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 Post subject: Harbinger Wars II #4
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 6:20:43 am 
You gotta have Faith!
You gotta have Faith!
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Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:58:17 pm
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Location: The Faraway
Valiant fan since: Bloodshot #1 (2012)
Favorite character: Ninjak/Woody
Favorite title: Bloodshot/Ninjak
Favorite writer: Josh Dysart
Favorite artist: Clayton Crain
And with this issue I’m going to kiss anything Valiant publish goodbye - that is, anything set post this gargabe and completely mischaracterised joke of an in-continuity event.

Who were these shell characters? They looked like Ninjak, Bloodshot, Charlie Palmer, XO, but they sure as hell didn’t seem anything like the characters I’ve grown to enjoy reading since 2012.

To be honest, post DMG-takeover-Valiant, as a company would have been better off letting the current slate of titles finish and then hit the reset button on the universe and begin everything anew.

Harbinger Wars II hasn’t worked. I doubt it brought in new fans and it has alienated the faithful (in my opinion).

Oh and before I end my rant, what the hell is with Faith saying they should start a school for the ‘gifted’ ? Ever heard of the X-Men Valiant editors? What the actual F is going on?

I want my money back. Note - due to my LCS being small, they don’t order many floppies for the shelf so I had to pay for my monthlies which are ordered 3 months in advance. If it wasn’t for that, I would have dropped this series after #1 (not the prelude, that was actually decent).


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 Post subject: Re: Harbinger Wars II #4
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 1:03:52 pm 
Clinkin' bottles with Aram
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You are not wrong, here is our thoughts on it.

http://onlythevaliant.com/episodes/vcr177/


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 Post subject: Re: Harbinger Wars II #4
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 1:12:08 pm 
I had the 1,000,000th post on this board and all I got was this lousy custom ranking.
I had the 1,000,000th post on this board and all I got was this lousy custom ranking.
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Valiant fan since: 1992
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That bad, huh?


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 Post subject: Re: Harbinger Wars II #4
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:46:28 pm 
Completely ruined the ending of Last Jedi: The Force Reloaded of the Green Gables 8 -- This Time, It's Really Really Personal (In Space).
Completely ruined the ending of Last Jedi: The Force Reloaded of the Green Gables 8 -- This Time, It's Really Really Personal (In Space).

Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2016 3:08:41 pm
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Location: Hollywood, Florida
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Favorite title: X-O Manowar
Can someone explain what happened during this event to me?

So Livewire knocks out all the power in the country. Presumably the entriety of the events of the book take place over a short period of time. I get that.

What happened to the Snowbeard character? What happened to the mobile habitats that Omen was setting up for psiots? Where was Kris for the entirety of this event? What did any of this have to do with Harbinger: Renegade? Where are the Secret Weapons? Psiots are just psychics, so how was Tito able to generate actual flesh tentacles? How did Tito regain control of his powers, before he magically reappeared in Hawaii? What happened to that team of H.A.R.D. Corps members that were stalking the Renegades safe house? Why didn't they join Palmer to fight the Renegades in that small town? Tito didn't actually hurt anyone, so what was the rationale for attacking him? Why was no one watching Tito? What happened to Jay and that other girl whose name I can't remember? Did they even get their powers activated?

Why did Livewire turn Bloodshot into a demon, instead of just giving him a jetpack or something more practical? Why wasn't Livewire's manipulation of Bloodshot ever addressed outside of one line in Capshaw's monologue? How did Livewire "kill hundreds of innocents" in a temporary blackout? Why couldn't X-O restore the power himself if he was capable of bringing the satellites back into orbit? How much time even passed during this event for a temporary blackout to be considered such a serious crisis? Don't hospitals, and all other emergency facilities have generators that would be unaffected by a temporary blackout? What was anyone trying to accomplish during this event? Why did Tama save Peter? Peter sucks.

Why is G.A.T.E. working with Omen? Omen literally tried to kill Bloodshot's family right before all of this happened, and Colonel Capshaw was the one protecting Bloodshot and his family? Why would G.A.T.E. cooperate with Omen knowing that they're a terrorist group? Why did T.A.D.D. die offscreen? Why did T.A.D.D. have to die at all? How can Livewire breathe in space? Why would Livewire make a mech that doesn't cover her head? How could Bloodshot, regardless of whatever upgrades he received, manage to 1v1 X-O Manowar? Why is there no a single group fight in this event, instead of various characters 1v1ing each other? For an entire event focused on the consequences of a blackout, why are the consequences of the blackout never actually depicted in the story?

