COINS!

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Well....after avoiding the topic for a while (come on, who wants to read more of my drivel?) I decided to post about my first love....

I'll start with one of the best...a coin that, seriously, makes me want to cry....and with which you could buy the top 10 best Action 1s:

[Elveen]

Ok... tell me what that is.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Ok... tell me what that is.

The most famous coin in the world.

The fabled 1804 dollar, this one (the finest known) sold for $4.14 Million in 1999....which, of course, was before the coin boom of the early 21st century.

If sold today, the price could easily be $5.5-$6 million.

On the back covers of several 1961 DC comics, there's an ad to buy this coin for anywhere between $9,500-$11,500 or so....which, of course, was a ridiculously low offer, even in 1961. By 61, the coin was already worth $50,000+....

[superman-prime]

when i get the chance i have alot of old coins that have been passed around my family for 100 years or so ill scan them so you can take a look if thats cool

the oldest are from prussa and the holy roman empire no one has any idea what they are worth and i took them to a dealer and he said they were worthless when i know that silver quaters are simi rare
probably get it up next weekish

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

when i get the chance i have alot of old coins that have been passed around my family for 100 years or so ill scan them so you can take a look if thats cool

the oldest are from prussa and the holy roman empire no one has any idea what they are worth and i took them to a dealer and he said they were worthless when i know that silver quaters are simi rare
probably get it up next weekish

So long as they are after 1800, I can tell you exactly what they are, and how much they are "worth".

[Chiclo]

What makes this 1804 dollar so valuable?

I presume it's American and I don't see any proof marks.

[X-O HoboJoe]

What makes this 1804 dollar so valuable?

Coin nerds willing to pay too much.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

What makes this 1804 dollar so valuable?

I presume it's American and I don't see any proof marks.

What is a "proof mark"....?

(before you get too excited, I'm intimately aware of what "proof" is....I just want to know what you think a proof "mark" is. )

The 1804 dollar....I would guess it's American, too, since it has the words "United States of America" on the back.

In fact, I just did some major edits to the Wikipedia entry on "US dollar coin" entry.

The 1804 dollar started like this:

In 1834, President Jackson wanted to send some gifts to Asian rulers in exchange for favorable trade agreements. He ordered sets of coins minted that contained one of every coin the US made.

All the coins in the set were dated 1834...except for the $1 and $10.

Those hadn't been struck, on Jefferson's orders, since 1804.

However, what the mint officials in 1834 didn't realize was that, while the last dollars were struck in 1804, they were all DATED 1803, in accordance with the practice of using dies until they fell to pieces, because die steel was expensive.

So, someone (probably Mint Director Samuel Morse) ordered "restrikes" of the coins, dated 1804, to be made for the sets. What they didn't know, of course, is that they were creating a brand spankin' new coin that never existed before....

Thus the 1804 dollar was born. 8 examples of what are called "Class I" 1804 dollars are known, and they are the "originals." They are official US coins, struck legally by the US Mint, for legal purposes...they were just back dated 1804. Woulda been cool if they were dated 1834, because it wouldn't have mattered....no other dollar bearing a date after 1803 and before 1836 existed.

Then, in 1857-1860, mint officials clandestinely created MORE of these coins, and, though many were destroyed, 1 example of the Class II exists, and 6 examples of the Class III exist. Since the Class III are actual restrikes, and the Class I are originals, the Class Is always sell for more.

The $10 actually DID bear a date of 1804, and the difference between the originals and 1834 restrikes is in the crosslet "4" in the date.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

What makes this 1804 dollar so valuable?

I presume it's American and I don't see any proof marks.

It's so valuable because it's so famous. It's history is really quite fascinating, and exotic. One of the sets went to the King of Siam, and is said to have been given to Anna Leonowens ("The King & I") by the current king in the 1860's, and was passed on to her descendants before being sold in 1962. It was unknown to collectors before then.

It, along with the 1913 Liberty nickel, have gotten almost constant press, almost since the day they were both made, and have always commanded a very high premium.

Although there are certainly coins that are rarer than the 1804, none is as famous.

It's like Action #1....are there comics that are rarer than Action #1?

Of course.

Are those comics as valuable as Action #1?

Not in the slightest.

It's valuable because of what it is, and what it represents.

[wrunow]

Wow, great thread!

My grandfather owned a small pharmacy in the 50's and 60's and pretty much it was a one man show. Well, he saved every silver dollar he ever got and my mom has like 4 of those big cloth bank bags full of them in her safety deposit box.

I have looked at them and if I remember correctly most were from the early 1900's with a few late 1800's maybe. I have been waiting for my retirement to have time to properly go through them all, grade them (after learning how) and such. Of course that's probably gonna be another 20 or so years....

[Elveen]

when i get the chance i have alot of old coins that have been passed around my family for 100 years or so ill scan them so you can take a look if thats cool

the oldest are from prussa and the holy roman empire no one has any idea what they are worth and i took them to a dealer and he said they were worthless when i know that silver quaters are simi rare
probably get it up next weekish

Post the pics...... I wanna see ZWH do his thing.

