Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by Chiclo »

So it would seem that several antagonists of the comicsgate have declared the movement dead. I hope not - keep on trucking, comicsgate. :thumb:

I did see several pages from Iron Sights, a comic released by one of the prominent comicsgate people. Garbage. The art is garbage, rushed and rough. Some of the sins of the art could be fixed by a capable colourist but not all of them. The lettering is garbage. The book looks like it was lettered by somebody who does not understand the art of lettering with the pacing of the words coming out as unnatural and uneven and random bolding of words placing emphasis willy nilly. I have not read the entire comic so I cannot make an informed conclusion that the writing is garbage but what snippets I have seen reads like some 14 year old trying to capture the tough quality of the last Steven Segall movie he watched.

I think I have a refined eye where it comes to garbage comic books. I am a DU enthusiast and have compiled many checklists for garbage comic book companies - Parody Press and Spoof Comics spring to mind as a recent example. Not only do I own a lot of Spoof Comics, I have actually read a few of them. I am a small press enthusiast as well and I have seen some horrible examples from people who should not continue putting pen to paper. This Iron Sights is even unexceptional as an example of garbage comics. Wasn't this guy's schtick basically that he could do comics better than the people Marvel and DC are employing? I would certainly think this one example does not do much to advance his claim. He should stick to rabble-rousing - although he is no more skilled at it than an artless thug, he seems to enjoy it.

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by possumgrease »

My god, what a savage take down!

Image

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by Sven the Returned »

Chiclo wrote:So it would seem that several antagonists of the comicsgate have declared the movement dead. I hope not - keep on trucking, comicsgate. :thumb:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/from-texas ... 1526400385" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

These guys should look into this Comicsgate thing...

It's incredibly how outgunned non SJW's/un pc people are 9in the culture war.
possumgrease wrote:My god, what a savage take down!

Image
That is not how these things work.

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

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possumgrease wrote:My god, what a savage take down!

Image
OOOHHH YEAH! Image

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by Sven the Returned »

Chiclo wrote:
possumgrease wrote:My god, what a savage take down!

Image
OOOHHH YEAH! Image
Image

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by Cyberstrike »

Chiclo wrote:So it would seem that several antagonists of the comicsgate have declared the movement dead. I hope not - keep on trucking, comicsgate. :thumb:
Comicgate was and is a hate group. I don't give a damn if people like me or not but that what it is and I have seen enough of Meyers and company's crap on social media to know that he's a useless hack without a shed of talent. I would rather burn my money than give it too a hate group, because I have more respect for myself and my money.

*SQUEE* Meyers, EVS, and the rest of Comicgate creators and their supporters, may they all burn in Hell too, next Hitler.
Know this: I would rather be hated for being honest for my opinions, than being loved as a liar!

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Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by possumgrease »

I watched a documentary today on Johnny Cash going to play for Richard Nixon. The documentary itself was just ok, but I saw a lot of parallels to today’s atmosphere.

What’s gotten everyone so angry? I remain convinced that most of us don’t really care about half of what we get angry about. Whatever side of the aisle you’re on, go home tonight and hug someone you love. Get some perspective and be a decent human going forward. If you want to argue about how to spend taxes, I’m here to debate, but if you just want to be afraid of “the other,” I’m afraid I can’t help you.

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by Sven the Returned »

possumgrease wrote:I watched a documentary today on Johnny Cash going to play for Richard Nixon. The documentary itself was just ok, but I saw a lot of parallels to today’s atmosphere.

What’s gotten everyone so angry? I remain convinced that most of us don’t really care about half of what we get angry about. Whatever side of the aisle you’re on, go home tonight and hug someone you love. Get some perspective and be a decent human going forward. If you want to argue about how to spend taxes, I’m here to debate, but if you just want to be afraid of “the other,” I’m afraid I can’t help you.
The other half is eniough to have IRL consequences.

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by leonmallett »

Cyberstrike wrote:
Chiclo wrote:So it would seem that several antagonists of the comicsgate have declared the movement dead. I hope not - keep on trucking, comicsgate. :thumb:
Comicgate was and is a hate group. I don't give a damn if people like me or not but that what it is and I have seen enough of Meyers and company's crap on social media to know that he's a useless hack without a shed of talent. I would rather burn my money than give it too a hate group, because I have more respect for myself and my money.

