HARBINGER #7 Discussion

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Re: HARBINGER #7 Discussion

Post by MarkRoseHFX »

cavemold wrote:Tell me :!:
wait let's try this again edit

ok so a female has two holes right? that's biology...

the two guys come along....
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Re: HARBINGER #7 Discussion

Post by Dr. Solar »

Today, you are an e-man.
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Re: HARBINGER #7 Discussion

Post by hawkeyeps »

facepalm

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Re: HARBINGER #7 Discussion

Post by ShadowTuga »

Well, when a couple of boys and a girl fall in love...
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Re: HARBINGER #7 Discussion

Post by Dr. Solar »

First issue discussion thread to make it to oblivion?

:hope:
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Re: HARBINGER #7 Discussion

Post by nonplayer »

Dr. Solar wrote:You've got to make your own decisions, of course.

They've always said that Harbinger would be a fairly edgy book, and take some risks.

I thought this was a very honest story about a girl that had exploited herself, and allowed herself to be exploited. It deals with real stuff in a serious way.

If I had a 14 year old child, I would rather they read Harby #7 than Voodoo #1, which I immediately was reminded of. Voodoo was probably "more appropriate" in some ways, even though it was really just a thin excuse to have a cheesecake book. This issue had a lot of sexual stuff, but it didn't exploit it for titillation, it showed the very real ways that those things effect people.
Smart well written responce.
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Re: HARBINGER #7 Discussion

Post by nonplayer »

tchalla8 wrote:
Chiclo wrote:
cavemold wrote:No, im saying it wont be a shock to them , kids are really smart and they know the differences at the age of 14. Weather not striping is wrong or not is up in the air.
This is probably the post where the thread is going to go way off-topic BUT -

The purse is full but the eyes are empty. Looks like freedom but feels like death, it's something inbetween I guess.

If I had a child of such an age, I would be concerned about more than just shocking them. This book is definitely too racy for a child of 14, male or female. I would not give it to a 17 year old myself but I would not object if they got it from other source. Particularly were this a relative of mine, I would rather he or she read this where it highlights how miserable Charlene is than see some rap video where it glorifies some fellow with a rakishly askew hat "making it rain up in hurr" on some poor girls.
I'm just not looking forward to telling my son "sorry, not this time". Ah, well...
Its a good opertunities to teach him right and wrong read it with him and ask him haw he feels about it you may be surprised
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Re: HARBINGER #7 Discussion

Post by nonplayer »

Amazing book. :-) interesting thread too :-D
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Re: HARBINGER #7 Discussion

Post by KXXX »

cavemold wrote:Tell me :!:
I think it's safe to assume mentioning the Angry Pirate will also get you all flustered...

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Re: HARBINGER #7 Discussion

Post by Tim »

cavemold wrote:
KXXX wrote:
tchalla8 wrote:OK, while I thought from a craft standpoint this book was excellent, I gotta ask.....what happened to Valiant making these books teen friendly? From the very beginning they indicated their product would be suitable for ages 14 and up. Joshua Dysart even said as much in early interviews. But after reading this issue....there's no way this could be considered appropriate for a teen. At least not mine anyway. Too much suggestive sexuality and inappropriate material. My son is going to be extremely disappointed because he's been on the Valiant wagon big time, and Harbinger is his favorite, but they've been pushing the envelope for a while now, and this issue sort of crossed a line I'm not comfortable with. I'm not trying to get rid of Flamingo's backstory. I just think there has to be a more subtle way of portraying it without going into territory like threesomes and amateur sex videos.

I would like to ask Dinesh or Josh if they would feel comfortable handing this to a 14 year old.