What is Livewire talking about when she says Omen has been torturing children? Omen has never actually been shown to have captured any psiots besides Peter, who sucks. What psiots is Livewire trying to protect exactly? The only factions of psiots that have been shown to be active in the United States are the Renegades, Secret Weapons, and the Consortium. None of these faction actually play any role in the story, and despite Livewire's talk of protecting psiots she never actually attempts to contact any of these groups. These groups, mind you, collectively have less than twenty members in total. Is Livewire waging a war against the entire United States to protect twenty people, when half of those people are confirmed terrorists? There are a grand total of six psiots that are actual participants in the events of this story, and all they do is have a skirmish with Major Palmer outside of a pharmacy. Why did Livewire not even attempt to round up all of the psiots in the U.S. to bring them somewhere safe? Presumably the main conflict in the Prelude was that Amanda's connections to G.A.T.E. prevented her from protecting the Secret Weapons from Omen. Wouldn't quitting her job, and then rounding up all of the psiots to take them to a secret safe house, be the most logical solution?

Why did DMG/Valiant scare away Eric Heisserer when he's literally the best writer they've ever had? What did they cut from the original version of this event? Based on Eric's comments, DMG/Valiant completely cut out the storyline that would have focused on the effect the blackout had on the country. The event still keeps the gimmick of a rotating art team, but clearly all of Eric's pages were thrown in the garbage. Did they keep some the art, edit the dialogue, and draw some new pages to fill in the blanks in the new story? How many pages are original art, and how much was commissioned after DMG took over and axed Eric? The final event is clearly shorter in length then what the original would have been so how much of the original story was cut? In Eric's script, Livewire didn't actually kill anyone. The blackout only affected nonessential technology. Hospitals, airports, and traffic lights would have still been operable. So why did DMG feel the need to randomly throw in lines of dialogue where Livewire's blackout caused the deaths of "hundred of innocents"?

Pre-Harbinger Wars II, why did Major Palmer call for a drone stike on a U.S. city to neutralize a tiny group of psiots? Why did no one actually use a psiot dampener to capture Gen 0, instead of attempting to fight them head-on like idiots? How did Omen bomb a city, attempt to kidnap civilians under G.A.T.E.'s protections, then unlawfully execute numerous civilians living in the Willows, and yet face no consequences for any of these actions in the actual event? Why did none of the stories, supposedly leading up to this event, have any impact on the content of the story?

What did I just read?


Last edited by SuperMage on Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:36:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Harbinger Wars II #4
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:58:33 pm 
5318008
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What happened to the HARD Corp members that are under Alpha's control? I can't imagine Palmer would just leave them and not come back. Why should we care about any of the new nameless faceless HARD Corp members?

What exactly is the catalyst for this story? Was it Gen 0 taking over Rook? Or was it the kid that Peter activated that paralyzed everyone in that town?

Where's GN-GR? Alpha? Solomon? Harada? What are the Secret Weapons doing? Where are the Zygos Twins?

I wonder if we will ever get any insight to the behind the scenes of the how/what/why of this awful event. facepalm

Why should I give any money to Valiant as a company if I can't trust their product? :cry:


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 Post subject: Re: Harbinger Wars II #4
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 1:05:24 am 
You gotta have Faith!
You gotta have Faith!
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Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:58:17 pm
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Valiant fan since: Bloodshot #1 (2012)
Favorite character: Ninjak/Woody
Favorite title: Bloodshot/Ninjak
Favorite writer: Josh Dysart
Favorite artist: Clayton Crain
I was thinking about a reread but to be honest I’d rather vomit in my mouth.

So, so dissatisfied in this event and what it’s done to what was once a great group of characters.

The editors dont get it.

This is not the Valiant universe us readers once knew: this one is full of incompetence and misunderstanding.


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 Post subject: Re: Harbinger Wars II #4
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:54:23 am 
Just jumpin' through time arcs, that's all.
Just jumpin' through time arcs, that's all.
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Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:19:05 am
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Very disappointing ending. Was hopeful that Kindt would pull things around but it fell way below expectation. Pretty much all points covered in the previous postings but the Faith “we need to set up a super team” was where we hit rock bottom. Kindt is better than this, maybe it was the result of a rush job but I’d rather they delayed it and got it right than this.