*SQUEE* Meyers, EVS, and the rest of Comicgate creators and their supporters, may they all burn in Hell too, next Hitler.
Fully agreed it is a way to propagate hate, packaged as not wanting change. I won't now back projects by EVS, Miller et al which I otherwise would have done.

When I read the blacklist that Comics gate have complied, they are creators who i want to support with my custom.
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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by Sven the Returned »

leonmallett wrote:
Cyberstrike wrote:
Chiclo wrote:So it would seem that several antagonists of the comicsgate have declared the movement dead. I hope not - keep on trucking, comicsgate. :thumb:
Comicgate was and is a hate group. I don't give a damn if people like me or not but that what it is and I have seen enough of Meyers and company's crap on social media to know that he's a useless hack without a shed of talent. I would rather burn my money than give it too a hate group, because I have more respect for myself and my money.

*SQUEE* Meyers, EVS, and the rest of Comicgate creators and their supporters, may they all burn in Hell too, next Hitler.
Fully agreed it is a way to propagate hate, packaged as not wanting change. I won't now back projects by EVS, Miller et al which I otherwise would have done.

When I read the blacklist that Comics gate have complied, they are creators who i want to support with my custom.
Changing the color of a character in the most stagnanat industry in the world constitutes change?

All of the projects propagate hate?

Why would ypu automatically support someone just because he/she is on their list?

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by leonmallett »

Sven the Returned wrote:
leonmallett wrote:
Cyberstrike wrote:
Chiclo wrote:So it would seem that several antagonists of the comicsgate have declared the movement dead. I hope not - keep on trucking, comicsgate. :thumb:
Comicgate was and is a hate group. I don't give a damn if people like me or not but that what it is and I have seen enough of Meyers and company's crap on social media to know that he's a useless hack without a shed of talent. I would rather burn my money than give it too a hate group, because I have more respect for myself and my money.

*SQUEE* Meyers, EVS, and the rest of Comicgate creators and their supporters, may they all burn in Hell too, next Hitler.
Fully agreed it is a way to propagate hate, packaged as not wanting change. I won't now back projects by EVS, Miller et al which I otherwise would have done.

When I read the blacklist that Comics gate have complied, they are creators who i want to support with my custom.
<sigh, here we go....>
Sven the Returned wrote:Changing the color of a character in the most stagnanat industry in the world constitutes change?
Interesting that you zero in on colour when I didn't mention it; says more about your thinking than mine I think. And possibly says something about your biases?

Change can include the colour of characters, their gender, sexual orientation, age, ability or disability, whether they are married or not, and so on. But much more than that. Change is about different creative voices, and not creating a toxic sector of fandom which is hounding out female creators simply for being female, or gay creators for being gay, or liberal creators for being liberal.

However the movement has particularly zeroed in on colour among other things, and be clear, not the ONLY thing, so that is on the movement itself.
Sven the Returned wrote:All of the projects propagate hate?
My words were "it is a way to propagate hate"; 'it' meaning the Comicsgate movement - please do not take my words to make your own context.

Because they (creators, and other faces of Comicsgate) support that movement I won't support them - that is not the same as whatever meaning you decided to cull from my words (which you quoted).
Sven the Returned wrote:Why would ypu automatically support someone just because he/she is on their list?
Again, your reading is not akin to what I posted, and a theme has clearly emerged in that.

I said "When I read the blacklist that Comics gate have complied, they are creators who I want to support with my custom"; note I wrote not 'will', but 'want'. There is a distinction. The indication is of a viewpoint, not some absolute reductionist statement which you tried to change it into for some reason which remains unfathomable to me. But if you have an issue with that comment, then really, what point are you trying to make?
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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by TheFerg714 »

Cyberstrike wrote:Comicgate was and is a hate group. I don't give a damn if people like me or not but that what it is and I have seen enough of Meyers and company's crap on social media to know that he's a useless hack without a shed of talent. I would rather burn my money than give it too a hate group, because I have more respect for myself and my money.

*SQUEE* Meyers, EVS, and the rest of Comicgate creators and their supporters, may they all burn in Hell too, next Hitler.
leonmallett wrote:Fully agreed it is a way to propagate hate, packaged as not wanting change. I won't now back projects by EVS, Miller et al which I otherwise would have done.
It's actually adorable how little you guys attempt to understand something that you disagree with. Grow up and stop wishing hellfire on people.