Feel free to disagree, but I'd love to hear some thoughts from everyone on this....
Yeah, nothing worse than having to explain to a kid what a DP is... facepalm
DP? :?
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Re: HARBINGER #7 Discussion

Post by SJS4 »

Wow what a great issue. Probably one of my favorite Harbinger issues to date. I love the way they really flesh out Flamingo. On one hand I feel sad for her (because of what she has done to herself and allowed others to do for her), but also happy for her because I think this issue represents a turning point for her. I am *hoping* that what she did to her boyfriend doesn't become the norm though. I am hoping Faith's influence/friendship can help Flamingo cope with what she has done and move on. Based on what we have seen so far, I am not seeing much help coming from Kris. :D

Regarding the maturity level...these themes are definitely more suited to a mature audience. The series has included drug addiction, violence, and bullying. I don't think the sexual implications in this issue were any more "mature" than other issues, I think its just the culture (in the US especially) that its okay to show kids unlimited violence, drugs, etc...but lets pretend they don't know about sex.

For me personally, I wouldn't be comfortable showing this comic to a niece/nephew (I don't have kids myself) that is ~10 years old, but I wouldn't have any problem showing it to a 14 year old.
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Re: HARBINGER #7 Discussion

Post by Chiclo »

I don't assume 14 year olds don't know about the rough sexuality shown in this book. I remember what it was to be 14, sitting around the lunch table and having my friends talk about the grossest acts they have heard of. Knowing that these things are out there is wholly separate from understanding these things in the larger context of life. I don't think an average 14 year old is mature enough to encounter that kind of sexuality in literature and be able to deal with the literature as a whole without fixating on the more sexual aspects out of context.

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Re: HARBINGER #7 Discussion

Post by KXXX »

Tim wrote:
cavemold wrote:
KXXX wrote:
tchalla8 wrote:OK, while I thought from a craft standpoint this book was excellent, I gotta ask.....what happened to Valiant making these books teen friendly? From the very beginning they indicated their product would be suitable for ages 14 and up. Joshua Dysart even said as much in early interviews. But after reading this issue....there's no way this could be considered appropriate for a teen. At least not mine anyway. Too much suggestive sexuality and inappropriate material. My son is going to be extremely disappointed because he's been on the Valiant wagon big time, and Harbinger is his favorite, but they've been pushing the envelope for a while now, and this issue sort of crossed a line I'm not comfortable with. I'm not trying to get rid of Flamingo's backstory. I just think there has to be a more subtle way of portraying it without going into territory like threesomes and amateur sex videos.

I would like to ask Dinesh or Josh if they would feel comfortable handing this to a 14 year old.

Feel free to disagree, but I'd love to hear some thoughts from everyone on this....
Yeah, nothing worse than having to explain to a kid what a DP is... facepalm
DP? :?
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A solid, educated guess, Tim.

However...

DP, as commonly abbreviated in the adult industry, stands for 'Double Penetration.'

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Re: HARBINGER #7 Discussion

Post by pixierosa »

How about we drop the DP and focus on the team's new dynamic or Flamingo's power? I think it's interesting that she was always fascinated with flame and was a firestarter. Don't remember if it was in this series or the original, but didn't Faith talk about how she used to have flying dreams? It's a nice touch that the Harbingers have a heightened awareness of their abilities even when they're not activated.

Can't wait to learn more about the earlier Harbinger War.
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Re: HARBINGER #7 Discussion

Post by BugsySig »

Chiclo wrote:I don't assume 14 year olds don't know about the rough sexuality shown in this book. I remember what it was to be 14, sitting around the lunch table and having my friends talk about the grossest acts they have heard of. Knowing that these things are out there is wholly separate from understanding these things in the larger context of life. I don't think an average 14 year old is mature enough to encounter that kind of sexuality in literature and be able to deal with the literature as a whole without fixating on the more sexual aspects out of context.
There you go making sense again...

I believe you guys discussed this with Warren on the last OTV podcast regarding the appropriateness for children/young teens. (Specifically the violence in BS and the drug use/possible rape in Harby). I forget his exact response, but it was something along the lines of:

Valiant is letting the writers write the stories and the illustrators illustrate the stories organically as they develop. That has resulted in perhaps some more mature material than originally concieved of for the company, but it is what it is. Would he give it to his kids/grand kids? Probably not, but that's your decision as a parent. But if you are saying they are at the level of a "mature readers' book or MAX, then no he doesn't think it is at that level.
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Re: HARBINGER #7 Discussion

Post by KXXX »

pixierosa wrote:How about we drop the DP and focus on the team's new dynamic or Flamingo's power? I think it's interesting that she was always fascinated with flame and was a firestarter. Don't remember if it was in this series or the original, but didn't Faith talk about how she used to have flying dreams? It's a nice touch that the Harbingers have a heightened awareness of their abilities even when they're not activated.

