jim Shooter Ep 89 - NEW EPISODE

Post by Blood of Heroes »

Your hole is my goal

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Re: *Counterfeit Valiant Update- Midnight, On Earth w/ Jim Shooter Ep 89 - NEW EPISODE

Post by greg »

Blood of Heroes wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 2:43:07 pm Your hole is my goal
That's golf, goof. Pay attention.
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Re: *Counterfeit Valiant Update- Midnight, On Earth w/ Jim Shooter Ep 89 - NEW EPISODE

Post by valiantdude »

first of all, Birthday Cake Boy doesnt count.. at all. He wasnt there in 1991-1992 was he? All BCB is doing is parroting Fred.
This is all Jim Shooter, who I guess you guys think is worthless, but i seem to remember Greg saying differently on the podcast.
Like i said, he both, started, deferred to Fred, and brought more names and memories to beef up the counterfeit side.
Sorry if you cant see the obvious issues.
So again, lets do this again:

Sparta Print Shop printers were stealing ORDERED books over several months, books that were supposed to be on the final tally, and somehow all the stores were missing a few each, or was one store missing their whole order, how does that work? But that is the 'official' story (Greg says this is true from sources)

Retailers don't notice for months somehow, never report it to distributor or never get acknowledged by Voyager, because it takes a sting to catch them in another context, not missing books from printer (This is also supposed to be true)

The print shop employees stock pile books for several months AND also liquidate them somehow in small amounts. In time word gets out somehow there are people selling back-door books (This is implied, but also touched on by Jim)

Word gets to Voyager and the situation is characterized as 'Counterfeits Books' (Jim Shooter has re-iterated this from the 2 podcasts and an email)
Jon Hartz says counterfeit books (Jim Shooter - email)
Word around the Voyager office again states bogus books (Jim Shooter - email)

Even though the thieving employees had successful avenues selling the books already, enough to get noticed later, they chose to sell them all in bulk, out of the trunk of a car, books they had collected for months and already had places to move them.

Fred Pierce finds the people and sets up a 'Sting' (aptly Valiant related) with authorities.

Somehow on the phone call or when at the meeting before the buy, they acknowledged they are fenced goods, and they are not just avid comic collectors, establishing illegality, and are arrested.

I'm sorry, please correct this if this is wrong.

You say there are no fakes, maybe, maybe not. Personally I think its too weird.

The official story seems ridiculous, at least you can admit that right?

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Re: *Counterfeit Valiant Update- Midnight, On Earth w/ Jim Shooter Ep 89 - NEW EPISODE

Post by Chiclo »

Wait, are you citing Jon Hartz? Have you got a record of his side of all this?

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Re: *Counterfeit Valiant Update- Midnight, On Earth w/ Jim Shooter Ep 89 - NEW EPISODE

Post by greg »

valiantdude wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 2:57:50 pm The official story seems ridiculous, at least you can admit that right?
I don't know what happened, and neither does anyone else in this discussion, however...

There's nothing preposterous about the scenario:

Guy works at Sparta printing company and sees that Valiant books are hot.
Guy knows that distributors get incorrect quantities all the time, simple mix-up, honest mistake.
Distributor reports it, publisher is made aware, standard stuff, cost-of-doing-business normal.

Guy pulls a few books for himself from the Valiant books supposed to go to the distributor(s) - more than one distributor, it's 1992.
He could have just pulled a case or two from the biggest distributor because they'd miss it the least.
They'd report it, but that's a note in a ledger, not a great mystery for the ages.
Guy sells those books "on the side" because Valiant books are hot.

Nothing crazy here, right? This scenario is easier than printing fake books in 1992 that could pass for the real thing, that's for sure.

Maybe the guy doesn't get caught immediately, so he goes for more books next time. He eventually ends up with lots of Valiant books.
They're all legit books, because they were stolen from the printer boxes on the way to the distributors.
The distributors would run their counts and they'd come up short. If there were extras printed for re-orders (standard practice),
then the distributor would still supply all the ordered copies to comic shops, they'd just have fewer extras available for re-orders.

I can see it, surely you can see it, too. It's a scenario that makes sense and doesn't require more than one guy at Sparta and a lack of ethics.
Let's face it, the alternative is that a guy somewhere is printing fake Valiant books, so that's going to be a lack of ethics in any scenario we pick.