I'd love to see some actually evidence of this "hate" you speak of. I have no doubt that there are some people that considered themselves part of Comicsgate that are legitimately hateful, but assuming that everyone is a hateful bigot is akin to putting a blindfold over your eyes and yelling, "THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THE COMIC BOOK INDUSTRY!"

EDIT: I thought this image perfectly captured how you guys are acting right now:
Image

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by Chiclo »

The question that comicsgate asks is worth discussing, are these changes that were being made to comics characters gratuitous and pushed by some agenda with which some comic buyers might disagree. The problem is, rather than discussing it, they are organising some kind of mob and threatening the livelihoods - and sometimes lives - of their opponents in the discussion. Acting like uncivilised hooligans and adversarial barbarians where such behaviour is uncalled for. "You sure have a nice comic book store here, it would be a shame if something happened to it."

And then these alternative comics that they offer are absolute garbage. Amateur expressions of comics as an art form, less worthwhile than fingerpaints churned out at daycare centers all across the country.

But what do I know; I still cruise the internet like it's 2006 and my flip-phone self doesn't take things like google reviews seriously as a way to hurt businesses out in the real world. It still befuddles me that some anhedonic loon out there gave the Amarillo VFW 1 star on Yelp and (as of the last time I looked a few months ago) that still stands as the only review and they only have one star on Yelp. But really, how many people likely to go to the VFW are going to check Yelp about it and choose an alternative because of a one-star rating? That venn diagram doesn't have much overlap.

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by TheFerg714 »

Chiclo wrote:The problem is, rather than discussing it, they are organising some kind of mob and threatening the livelihoods - and sometimes lives - of their opponents in the discussion. Acting like uncivilised hooligans and adversarial barbarians where such behaviour is uncalled for. "You sure have a nice comic book store here, it would be a shame if something happened to it."
I would love to see some proof for any of this.

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by leonmallett »

<another sigh>
TheFerg714 wrote:....
It's actually adorable how little you guys attempt to understand something that you disagree with. Grow up and stop wishing hellfire on people.

I'd love to see some actually evidence of this "hate" you speak of. I have no doubt that there are some people that considered themselves part of Comicsgate that are legitimately hateful, but assuming that everyone is a hateful bigot is akin to putting a blindfold over your eyes and yelling, "THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THE COMIC BOOK INDUSTRY!"

EDIT: I thought this image perfectly captured how you guys are acting right now:
Image
Funny how you choose to characterise comments - firstly, you belittle and therefore demean your own contribution by referring to those of us you quote as 'adorable', which seems clear to be your derogatory semantic equivalent to 'snowflake'. Hardly the basis of civil discourse, or a way to make a meaningful contribution.

So that aside, where did any of us wish this "hellfire on people."? Curious to learn more about that, unless facts and context don't support your own polemic.

Finally, is your entire argument that Comicsgate is not polarising and is not intrinsically hateful? If the language tropes of the movement are used to hound out creators based on gender or sexuality, then sorry to say, but there is clearly a problem and the source is the movement and one of its de facto leads. If Meyer is not a problem, then you don't have a problem with what he says. Yet if he is a clear figurehead of the movement, which he clearly is, then it is impossible to disentangle his messaging from the ethos of the movement.
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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by TheFerg714 »

leonmallett wrote: So that aside, where did any of us wish this "hellfire on people."? Curious to learn more about that, unless facts and context don't support your own polemic
I might have lumped you in where you didn't belong, but Cyberstrike definitely said: "*SQUEE* Meyers, EVS, and the rest of Comicgate creators and their supporters, may they all burn in Hell too, next Hitler."
Finally, is your entire argument that Comicsgate is not polarising and is not intrinsically hateful?
Yes.
If the language tropes of the movement are used to hound out creators based on gender or sexuality, then sorry to say, but there is clearly a problem and the source is the movement
Hound out? Please give me some examples of D&C "hounding out" creators based on gender or sexuality.

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by leonmallett »

TheFerg714 wrote:
If the language tropes of the movement are used to hound out creators based on gender or sexuality, then sorry to say, but there is clearly a problem and the source is the movement
Hound out? Please give me some examples of D&C "hounding out" creators based on gender or sexuality.
https://www.polygon.com/comics/2018/8/2 ... van-sciver" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.thedailybeast.com/comicsgat ... profitable" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In July of 2017, five days after the death of groundbreaking comics publisher Flo Steinberg, a group of Marvel Comics’ female staff went out for milkshakes to celebrate her legacy. One of them, Heather Antos—at the time an assistant editor at the company working on The Unbelievable Gwenpool—snapped a selfie of the group holding their sweets and posted it on Twitter.