Can't wait to learn more about the earlier Harbinger War.
Definitely in the older book, bad memory on the newer one.

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Re: HARBINGER #7 Discussion

Post by grendeljd »

Chiclo wrote:I don't assume 14 year olds don't know about the rough sexuality shown in this book. I remember what it was to be 14, sitting around the lunch table and having my friends talk about the grossest acts they have heard of. Knowing that these things are out there is wholly separate from understanding these things in the larger context of life. I don't think an average 14 year old is mature enough to encounter that kind of sexuality in literature and be able to deal with the literature as a whole without fixating on the more sexual aspects out of context.
I agree with what you're saying Chiclo, but I do think we shouldn't underestimate the power of influence a good parent providing intelligent guidance can have... I don't have any kids of my own, so I can't speak from that experience [feel free to ignore me at this point], but what I've observed from my own life, family, and other peoples examples is that 'kids' [especially adolescents] respond well to being treated like mature people, especially when dealing with subjects that may actually be a little beyond them yet, as you've described. When you give them advice from this perspective, they tend to listen and take it to heart more readily. Respect the fact that they can probably handle more than we, as adults, think they can. I read somewhere a long time ago that once teens go through puberty & physically mature, their minds are physically just as developed as an adult of 20/30/40/50+ years. All they lack is the experience to inform their choices, and only suffer from the more lasting impressions that any 'new' experiences have on us for the first time.

My own father let me watch more mature movies when I was growing up [to a point - I'll never forget the time he & a friend sat down to watch 9 1/2 Weeks and told me I had to go do something else - he apologized, but said I just couldn't see that one, lol] and didn't make a big deal out of it so that I wouldn't. He had tons of literature lying around the house and I was reading stuff that gets taught in high school & college/university when I was 8-10 because I just wanted to read it. I didn't understand everything in those books by any stretch, but I learned a lot about humanity early on from reading a lot of that stuff.

When I was 8-ish, he sat me down after I got to meet some of his brothers for the first time, and told me that alcoholism runs in the family. I didn't entirely understand it at the time but that left a lasting impression on me and as I grew up I decided not to be a heavy drinker as a result [well, mostly, lol!]. When I was 12, I got the 'you know God's not real' speech from him... that was a curveball I wasn't expecting, but I'm not an atheist because of it. When I was 18, he took me to a " piano recital " where he knew the people who worked & "danced" there, and got me drinks, just to teach me that it wasn't anything to get enamoured with either before I started going out on my own and making an *SQUEE* of myself or making dumb decisions. That one worked well, I have never had any desire to frequent places like that - I saw the reality that all of those people working there are just struggling & trying to make a living in their own way like anybody else.

This is probably painting a bad picture of my dad as a parent for some of you guys [its not the case], but what I'm getting at is that I turned out ok, and I am glad I had those experiences to rely on. He trusted me to deal with the things he was showing me. I don't think everybody should grow up the way I did [and I doubt I would do things to that extreme with my own kids], but ultimately I believe sheltering your kid from the world is far worse than taking the time to teach them about it.

I think Harbinger 7 was written in a manner that it could be used as a tool in a parents hand to teach a teen about a slice of life experience.

This post is also in no way an attempt to disrespect anybody else's opinions expressed on what they choose to do with their own children.
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Re: HARBINGER #7 Discussion

Post by KXXX »

On this whole 'appropriate or not' debate... It's ultimately up to the parents. I commend Tchalla for exercising discretion as a parent. As for the age of 14... I was watching R-rated movies before that point. Not all or any R-rated movies, but such classics as Robocop (now my absolute favorite movie of all time) stand out. Lots of heavy violence and some sexual stuff in that flick. My old man thought it wasn't too much for me to handle and he was probably right. The important thing about is was that he watched it with me. I wasn't afraid to ask questions and he wasn't afraid to answer. I feel like that made a huge difference.