New editors seem totally uninterested in the books judging by twitter so not sure where we go from here. Starting to have concerns that the books will lurch into left wing politics (looking at the new writer of Livewire and editors twitter) and if that does happen then I’ll drop the books. I’ll be hoping for the best though and if the books are good and personal politics stay out then I’m happy to stay on board.

I think we’ve also learned that Giorello should never draw Peter Stancheck again! facepalm

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 Post subject: Re: Harbinger Wars II #4
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:55:26 am 
Harbinger rank: Aonisaibushi
Harbinger rank: Aonisaibushi
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This is worse than Dead Drop. Atleast Dead Drop doesn't really matter that much, this however was supposed to be Valiants big Event in 2018. All it did was to show an absurdly powerful Livewire, that doesn't act like the Livewire we knew before. Well she isn't the only one acting out of character...
I'm don't have much enthusiasm left for the future of the Valiant Universe.


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 Post subject: Re: Harbinger Wars II #4
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:06:56 am 
I had the 1,000,000th post on this board and all I got was this lousy custom ranking.
I had the 1,000,000th post on this board and all I got was this lousy custom ranking.
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The silver lining: it was off the Tamo scale.


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 Post subject: Re: Harbinger Wars II #4
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 1:08:40 pm 
Nanite-powered posting
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We at VCR feel your pain, guys.

Again, the only thing I can say in defense of this is that they lost a titanic write/architect in Heiserrer, leaving one man to fill the shoes of two.

What stings most is all the buildup and unanswered questions. A disappointing four issues is one thing; this being the culmination of months and months of stories is another. Add on top all the unfulfilled potential tied to characters and plot points that weren’t used, and this is a tough one to swallow.

It’s easy to feel fatigued and let down; I’m right there.

What we’re experiencing now are the results of a shakeup. I feel like we might be through the worst of it, though.

That fact that my cohort Chris is optimistic about the new books coming is certainly helpful... I mean let’s face it: if he can be excited about something, can’t we all? (Love ya bud [FACE WITH TEARS OF JOY])

I’m trying to stay optimistic. We have two stellar books running now with Ninja-k and Shadowman, both of which are operating tightly within the established continuity quite well. If the forthcoming books can do the same, well... we may again see brighter days.

-Softy



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 Post subject: Re: Harbinger Wars II #4
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 1:22:47 pm 
Clinkin' bottles with Aram
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Yeah I don't think we should throw the new guys under the bus based on this.


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 Post subject: Re: Harbinger Wars II #4
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:24:11 pm 
Just jumpin' through time arcs, that's all.
Just jumpin' through time arcs, that's all.

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hawkeyeps wrote:
Yeah I don't think we should throw the new guys under the bus based on this.

They published it. They didnt save Eric. They hacked the bloodshot title and dragged xo out with a weak story.
I say blame the news guys so far not one thing they have done right since the take over.
No wonder their stocks are dropping like a stone in water.

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 Post subject: Re: Harbinger Wars II #4
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:35:42 pm 
Rockin' out in Torquehalla
Rockin' out in Torquehalla
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Favorite artist: All of them, really
I think Kindt probably was stuck writing HW2, he probably didn't want to do it at all. The plan, both Heisserer and him writing something epic, but the buyout...

Kindt will be gone after 24 on XO. He won't write for Valiant again (sadly)

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 Post subject: Re: Harbinger Wars II #4
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:13:14 am 
Just jumpin' through time arcs, that's all.
Just jumpin' through time arcs, that's all.
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TheeBaldMoose wrote:

Kindt will be gone after 24 on XO. He won't write for Valiant again (sadly)

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When did this news come out?


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 Post subject: Re: Harbinger Wars II #4
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:33:26 am 
Rockin' out in Torquehalla
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I didn’t read this issue after the disaster that was issue #3, and probably won’t after reading everyone’s comments here. I’m no longer buying the monthly issues, and am not sure I’m too concerned about even getting them on sale at this point.

I agree with the common sentiment expressed... the original plan for this story was drastically altered into what we are seeing now, with the lack of Solomon, Harada, and Stormbringer being the proof. What caused this change? I’m afraid we’ll never know.