What followed was akin to a feeding frenzy. According to a vocal contingent online, Antos and the Marvel Milkshake Crew were “fake geek girls,” “social justice warriors,” and “tumblr-virtue signalers,” the sort of people who were ruining the comics industry by their very presence. “The creepiest collection of stereotypical SJWs [“social justice warriors”] anyone could possibly imagine,” one user tweeted. Musings on Antos’ sexual availability led another to write, “Better have her sign a consent form, she looks like the ‘false rape charge’ type.”

While staff and creators from across the comics industry rallied with a Twitter campaign to support Antos, the abuse continued. Much of it was driven by the goading of a single Twitter account: @DiversityAndCmx, run by Richard C. Meyer. The resulting swirl of recrimination from comics professionals caused a spike in Meyer’s followers, thus setting a pattern many would come to regret. It was the first many in the industry had heard of him, or of the amorphous harassment campaign that came to be known as “Comicsgate.”
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ke-a-stand" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://bentcorner.com/i-supported-comi ... l-i-didnt/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/09/15 ... son-troll/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/books/news/ ... ke-selfie/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Chelsea Cain, the writer behind the female superhero comic book Mockingbird, left Twitter in October 2016 following months of harassment, while Zainab Akhtar, a British-Muslim writer, closed her Eisner Award-winning comic book journalism site Comics & Cola last year after being deluged with racist, misogynistic abuse via email and social media.
Take of them what you will or won't; but it is clear that a number of female creators targeted by Comicsgate have left the industry as well as social media. Whether or not the movement has a strand about returning to a previous time like the 90's (which was a victim of its own success and is very unlikely to be repeated regardless of which creators Comicsgate approves or not), the movement is intrinsically linked with harassment.

The leads of the movement are intrinsically linked with harassment and toxicity:

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/05/11 ... a-anymore/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/02/02 ... dc-comics/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.thedailybeast.com/comicsgat ... profitable" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by leonmallett »

leonmallett wrote:
TheFerg714 wrote:....
It's actually adorable how little you guys attempt to understand something that you disagree with. Grow up and stop wishing hellfire on people.

....
Funny how you choose to characterise comments - firstly, you belittle and therefore demean your own contribution by referring to those of us you quote as 'adorable', which seems clear to be your derogatory semantic equivalent to 'snowflake'. Hardly the basis of civil discourse, or a way to make a meaningful contribution.
...
[added bold emphasis mine]

I note you don't acknowledge or address this point. And one of the tactics employed (often in more hateful terms) by adherents of the movement.
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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by TheFerg714 »

First of all, I'd just like to point out that your "research" all came from left-leaning and notoriously bias websites like Polygon, The Daily Beast, and *SQUEE* Bleeding Cool.
The video with Darwyn Cooke that was retweeted by the Comicsgate supporter did contain ideas espoused by other comicsgate generally. I don't see how this is evidence of harassment?
In July of 2017, five days after the death of groundbreaking comics publisher Flo Steinberg, a group of Marvel Comics’ female staff went out for milkshakes to celebrate her legacy. One of them, Heather Antos—at the time an assistant editor at the company working on The Unbelievable Gwenpool—snapped a selfie of the group holding their sweets and posted it on Twitter.
People saw this "milkshake gathering" (can't believe I just had to actually type that phrase facepalm ) as emblematic of what is wrong with the industry, specifically Marvel: People get hired that don't deserve it; it wasn't because these were women, it was because many people felt that some of the people in the photo (and others) weren't hired due to merit, rather they were hired because of their gender, politics, skin color, sexuality, etc.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ke-a-stand
https://bentcorner.com/i-supported-comi ... l-i-didnt/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/09/15 ... son-troll/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/books/news/ ... ke-selfie/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I'm sorry, but I don't see any proof of actual harassment. All of these links like to hide behind words like "harassment campaigns" and yet they don't show any evidence of this happening. In fact, the tweets that they provide are usually from people responding to a comicsgate supporter.
Chelsea Cain, the writer behind the female superhero comic book Mockingbird, left Twitter in October 2016 following months of harassment, while Zainab Akhtar, a British-Muslim writer, closed her Eisner Award-winning comic book journalism site Comics & Cola last year after being deluged with racist, misogynistic abuse via email and social media.
Take of them what you will or won't; but it is clear that a number of female creators targeted by Comicsgate have left the industry as well as social media. Whether or not the movement has a strand about returning to a previous time like the 90's (which was a victim of its own success and is very unlikely to be repeated regardless of which creators Comicsgate approves or not), the movement is intrinsically linked with harassment.
Chelsea Cain inserted lefist politics into her comics blatantly and obviously. There's nothing wrong with calling that out.
I think people like you like to link it with harassment, but I would argue that it stands for more than that. Mainly (and among other things), companies should hire people based on merit, not politics or immutable traits. Also, comics should appeal to people that actually read comics.
The leads of the movement are intrinsically linked with harassment and toxicity:
https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/05/11 ... a-anymore/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/02/02 ... dc-comics/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I think it's really telling that you're using one year-old post, that Van Sciver profusely apologized for, as an example of comicsgate being "intrinsically linked with harassment and toxicitiy." Also, he apparently "left" the movement...
leonmallett wrote: [added bold emphasis mine]