Word gets back to "probably" Jon Hartz (Jim Shooter said "probably") that there's a guy with bogus books in the midwest.
What would cause that kind of description? Bogus books? Pretty much anything that implies the guy has books that aren't from a legitimate source.
There is no legit way to get Valiant books in 1992 that don't come from one of the distributors, so the guy has bogus books.

Somebody who knows (probably) Jon Hartz hears the story (or is involved in the story) and doesn't like what he hears.
Valiant books for sale, but the guy can't explain how he got them, or his story doesn't make sense.
Whatever the scenario, someone calls (probably) Jon Hartz and says "we got a guy out here with bogus books".
Maybe he said "we got a guy out here with a bogus story about Valiant books". Who knows?

It all makes perfect sense. It's also much more plausible than a guy somewhere printing thousands of different issues of Valiant books in 1992 and getting them into circulation without anyone noticing they're counterfeit.

It was (probably) Jon who tells Jim Shooter. Jim Shooter has too many things to do (his words), so he tells Fred Pierce. Fred Pierce says he'll take it from there.

29 years later, in 2021, I hear about the story and reach out to someone on the inside. I'm allowed to make the following statement, exactly quoted:
"I have an inside source who confirmed a crime was discovered related to early Valiant books, it was investigated, there was an arrest, but there were no counterfeit books involved."

There is no scenario which involves someone printing counterfeit Valiant books in 1992 that no one was able to identify, getting those books into circulation, and have it be thousands of copies of different Valiant issues, which still can't be identified as counterfeit in 2022, which is more plausible than the scenario above.

"Bogus books" is a correct description of legit copies that didn't come from a distributor in 1992. It doesn't make them counterfeit, but it does sound like it. Honest mistake.
For all we know, the guy had Amazing Spider-Man #361 among his "bogus books". It was hot, too. It even went to a second printing.
Maybe he had Death of Superman books. Maybe he had Spawn books. Who knows? There are no counterfeit copies of any of those books from the 1990s either. Not one has been found, certainly not thousands.

No one at Valiant, no retailer in 1992, no distributor, and no Valiant fans or anyone else anywhere have done anything wrong in this scenario except for the one guy with "bogus books". No vast conspiracy involving even two people is needed.
Thousands of counterfeit books? Or thousands of legit books that the guy shouldn't have had?
Either way, the guy had what could be described as "bogus books".
Which was it? No one has found a single copy of a counterfeit Valiant book 30 years later. "Bogus books"? Yes. Counterfeit? Not one has been found.

"...a crime was discovered related to early Valiant books, it was investigated, there was an arrest", and the end result 30 years later (as it was in 1992) is "there were no counterfeit books involved".

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Re: *Counterfeit Valiant Update- Midnight, On Earth w/ Jim Shooter Ep 89 - NEW EPISODE

Post by greg »

valiantdude wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 2:57:50 pm first of all, Birthday Cake Boy doesnt count.. at all. He wasnt there in 1991-1992 was he? All BCB is doing is parroting Fred.
This is all Jim Shooter, who I guess you guys think is worthless, but i seem to remember Greg saying differently on the podcast.
Like i said, he both, started, deferred to Fred, and brought more names and memories to beef up the counterfeit side.
Sorry if you cant see the obvious issues.
You don't like the word of the man who owned Valiant Comics for over a decade and worked with Fred Pierce every day. That sounds like your issue.
"Birthday Cake Boy" was the head of the whole company. You won't find anyone with better credentials who wasn't there in the 1990s.
So, you must be relying on the people who WERE there. Except, you keep ignoring JIM SHOOTER who said:
"In any case, if Fred says there weren't any counterfeit books, then I absolutely take his word for it."

... because you refuse to reach out to Fred Pierce. You don't trust Fred. You don't trust Jim.

You want to hear from Jon Hartz, who hasn't said anything to anyone about Valiant anywhere that can be found online in at least two decades.
Yeah, he's just waiting for you to call him. That's all you need. It will all be solved when Jon speaks up.
Except...

There are supposedly thousands of counterfeit Valiant books in circulation for 30 years, but no one can find even ONE of them.

You think I have "obvious issues".

Ugh.

(...and I'm supplying you with the online platform for this repeated nonsense.)

(...AND... I'm the bad guy for accurately saying it's a waste of everyone's time that should probably be deleted.)