[Chiclo]

What makes this 1804 dollar so valuable?

I presume it's American and I don't see any proof marks.

What is a "proof mark"....?

(before you get too excited, I'm intimately aware of what "proof" is....I just want to know what you think a proof "mark" is. )

Perhaps I am confusing it with another term.

I meant the D, P or SF mark that adorns modern coins to signify in which mint the coin was struck. Or other marks, like O or CC.

I went through a numismatist phase when I was a kid. Perhaps I am thinking of the term proof marks, which help tell histories of (mostly military) firearms.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

What makes this 1804 dollar so valuable?

I presume it's American and I don't see any proof marks.

What is a "proof mark"....?

(before you get too excited, I'm intimately aware of what "proof" is....I just want to know what you think a proof "mark" is. )

Perhaps I am confusing it with another term.

I meant the D, P or SF mark that adorns modern coins to signify in which mint the coin was struck. Or other marks, like O or CC.

I went through a numismatist phase when I was a kid. Perhaps I am thinking of the term proof marks, which help tell histories of (mostly military) firearms.

Ohhh...those are MINT marks, and they don't come into being until 1838.

There have been 8 mintmarks in the history of US coins:

None, P - Philadelphia 1792-present
O - New Orleans 1838-1909 (with small breaks)
D - Dahlonega, GA 1838-1861
C - Charlotte, NC 1838-1861
S - San Francisco 1854-present (with small breaks)
CC - Carson City, NV 1870-1893
D - Denver 1906-present
W - West Point, NY 1984-present

Fun!

[muzzsucker]

Wow great thread. Made me go out and read more about this coin! Do a thread on the 1913 Liberty nickel next...i have no idea what that is

[muzzsucker]

Is it easy to tell the difference between the class I and class II and III coins? Or is it something where a CGC type of the coin world would be needed?

[Chiclo]

Is it easy to tell the difference between the class I and class II and III coins? Or is it something where a CGC type of the coin world would be needed?

NGC

[Chiclo]

What makes this 1804 dollar so valuable?

I presume it's American and I don't see any proof marks.

What is a "proof mark"....?

(before you get too excited, I'm intimately aware of what "proof" is....I just want to know what you think a proof "mark" is. )

Perhaps I am confusing it with another term.

I meant the D, P or SF mark that adorns modern coins to signify in which mint the coin was struck. Or other marks, like O or CC.

I went through a numismatist phase when I was a kid. Perhaps I am thinking of the term proof marks, which help tell histories of (mostly military) firearms.

Ohhh...those are MINT marks, and they don't come into being until 1838.

There have been 8 mintmarks in the history of US coins:

None, P - Philadelphia 1792-present
O - New Orleans 1838-1909 (with small breaks)
D - Dahlonega, GA 1838-1861
C - Charlotte, NC 1838-1861
S - San Francisco 1854-present (with small breaks)
CC - Carson City, NV 1870-1893
D - Denver 1906-present
W - West Point, NY 1984-present

Fun!

There's a mint at West Point?

I tend to notice mint marks on my coins, and I don't ever remember seeing a W.

[xodacia81]

Yep. West Point is mostly for very high end Bullion type of coins.

[x-omatic]

Here is the only coin I kept from my collection that I sold in the 80's. It was pulled from one of the many bags of "un-searched" wheat cents I had bought as a kid in the 70's. I probably should have kept my 1909's as well.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Is it easy to tell the difference between the class I and class II and III coins? Or is it something where a CGC type of the coin world would be needed?

It's easy once you look at them for a bit. They're noticeable different, but you'd have to compare them side by side to tell...

The single Type II is struck over a Swiss shooting thaler of 1857! It resides in the Smithsonian....cool stuff!

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

What makes this 1804 dollar so valuable?

I presume it's American and I don't see any proof marks.

What is a "proof mark"....?

(before you get too excited, I'm intimately aware of what "proof" is....I just want to know what you think a proof "mark" is. )

Perhaps I am confusing it with another term.

I meant the D, P or SF mark that adorns modern coins to signify in which mint the coin was struck. Or other marks, like O or CC.

I went through a numismatist phase when I was a kid. Perhaps I am thinking of the term proof marks, which help tell histories of (mostly military) firearms.

Ohhh...those are MINT marks, and they don't come into being until 1838.

There have been 8 mintmarks in the history of US coins:

None, P - Philadelphia 1792-present
O - New Orleans 1838-1909 (with small breaks)
D - Dahlonega, GA 1838-1861
C - Charlotte, NC 1838-1861
S - San Francisco 1854-present (with small breaks)
CC - Carson City, NV 1870-1893
D - Denver 1906-present
W - West Point, NY 1984-present

Fun!

There's a mint at West Point?

I tend to notice mint marks on my coins, and I don't ever remember seeing a W.

There is indeedy! You won't have noticed a "W" mint mark, because the West Point mint does not make circulation coins.

Just commems, certain proofs, bullion coins, etc.

Here's an example:

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Here is the only coin I kept from my collection that I sold in the 80's. It was pulled from one of the many bags of "un-searched" wheat cents I had bought as a kid in the 70's. I probably should have kept my 1909's as well.