I note you don't acknowledge or address this point. And one of the tactics employed (often in more hateful terms) by adherents of the movement.
1) I didn't respond because using the word "adorable" is not hateful. It was, in fact, meant to demean some silly ideas though. And that's exactly what you guys were espousing: silly ideas, like "it is a way to propagate hate, packaged as not wanting change," and the aforementioned hell/Hitler comment.
2) How is 'adorable' any worse than putting "<sigh>" before all of your replies. That seems rather demeaning too actually.
3) . I note that you didn't acknowledge or address my point about Cyberstrike (and let's be honest, a lot of comic pros on Twitter) did, in fact, wish hellfire on someone, and compared him to literally Hitler.. Sorry, if you're going to sit on your high horse and act like there are people harassing poor little comic pros every day, you then can't turn around and say that there's nothing wrong with speech like that.

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X-O HoboJoe
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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by X-O HoboJoe »

Ferg, you've been schooled and just don't have the balls to admit it. You remind me of someone else with this problem and it seems the same resolution is in order. It's much nicer when Greg gives you the booger-flick than when the bat comes out.
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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by Chiclo »

TheFerg714 wrote:3) . I note that you didn't acknowledge or address my point about Cyberstrike (and let's be honest, a lot of comic pros on Twitter) did, in fact, wish hellfire on someone, and compared him to literally Hitler.. Sorry, if you're going to sit on your high horse and act like there are people harassing poor little comic pros every day, you then can't turn around and say that there's nothing wrong with speech like that.
The Ferg raises a good point here - 'Strike, do you actually believe in Hell?

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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by X-O HoboJoe »

Chiclo wrote:
TheFerg714 wrote:3) . I note that you didn't acknowledge or address my point about Cyberstrike (and let's be honest, a lot of comic pros on Twitter) did, in fact, wish hellfire on someone, and compared him to literally Hitler.. Sorry, if you're going to sit on your high horse and act like there are people harassing poor little comic pros every day, you then can't turn around and say that there's nothing wrong with speech like that.
The Ferg raises a good point here - 'Strike, do you actually believe in Hell?
:roll: This always ends in one of two ways: Fergie (or his analog) gets wrapped up into a ball and flees/gets banned or the poor sonafa *SQUEE* winds up in a rw location with me where he stares at the ground and says nothing. :kidaround:
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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by myron »

:popcorn:

really like to see where this is headed...


the entire broken out of context quote, spew, quote, spew, quote, spew...is fairly reminiscent of days gone by...<sigh> :P , guess I miss it some...


:popcorn:
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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by X-O HoboJoe »

myron wrote::popcorn:

really like to see where this is headed...


the entire broken out of context quote, spew, quote, spew, quote, spew...is fairly reminiscent of days gone by...<sigh> :P , guess I miss it some...


:popcorn:
It heads nowhere, which is why it's parroted constantly by anyone without the ability to debate or the desire to really discuss.
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Re: Mark Waid talking Comicsgate.

Post by possumgrease »

X-O HoboJoe wrote:
myron wrote::popcorn:

really like to see where this is headed...


the entire broken out of context quote, spew, quote, spew, quote, spew...is fairly reminiscent of days gone by...<sigh> :P , guess I miss it some...


:popcorn:
It heads nowhere, which is why it's parroted constantly by anyone without the ability to debate or the desire to really discuss.
that’s what someone whose team is 2-10 would say. Oh wait. Maybe I’m in the wrong thread.


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