Harbinger: Heavy politics in comic books.

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Harbinger: Heavy politics in comic books.

Post by jmatt »

Not a fan. You pick a side, you lose readers. I'm not crazy about the notion of supporting anti-capitalist pop culture.

Where would VEI be today without all those bad bad evil venture capitalists? Free enterprise has served them pretty well, I can't see why Dysart is allowed to *SQUEE* all over it. And the movies. Gonna be paid for with a government bailout fund?

Maybe we can have the government liquidate frivolous things like comic book companies to provide free Flonase to everyone.

:rant: :censored: :atomic:

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Re: Harbinger: Heavy politics in comic books.

Post by greg »

Seriously?

Capitalism in Harbinger's story means a corrupt god rules.

It's at least slightly different from the real world.

Anyone who charges $900 for a bottle of Flonase should meet Mr. Twist.

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Re: Harbinger: Heavy politics in comic books.

Post by CylonSteve »

jmatt wrote:Not a fan. You pick a side, you lose readers. I'm not crazy about the notion of supporting anti-capitalist pop culture.

Where would VEI be today without all those bad bad evil venture capitalists? Free enterprise has served them pretty well, I can't see why Dysart is allowed to *SQUEE* all over it. And the movies. Gonna be paid for with a government bailout fund?

Maybe we can have the government liquidate frivolous things like comic book companies to provide free Flonase to everyone.

:rant: :censored: :atomic:
I agree with you as a card carrying Libertarian, however Mr. Dysart has freedom of speech, and I did not see this issue as Anti-Capitalist at all lol. I does not suprise me that Kris living in a Liberal Dominant city like Pittsburgh would have those books. Her father could be a Conservative of sorts, he was a fan of Mr. Harada, and maybe she is rebelling against her parents values like most teenagers do.

Besides perhaps Kris's family have crummy insurance policy? I just didn't think that much into it. It is justone characters opinion after all they do not all agree with her lol.

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Re: Harbinger: Heavy politics in comic books.

Post by jmatt »

greg wrote:Seriously?...Anyone who charges $900 for a bottle of Flonase should meet Mr. Twist.
Yeah, seriously. Who charges $900 for a decongestant? No one. But it makes a great strawman.

C'mon, the book is crawling with proletariat fervor.

My house value went down and dad got laid off and now he's sick and we didn't buy health insurance and the Occupy Wall Street movement was a failure and people who put money in banks have no claim to that money and capitalism is a failure even though it's the only thing that lifted a billion starving Indians out of poverty and it's time for the little guy to lay claim to money they never earned and say, have you ever read Marx and boo hoo hoo.

Like the story, hate the politics. The thing is dripping in anti-capitalist agitprop

EDIT: Oh, and there's nothing corrupt about capitalism. But people expecting to receive stuff they did nothing to earn? Now that's corrupt.
Last edited by jmatt on Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:31:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Harbinger: Heavy politics in comic books.

Post by iwantvaliant »

Whereas, with each issue, I continue to think Harada is the good guy in this story. If you think the book is anti-capitilist (which I don't think it is) take comfort in the knowledge that Pete is a *SQUEE*.
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Re: Harbinger: Heavy politics in comic books.

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Re: Harbinger: Heavy politics in comic books.

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MarkRoseHFX wrote:I think i'm a Commie because I LOVED it.
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Re: Harbinger: Heavy politics in comic books.

Post by BugsySig »

I agree with CylonSteve, this happens to be Kris' point of view which, given her character's situation, makes sense. That just happens to be her motivation. Harada, on the other hand, uses capitalism in its purest form in order to carry out altruistic actions (at least in his mind). I suppose Pete would be considered a straight up anarchist...No trust, want or care for authority at all.

Meanwhile, Faith could probably care less about the economy as long as her wifi still works and the Hobbit is released on time, and when we meet Flamingo & Torque I highly doubt they will be politically motivatd at all.

I typically follow the old saying to stay away from religion and politics, but when one of your pre established main characters is a billionaire industrialist who manipulates the markets to produce his vision of the world, how can those opposing him not have an alternate view?

I am sure Dysarts personal leanings affect how he writes, but if editorial curbed that then the books would be no better than the drivel Marvel and DC are producing.
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Re: Harbinger: Heavy politics in comic books.