You were going to show me this on the last 3 times I was over to your place.

Show me the reverse, and I'll tell you what you have. I'd also like to see what's below the tail of the '9'...it looks like you have a Die Pair 1 or 3.

I have one just like it.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Wow great thread. Made me go out and read more about this coin! Do a thread on the 1913 Liberty nickel next...i have no idea what that is

Ahhh yes....I related this story just tonight, to another member of this illustrious board.....

So, in 1911, Treasury Secretary Franklin MacVeagh decided that, since the cent had been redesigned, and the entire gold issues had been redesigned, that it was time for the nickel, as well (the dime, quarter, half, and dollar would have to wait 4, 4, 4, and 9 more years, respectively.)

The Liberty Nickel, while not the most spectacular design in our history, was nonetheless a fairly decent one, and in service since 1883. However, the Treasury dept. commissioned a sculptor, James Earle Fraser, to design the new nickel, and the Buffalo Nickel was born.

1912 was the last year that the Liberty Nickel was supposed to be minted, and for all that most everybody knew, it was.

However......

A dealer named Samuel Brown started putting ads in the leading numismatic journals of the day during the summer of 1919, offering $500 for examples of a 1913 Liberty Head nickel...of course, everyone thought him nuts, but it caught the attention of famous dealer B. Max Mehl, who shortly thereafter began a lifelong campaign centered around the coin, offering $50 (a princely sum for a nickel in the 1920's, and especially the 1930's) for an example. I still have a 1933 buy catalog from Max Mehl, a collector's item in its own right, that I received from my grandmother; it features the famous ad on the back cover. Oh, the prices in that book...sigh....

Well, of course, people's curiosity was roused, but, also unknown at the time, it turns out that Brown owned the only 5 in existence. At the American Numismatic Association's 1920 convention, all 5 were displayed to the public for the very first time (which, perhaps not coincidentally, also meant that the statute of limitations for prosecuting the illegal manufacture of coins at the US mint....7 years....had expired), and the public was enthralled.

The 5 remained a set until the 1940's, when they were broken up and sold to individual collectors, including the eccentric King Farouk of Egypt, and, of course, Louis Eliasberg Sr.

In 1962, one of the nickels, owned by George Walton, seemed to have disappeared when Walton died in a car crash on his way to a convention to display his famous nickel. While the crash scattered several thousand dollars worth of coins over the road, the 1913 nickel was not to be found among them. Many thought the coin lost amidst the wreckage, never to be found again.

The Walton heirs, however, had a 1913 Liberty nickel in their possesion, and in the mid 60's, took it to Stack's (a well established NY auction house) which pronounced it an altered date fake.

In 2003, Bowers & Merena Galleries, another auction house, offered a $1,000,000 reward for information leading to the recovery of this coin. The Walton heirs, hearing of the reward, began correspondence with ANA Curator Lawrence Lee regarding an upcoming exhibit featuring the four remaining coins, and, even though the Walton specimen was thought to be an altered date, it would be interesting to include it in an exhibition, as George Walton was the last person known to have owned the real one.

The heirs brought the coin, and to the astonishment of everyone, the examined coin was found to be the genuine, long lost specimen! Clearly, George Walton didn't have the coin in his possession on the night of the crash after all, and the famous lost coin was rejoined, for the first time since 1920, at the 2003 ANA convention in Baltimore.

Just exactly how the coins were produced is a mystery, and no one has ever come forward to offer an explanation who was in a position to know with authority. The coins were clearly made from existing Liberty Head dies, with the "3" in the date clearly matching that of the previous issue, 1903 (and, in fact, all four "3" dates are nearly identical, indicating the use of the same punch in the master die.) The work was obviously done by mint employees; but just which employees, the coin world will probably never know.

Of the 5, two are in permanent museum collections (one at the Smithsonian, the other at the ANA museum in Denver) and the other three are in private hands. The last known sale was for the Olsen specimen (the only one ever handled by Max Mehl) for a reported $3 million in 2004.

In 1996, the 1913 Liberty Nickel became the first coin in history to sell for over $1Million.

Here's the finest of the 5:




The worst of the 5, the McDermott specimen, shows light wear, because the McDermott would keep it in his pocket with other change, and when he would go to coin shows in other cities, he would take it out at bars and loudly proclaim that he had a very valuable coin of which only 5 were known to anyone within hearing range! (How he wasn't robbed, I'll never know. )

[xodacia81]

I have a nice Colonial piece. I also have a Liberty 5-cent that I got for 8 yet is worth about 27, or was at last check. Numismatics=fun

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Here is the only coin I kept from my collection that I sold in the 80's. It was pulled from one of the many bags of "un-searched" wheat cents I had bought as a kid in the 70's. I probably should have kept my 1909's as well.

You were going to show me this on the last 3 times I was over to your place.

Show me the reverse, and I'll tell you what you have. I'd also like to see what's below the tail of the '9'...it looks like you have a Die Pair 1 or 3.

I have one just like it.

~ Ahem ~