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Re: *Counterfeit Valiant Update- Midnight, On Earth w/ Jim Shooter Ep 89 - NEW EPISODE

Post by valiantdude »

the official story has obvious issues

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Re: *Counterfeit Valiant Update- Midnight, On Earth w/ Jim Shooter Ep 89 - NEW EPISODE

Post by Chiclo »

valiantdude wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 4:15:19 pm the official story has obvious issues
What are those issues? greg has laid out, step by step, his version of what could have happened several times. He has been consistent with every recounting; his model fits the data we have, including Jim Shooter’s testimony; and I am having a hard time seeing any holes in greg’s story. What shortcomings are you seeing that I am not? Help me to help you, dude.

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Re: *Counterfeit Valiant Update- Midnight, On Earth w/ Jim Shooter Ep 89 - NEW EPISODE

Post by valiantdude »

to put a nail in the coffin in this thread..
Let's all agree to disagree for now.
we will reconvene when more sources come forward, or more concrete information is discovered.
until then...

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Re: *Counterfeit Valiant Update- Midnight, On Earth w/ Jim Shooter Ep 89 - NEW EPISODE

Post by JCP »

valiantdude wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 4:50:37 pm to put a nail in the coffin in this thread..
Let's all agree to disagree for now.
we will reconvene when more sources come forward, or more concrete information is discovered.
until then...
What’s the statute of limitations on this conspiracy theory?
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Re: *Counterfeit Valiant Update- Midnight, On Earth w/ Jim Shooter Ep 89 - NEW EPISODE

Post by ckb »

Chiclo wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 4:47:34 pm
valiantdude wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 4:15:19 pm the official story has obvious issues
What are those issues? greg has laid out, step by step, his version of what could have happened several times. He has been consistent with every recounting; his model fits the data we have, including Jim Shooter’s testimony; and I am having a hard time seeing any holes in greg’s story. What shortcomings are you seeing that I am not? Help me to help you, dude.
There could actually be a way the two stories cross - the books that were stolen were put aside for destruction because of the printing issue. Something happened on the way to the shredder...who's to say? Accident's happen, you know? The books fall into someone's truck, the "defect" of the missing red is not significant... Morally suspect employee is "well they were going to be destroyed anyway, who will miss them" and got greedy by bragging to retailers all the books he had. Just a thought.

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Re: *Counterfeit Valiant Update- Midnight, On Earth w/ Jim Shooter Ep 89 - NEW EPISODE

Post by Chiclo »

ckb wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 5:20:36 pm
Chiclo wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 4:47:34 pm
valiantdude wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 4:15:19 pm the official story has obvious issues
What are those issues? greg has laid out, step by step, his version of what could have happened several times. He has been consistent with every recounting; his model fits the data we have, including Jim Shooter’s testimony; and I am having a hard time seeing any holes in greg’s story. What shortcomings are you seeing that I am not? Help me to help you, dude.
There could actually be a way the two stories cross - the books that were stolen were put aside for destruction because of the printing issue. Something happened on the way to the shredder...who's to say? Accident's happen, you know? The books fall into someone's truck, the "defect" of the missing red is not significant... Morally suspect employee is "well they were going to be destroyed anyway, who will miss them" and got greedy by bragging to retailers all the books he had. Just a thought.
Still no holes.

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Re: *Counterfeit Valiant Update- Midnight, On Earth w/ Jim Shooter Ep 89 - NEW EPISODE

Post by lorddunlow »

SHOW US YOUR HOLES, GREG!

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Re: *Counterfeit Valiant Update- Midnight, On Earth w/ Jim Shooter Ep 89 - NEW EPISODE

Post by Chiclo »

lorddunlow wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 5:37:31 pm SHOW US YOUR HOLES, GREG!

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Well actually, the question put forth is for valiantdude to show us greg’s holes.

Because it’s that kind of party.

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Re: *Counterfeit Valiant Update- Midnight, On Earth w/ Jim Shooter Ep 89 - NEW EPISODE

Post by Blood of Heroes »

valiantdude wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 2:57:50 pm first of all, Birthday Cake Boy doesnt count.. at all. He wasnt there in 1991-1992 was he? All BCB is doing is parroting Fred.
This is all Jim Shooter, who I guess you guys think is worthless, but i seem to remember Greg saying differently on the podcast.
Like i said, he both, started, deferred to Fred, and brought more names and memories to beef up the counterfeit side.
Sorry if you cant see the obvious issues.
Show me on the spectrum where Dinesh touched you :lol:


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