Post by Chiclo »

I don't think Dysart is pushing the anti-capitalism in his writing. It is part of the character of Kris, as much as all the metal piercings on her face. Youth culture tends to be naively and misguidedly left-leaning and that youth culture is reflected in the youthful characters of Harbinger.

I am normally pretty sensitive to when writers are pushing anti-capitalist or left-leaning views. I don't see it happening here. A&A moreso than here and that really was only in the first issue.

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Re: Harbinger: Heavy politics in comic books.

Post by BugsySig »

Chiclo wrote:I don't think Dysart is pushing the anti-capitalism in his writing. It is part of the character of Kris, as much as all the metal piercings on her face. Youth culture tends to be naively and misguidedly left-leaning and that youth culture is reflected in the youthful characters of Harbinger.

I am normally pretty sensitive to when writers are pushing anti-capitalist or left-leaning views. I don't see it happening here. A&A moreso than here and that really was only in the first issue.
And if Chiclo isn't offended... :lol:
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Re: Harbinger: Heavy politics in comic books.

Post by CylonSteve »

BugsySig wrote:I agree with CylonSteve, this happens to be Kris' point of view which, given her character's situation, makes sense. That just happens to be her motivation. Harada, on the other hand, uses capitalism in its purest form in order to carry out altruistic actions (at least in his mind). I suppose Pete would be considered a straight up anarchist...No trust, want or care for authority at all.

Meanwhile, Faith could probably care less about the economy as long as her wifi still works and the Hobbit is released on time, and when we meet Flamingo & Torque I highly doubt they will be politically motivatd at all.

I typically follow the old saying to stay away from religion and politics, but when one of your pre established main characters is a billionaire industrialist who manipulates the markets to produce his vision of the world, how can those opposing him not have an alternate view?

I am sure Dysarts personal leanings affect how he writes, but if editorial curbed that then the books would be no better than the drivel Marvel and DC are producing.
I agree with yous BugsySig, and what I highlighted in your post Ayn Rand would not be amused. I am calling it some one on Pete's Squad will be an Objectivist. Not really but hey wouldn't surprise me.
jmatt wrote:
greg wrote:Seriously?...Anyone who charges $900 for a bottle of Flonase should meet Mr. Twist.
Yeah, seriously. Who charges $900 for a decongestant? No one. But it makes a great strawman.

C'mon, the book is crawling with proletariat fervor.

My house value went down and dad got laid off and now he's sick and we didn't buy health insurance and the Occupy Wall Street movement was a failure and people who put money in banks have no claim to that money and capitalism is a failure even though it's the only thing that lifted a billion starving Indians out of poverty and it's time for the little guy to lay claim to money they never earned and say, have you ever read Marx and boo hoo hoo.

Like the story, hate the politics. The thing is dripping in anti-capitalist agitprop
It was told in Kris's point of view, so I guess maybe a page or two. Again would it really surprise you she would have such views?

Basically myself as a Guy whom reads F.A. Hayek, and Ludwig Von Mises I did not see this as Anti-Capitalist.

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Re: Harbinger: Heavy politics in comic books.

Post by jmatt »

BugsySig wrote:this happens to be Kris' point of view
Not coincidentally, it happens to be Dysart's point of view. And he goes very far out of his way to bang the reader over the head with it.

Nobody casually name drops "Capitalism: A Structural Genocide" into a comic book.

Like when Kris whines about her "devalued house". Yes, Kris, prices go up and down with market forces. If they only went up you'd be whining about how the working man can't afford to put a roof over his head.

The drivel is in like every third panel.

And speaking of over priced goods, I've been waiting for a good moment to whine a little myself:

$4 for a 22-page comic is outrageous. Where are they putting all this filthy lucre? Not in banks I hope. Social justice demands that the janitor be compensated for his toil on an equal basis with famous comic book authors. Forward! Comic book readers of the world, Unite!

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Re: Harbinger: Heavy politics in comic books.

Post by Donovan »

Calling this book anti-capitalist is like calling Iron Maiden a bunch of satanists. Or that every X-Men comic that features Nightcrawler and his religion is a pro-Catholic comic.