I do hope that there can be some way to reintroduce the original plan, otherwise it would be a real shame to see all that build up go to waste. People are noting how different Livewire has been acting... perhaps we could find out the Alpha has been subtly influencing her all along, distracting always the eyes who should be noticing him while he moves in the shadows. We’ll just have to see.

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 Post subject: Re: Harbinger Wars II #4
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 12:15:11 pm 
Just jumpin' through time arcs, that's all.
Just jumpin' through time arcs, that's all.
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Keith wrote:
People are noting how different Livewire has been acting... perhaps we could find out the Alpha has been subtly influencing her all along, distracting always the eyes who should be noticing him while he moves in the shadows. We’ll just have to see.


THIS explanation would have helped rescue issue 4. I guess there’s still the aftermath issue :hope:


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 Post subject: Re: Harbinger Wars II #4
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:31:57 pm 
Personal shoe-shopper for Atom!
Personal shoe-shopper for Atom!
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This was a cliff notes version of a major event...

so question number 1... are cliff notes still relevant?

I just want to chock all the blame on Kindt. The guy is a veteran and had a hold of both this is XO, and neither delivered to allow this event to rise above the loss of Eric. But here, it's the typical Kindt that 'gets bored' writing superhero comics. Rather than deliver a story, we get an issue that is told in retrospect. I could see if this was the 'aftermath' issue, but it's not. I enjoyed bits of prelude thru 3, and held out that it would all pay off and make sense.

But again, I don't blame the new crew. They had to publish something...and I would think they are also familiarizing themselves with the world that Kindt should've known. The only hope we have now, is that someone can come along and make all of this mess relevant.

Dallow Spicer1 wrote:
I think we’ve also learned that Giorello should never draw Peter Stancheck again!

+1
And Kindt should never write Stanchek again-- "Kid". He came off as old as Giorello drew him.


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 Post subject: Re: Harbinger Wars II #4
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:20:21 am 
innerSPACE does whatever I tell them
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Dallow Spicer1 wrote:
Keith wrote:
People are noting how different Livewire has been acting... perhaps we could find out the Alpha has been subtly influencing her all along, distracting always the eyes who should be noticing him while he moves in the shadows. We’ll just have to see.


THIS explanation would have helped rescue issue 4. I guess there’s still the aftermath issue :hope:

One can only hope there might be something salvageable in the aftermath issue... that’s a pretty solid plot idea, Kieth!

I cannot understand how we ended up with such a mess of a mini-series. I kind of agree with those who are saying this might be worse than Dead Drop, a new low point for VEI.

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 Post subject: Re: Harbinger Wars II #4
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:21:45 am 
innerSPACE does whatever I tell them
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hawkeyeps wrote:
You are not wrong, here is our thoughts on it.

http://onlythevaliant.com/episodes/vcr177/

Thanks for sweeping in and posting the VCR link while I was away, Gunslinger! H.A.R.D. Cats FTW!! :high-five:

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 Post subject: Re: Harbinger Wars II #4
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:28:36 am 
innerSPACE does whatever I tell them
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nonplayer wrote:
hawkeyeps wrote:
Yeah I don't think we should throw the new guys under the bus based on this.

They published it. They didnt save Eric. They hacked the bloodshot title and dragged xo out with a weak story.
I say blame the news guys so far not one thing they have done right since the take over.
No wonder their stocks are dropping like a stone in water.

I’m with Hawkeye on this - the blame for this mess should not entirely be laid at the feet of the newer guys in the office. While the DMG takeover certainly impacted the results, via the loss of Eric, the change to the story format, etc. - this story was planned out for a year or two in advance, by the old guard guys we all love & respect who have left. I’m sure the actual script changed somewhat with the shake-ups as mentioned, but it couldn’t have been *that* radical of a change. And the prelude issue was still great, IMO. I just don’t know what anyone was thinking when they green-lit the rest of this.

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 Post subject: Re: Harbinger Wars II #4
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:29:54 am 
innerSPACE does whatever I tell them
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Dallow Spicer1 wrote:
TheeBaldMoose wrote:

Kindt will be gone after 24 on XO. He won't write for Valiant again (sadly)

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When did this news come out?

I haven’t heard that yet either! Is it official?