As for comic books and the age of 14, well... I had a job when I was 14. I could buy R-rated movies and 'M' rated video games all day, because that was before retailers really enforced those ratings systems. I don't know how the 'rating system' in comics works, but I can't imagine retailers are making a big deal out of it. I'm sure any 14 year-old kid could walk into a shop and pick up one of these books without much of a fuss.

As liberal as I think I am, I actually have to say I don't like that idea in this case or in the case of Bloodshot. The gore in Bloodshot is on par with R-rated movies as far as I'm concerned. The sexual elements in this book would not fly in a PG-13 movie.

It's no one else's responsibility to protect kids but their parents, however I have no problem with retailers exercising discretion. The problem here is that there doesn't seem to be an actual standard for rating. I may be mistaken there, but based on other rating systems these books push past the 'T for Teen/PG-13' level at points.

That being said, there's also plenty of other places where kids can see stuff racier than that level. Just as one example, anyone can pop onto Youtube and watch the video for Lady Gaga's 'Alejandro.' While I LOVE how far that video pushes in so many unconventional directions, I also wonder at how many kids can just pop on and see that. It's a weird dichotomy for me... as a grown man, it's art. As something my girlfriend's 9 year-old could watch it's *SQUEE* filth. We do a pretty good job of keeping him safe while not smothering him and I'm glad to see other people on this board are actively raising their kids. Hats off :thumb:

/End :rant:

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Re: HARBINGER #7 Discussion

Post by PSB »

I'm certainly going to be in the minority here (and keep in mind that this has been my favorite Valiant title so far), but I felt a little let down by this issue. The Kris centric issue was sooooooo good, that I guess that this one would have a lot to live up to. I love Kitson's art and would have preferred a full issue of it, so the bouncing between him and Evans was a little jarring. Personally, I think Flamingo's backstory came off a little cliche in a sort of Lifetime movie sort of way. However, I think she will add an interesting dynamic to the group.

Just my personal opinion and I'm totally not discounting anyone else's appreciation of the issue.

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Re: HARBINGER #7 Discussion

Post by depluto »

Great posts ... it's impossibe to view these books with a unified perspective because we all experience things differently. Conversation is always helpful.

As a father of a 14-year-old boy, I can tell you that there are landmines everywhere. I don't keep him on a leash but there are points where I have to trust his judgement and then just steer him away from things he is really not ready for. It's the toughest thing in the world to manage. He hasn't been reading the Harbinger books but that's mainly because he has been busy with other stuff.

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Re: HARBINGER #7 Discussion

Post by MarkRoseHFX »

I really think this all depends on the kid. And of course the cultural sensitivities of the parents, etc. I tend to be more worried about children being exposed to violence than sexuality. But for both i'm more concerned about the context and the actual message being sent. I feel this issue of Harbinger actually sends a positive message. Flamingo is going over past mistakes and it's explained quite clearly. I think a lot of 14 year olds would understand that. But that's ME. I totally respect the opinions of those that feel otherwise.

I said earlier that i'd let my 14 year old niece read this. Not being biased just because it's my niece but she's one of those kids that is years beyond her age in her understanding of this sort of thing. We have the sort of relationship that she feels free to ask me about anything and I always give her a non condescending honest answer. So she tends to ask me things that she's afraid to ask her parents or teachers. Therefore I know for certain that she can understand these things. Do I believe every 14 year old could? absolutely not. I don't think every ADULT can either :lol:
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Re: HARBINGER #7 Discussion

Post by Elveen »

This is a cool thread.

Now the book,

I have been keeping most of my thoughts on these books to the podcast, but I will interject the following:

-Harby IS the best book of the line and quickly moving it's way up towards the desert island list. :o If Josh does any kind of lengthy run on this book this will become a classic.

-Josh is mastering (already the master?) the perfect mix of plot/drama/emotion/character development in a book. I love how he hits you in the face with the subtlety of it all. This story was so engrossing, from moment 1 until the creepy smile at the end.