Characters need back stories. This is Kris' story. At no point does it say "Occupy good! Capitalism bad". I think you're reading too much into it.

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Re: Harbinger: Heavy politics in comic books.

Post by 400yrs »

Chiclo wrote:I don't think Dysart is pushing the anti-capitalism in his writing. It is part of the character of Kris, as much as all the metal piercings on her face. Youth culture tends to be naively and misguidedly left-leaning and that youth culture is reflected in the youthful characters of Harbinger.

I am normally pretty sensitive to when writers are pushing anti-capitalist or left-leaning views. I don't see it happening here. A&A moreso than here and that really was only in the first issue.

Agree 100%. Chiclo pretty much just nailed all my thoughts regarding politics in Harbinger, A&A and comics in general.

I don't have a problem with it in Harbinger because this story was told through the eyes of Kris. In fact, I liked it. A&A #1 was a different situation.

There's a difference between telling a character's point of view and a writer pushing things on readers. I have no problems with what Dysart has done thus far as it has helped form the character and the story.
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Re: Harbinger: Heavy politics in comic books.

Post by MarkRoseHFX »

jmatt wrote: Not coincidentally, it happens to be Dysart's point of view. And he goes very far out of his way to bang the reader over the head with it.
Would you have the same issues if you didn't know Dysart's political beliefs?

Or what if it was presenting a more conservative right wing point of view?

jmatt wrote: And speaking of over priced goods, I've been waiting for a good moment to whine a little myself:

$4 for a 22-page comic is outrageous. Where are they putting all this filthy lucre? Not in banks I hope. Social justice demands that the janitor be compensated for his toil on an equal basis with famous comic book authors. Forward! Comic book readers of the world, Unite!
in YOUR opinion. Well worth it to me. If you don't like it or the price then don't buy it. Judging by the response to Harby so far you might be on your own.
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Re: Harbinger: Heavy politics in comic books.

Post by hawkeyeps »

MarkRoseHFX wrote:I think i'm a Commie because I LOVED it.
Yeah well we're Canadian, just ask us how much we hate our "socialized medicine"......crickets :P

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Re: Harbinger: Heavy politics in comic books.

Post by jmatt »

MarkRoseHFX wrote:Would you have the same issues if you didn't know Dysart's political beliefs?

Or what if it was presenting a more conservative right wing point of view?
Yes, actually. Comic books are not the place to sermonize about politics. It turns off readers.

jmatt wrote:in YOUR opinion.
Yes, this is my opinion. There are no facts concerning prices, a thing is worth what someone thinks it is worth.

I love the Valiant line. I even liked this story. I don't like being preached to in comic books. $4 for a comic book is too much money. These are my opinions.

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Re: Harbinger: Heavy politics in comic books.

Post by Donovan »

Is he sermonizing about politics though? I'm not seeing it...

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Re: Harbinger: Heavy politics in comic books.

Post by MarkRoseHFX »

jmatt wrote: Yes, actually. Comic books are not the place to sermonize about politics. It turns off readers.
I agree that it definitely would. Still disagree that Harbinger is doing that. but yeah of course you are entitled to your opinion.
jmatt wrote: Yes, this is my opinion. There are no facts concerning prices, a thing is worth what someone thinks it is worth.

I love the Valiant line. I even liked this story. I don't like being preached to in comic books. $4 for a comic book is too much money. These are my opinions.
Again another fair opinion. I just wanted to point out that if you think if you are going to start some sort of revolt against the pricing you might be on your own. (and yes I realize it was mostly tongue in cheek :) )

When it comes to the pricing you also have to keep in mind that Valiant isn't Marvel or DC they aren't printing NEARLY as many books and probably have to pay WAY more than they do. Therefore the cost has to be higher. I'll pay extra money for now for Valiant to make sure they stay in business. If you think they are getting mega rich off of these I think you're sadly mistaken.
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Re: Harbinger: Heavy politics in comic books.

Post by MarkRoseHFX »

hawkeyeps wrote: Yeah well we're Canadian, just ask us how much we hate our "socialized medicine"......crickets :P
Yeah the "socialized" medicine has been SO terrible to me. Last year I got diagnosed with a rare blood disease SUPER fast...faster than almost every other patient i've talked to online and managed to avoid many complications because of it. Most of the other people had to have kidney transplants at the very least. And then I got about 1.2 million dollars worth of treatment. THEN I ended up with a tumor on my right calf which also was not serious because of super quick diagnosis. What's cool about that one is I have a question mark shaped scar on my calf...my RIDDLER scar! :thumb:
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Re: Harbinger: Heavy politics in comic books.