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 Post subject: Re: Harbinger Wars II #4
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:59:34 pm 
Nice art! (I used to own that.)
Nice art! (I used to own that.)
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For anyone who liked the book (or at least the art) #1-4 pages are now available:
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 Post subject: Re: Harbinger Wars II #4
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:13:45 pm 
Mmm, I was drooling over Cooshie tonight.
Mmm, I was drooling over Cooshie tonight.
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Taken in its entirety, this was a flop. Mostly because Valiant doesn't have any villains so they are left pitting the heroes against each other. And the villains they do have, they ignore.

Livewire flying around in space? What's she breathing? Aric waving a magic wand and resetting the power and the satellites? Please.

And what the hell have they turned Bloodshot into? The demon was a reach but at least explained as Livewire tinkering with his nanites. But at the end he's some dis-incorporated ghost that can pull his bits back together? And I thought him surviving having his head chopped off was ridiculous. But this...

Like others, I am not prepared to lay this at the feet of the new management. They were stuck with this assignment and Kindt went off the rails.

What a mess.


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 Post subject: Re: Harbinger Wars II #4
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:24:48 pm 
Just jumpin' through time arcs, that's all.
Just jumpin' through time arcs, that's all.
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I don't know the continuity of VEI like a lot of people on here, so I've just been trying to read this series as a casual fan, just checking in on the summer event. As a standalone series, it didn't really make a lot of sense. After 4 issues it somehow seems like not much happened, and I never really related to any of the characters.

As far as I can tell, Livewire freaked out and cut off the power to the US, killing hundreds of innocent people, because the government was trying to take out her 'family', a group of superpowered children and teens. Then Ninjak sees the wisdom of her ways and joins her because 'they're just children'. Ignoring the fact that the children have the power (and immaturity) to cause massive damage and destruction to the world (as Livewire has just demonstrated). There isn't any feeling of conflict though, we just see Livewire doing horrible things, like using Bloodshot to kill everyone on the Loveboat, without any consequences or sense of responsibility? Who are the heroes in any of this? Who should I even identify with or root for?

I've said this before, I just don't think Kindt is a good fit to be the main writer of a superhero universe. Nothing I've read from him recently has been satisfying the way that good superhero comics are. Not trying to knock the guy, just my opinion, but I think he's better suited for quirky sci-fi and maybe writing less books per month would allow him to develop the plots better so that when you get to the end it all ties together instead of feeling slapdash.

Idk what's going on with DMG or whatever, but something is definitely rotten in the state of Valiant. They had months to prepare a 4 issue series using all the best characters that Valiant has to offer, and they come out with this? How did this sound good at any phase of the planning?

I'm not trying to dog on anyone, just wish better for these characters. Valiant only worked when the creators were hungry and passionate about the characters, willing to work harder than anyone else to make the stories great. I don't sense that passion here on any level, and it's disappointing for people who have followed these characters for 25+ years. If this series is making hardcore fans quit buying Valiant, what about the casual fans who try out Valiant with this? They will think this is what Valiant is about and never try one again. I don't want to seem negative or a downer, just have high expectations for this universe.


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 Post subject: Re: Harbinger Wars II #4
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:50:17 pm 
Harbinger rank: Aonisaibushi
Harbinger rank: Aonisaibushi

Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2008 11:52:24 am
Posts: 197
jmatt wrote:
Taken in its entirety, this was a flop. Mostly because Valiant doesn't have any villains so they are left pitting the heroes against each other. And the villains they do have, they ignore.


THIS....This is my biggest concern and issue with Valiant at this point (this disaster of an event series aside). Valiant has no real villains, and most of the interesting ones they try to come up with they kill off or turn into some neutral group. Look at Eternity....Are there Villains, are there not? I get that everything isn't so black & white, but these are comic books, you should at least have a group you side with.

The original Harbinger Wars worked, but how many times can you essentially do "Marvel Civil War". At some point, you need more than your heroes beating the snot out of each other. Harada works as a Villain. Darque is an awesome villain. David Camp "could" be a good villain. After that, most of them get killed off after they serve their purpose or are rather boring. While investing in your heroes are great, I'd rather they spend more creative energy on developing and creating new main stay villains and less on how can we spin hero X's origin story in a new direction for the umpteenth time. I swear to god every Valiant hero has like 20 origin stories...Do we really need more?


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