-I have talked to Josh and Dino about the "ratings" of the books. I also just brought it up to Warren. I do not think it is a "R" rating, but I will concur with the VEI dudes, it is a strong PG-13. I DO agree with Doc, I thought the "skin" was for story not show. It was needed for the character and the story. Was it too much? I would not give it to my sophies (sophomores) to read, but my Juniors (by a student to student basis) maybe, and Seniors, sure.

-Right now (in her mind) 'Mingo's power is her sexuality.... it will be interesting to see Josh take her through the change to her power being something else entirely.

-the most important part of the book IS the phone call! It's like in 1 scene Josh drops a BOMBSHELL, and then acts like it is a feather. GREAT!

-When Toyo ripped the PRS attack team apart...... :o

-Toyo knows who the "dangerous" one of the "harby kids" is..... it's not Pete!


Outstanding book!

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Re: HARBINGER #7 Discussion

Post by BugsySig »

Elveen wrote:This is a cool thread.

Now the book,

I have been keeping most of my thoughts on these books to the podcast, but I will interject the following:

-Harby IS the best book of the line and quickly moving it's way up towards the desert island list. :o If Josh does any kind of lengthy run on this book this will become a classic.

-Josh is mastering (already the master?) the perfect mix of plot/drama/emotion/character development in a book. I love how he hits you in the face with the subtlety of it all. This story was so engrossing, from moment 1 until the creepy smile at the end.

-I have talked to Josh and Dino about the "ratings" of the books. I also just brought it up to Warren. I do not think it is a "R" rating, but I will concur with the VEI dudes, it is a strong PG-13. I DO agree with Doc, I thought the "skin" was for story not show. It was needed for the character and the story. Was it too much? I would not give it to my sophies (sophomores) to read, but my Juniors (by a student to student basis) maybe, and Seniors, sure.

-Right now (in her mind) 'Mingo's power is her sexuality.... it will be interesting to see Josh take her through the change to her power being something else entirely.

-the most important part of the book IS the phone call! It's like in 1 scene Josh drops a BOMBSHELL, and then acts like it is a feather. GREAT!

-When Toyo ripped the PRS attack team apart...... :o

-Toyo knows who the "dangerous" one of the "harby kids" is..... it's not Pete!


Outstanding book!
Might I ask what you'd bring on said deserted island? I know what I'd say, but I'm interested in your thoughts.
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Re: HARBINGER #7 Discussion

Post by Elveen »

BugsySig wrote:
Elveen wrote:This is a cool thread.

Now the book,

I have been keeping most of my thoughts on these books to the podcast, but I will interject the following:

-Harby IS the best book of the line and quickly moving it's way up towards the desert island list. :o If Josh does any kind of lengthy run on this book this will become a classic.

-Josh is mastering (already the master?) the perfect mix of plot/drama/emotion/character development in a book. I love how he hits you in the face with the subtlety of it all. This story was so engrossing, from moment 1 until the creepy smile at the end.

-I have talked to Josh and Dino about the "ratings" of the books. I also just brought it up to Warren. I do not think it is a "R" rating, but I will concur with the VEI dudes, it is a strong PG-13. I DO agree with Doc, I thought the "skin" was for story not show. It was needed for the character and the story. Was it too much? I would not give it to my sophies (sophomores) to read, but my Juniors (by a student to student basis) maybe, and Seniors, sure.

-Right now (in her mind) 'Mingo's power is her sexuality.... it will be interesting to see Josh take her through the change to her power being something else entirely.

-the most important part of the book IS the phone call! It's like in 1 scene Josh drops a BOMBSHELL, and then acts like it is a feather. GREAT!

-When Toyo ripped the PRS attack team apart...... :o

-Toyo knows who the "dangerous" one of the "harby kids" is..... it's not Pete!


Outstanding book!
Might I ask what you'd bring on said deserted island? I know what I'd say, but I'm interested in your thoughts.
We did a podcast about it. You can listen to it here: http://onlythevaliant.com/episodes/62/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But the quick answer is:
#1 Fables
#2 Sandman
#3 Conan Dark Horse.

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MarkRoseHFX
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Re: HARBINGER #7 Discussion

Post by MarkRoseHFX »

That desert island ep is really good if you haven't heard it you should totally check it out
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