Post by CylonSteve »

jmatt wrote:
Not coincidentally, it happens to be Dysart's point of view. And he goes very far out of his way to bang the reader over the head with it.

Nobody casually name drops "Capitalism: A Structural Genocide" into a comic book.

Like when Kris whines about her "devalued house". Yes, Kris, prices go up and down with market forces. If they only went up you'd be whining about how the working man can't afford to put a roof over his head.

The drivel is in like every third panel.

And speaking of over priced goods, I've been waiting for a good moment to whine a little myself:

$4 for a 22-page comic is outrageous. Where are they putting all this filthy lucre? Not in banks I hope. Social justice demands that the janitor be compensated for his toil on an equal basis with famous comic book authors. Forward! Comic book readers of the world, Unite!
Well Capitalism: A Structural Genocide is an actual book:
http://www.amazon.com/Capitalism-Struct ... l+Genocide" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Noam Chomsky is pretty Liberal too. I have no idea why Dysart's political preference is, nor do I care. I am just enjoying the book, I really think Kris was extremely developed compared to the original universe. Making Comics contemporary is a good thing. Like Marvel's Civil War a few years back was debating the Patriot Act, and it shared both views.

But I will be completely honest I really don't like the extreme polarization today in politics. I'm alright with differing opinions; indeed I welcome them. At least the sane and scientific ones. But hatred for someone because they have an opposing opinion is just plain stupid. So here's the thing, think as you please on issues, but for goodness sakes, quit thinking that anyone who disagrees with you is stupid, criminal or evil.

I hope you do not take personal offense to this. I am sure you are a good guy.

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Re: Harbinger: Heavy politics in comic books.

Post by jmatt »

CylonSteve wrote: But hatred for someone because they have an opposing opinion is just plain stupid. So here's the thing, think as you please on issues, but for goodness sakes, quit thinking that anyone who disagrees with you is stupid, criminal or evil.
Um, where have a I demonstrated hatred? And I'll wait patiently here while you dig up my posts where I called anyone who disagrees with me stupid, criminal or evil.

See? This is why politics don't belong in comic books. And yes, I am a great guy. :thumb:

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Re: Harbinger: Heavy politics in comic books.

Post by MarkRoseHFX »

jmatt wrote: Um, where have a I demonstrated hatred? And I'll wait patiently here while you dig up my posts where I called anyone who disagrees with me stupid, criminal or evil.

See? This is why politics don't belong in comic books. And yes, I am a great guy. :thumb:
:lol: Yeah gotta agree here. I don't see anything wrong with anything you've said I just don't agree with some of it. And I still think you seem like a pretty good person :thumb:
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Re: Harbinger: Heavy politics in comic books.

Post by CylonSteve »

jmatt wrote:
CylonSteve wrote: But hatred for someone because they have an opposing opinion is just plain stupid. So here's the thing, think as you please on issues, but for goodness sakes, quit thinking that anyone who disagrees with you is stupid, criminal or evil.
Um, where have a I demonstrated hatred? And I'll wait patiently here while you dig up my posts where I called anyone who disagrees with me stupid, criminal or evil.

See? This is why politics don't belong in comic books. And yes, I am a great guy. :thumb:
Wasn't necessarily talking 'bout you, just the extreme political discourse in politics is not accomplishing anything nation wide. Just saying, this I did not mean it to be an attack in all honesty just food for thought.

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Re: Harbinger: Heavy politics in comic books.

Post by jmatt »

CylonSteve wrote:Wasn't necessarily talking 'bout you, just the extreme political discourse in politics is not accomplishing anything nation wide. Just saying, this I did not mean it to be an attack in all honesty just food for thought.
I disagree about the value of people strenuously arguing their position but fair enough.

And guys, I really love the story and characters so far. Not crazy about the subtext but I can live with it. I was just waiting for Dysart's other shoe to drop and when it did, I was disappointed.


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