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How would you rate this book?
10 25%  25%  [ 2 ]
9 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
8 13%  13%  [ 1 ]
7 25%  25%  [ 2 ]
6 13%  13%  [ 1 ]
5 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
4 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
3 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
2 25%  25%  [ 2 ]
1 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Total votes : 8
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:26:05 pm 
H.A.R.D.E.R. Corps, with Extra Resistance
H.A.R.D.E.R. Corps, with Extra Resistance
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I thought we could do a book a day (that way people can read one every day or catch up on weekends), talk about it on its own, in the context of whats next, in regards to what expectations it creates and vote on how good it is. I don't have to be the one that posts everyday. If I miss a day or if someone wants to take over please do

For voting think of your single favourite comic book (not just VALIANT) as the benchmark - thats a 10 - and grade according to that.

The voting (I'm hoping) will help new readers make more educated descisions. If this turkey files maybe we can even do a list of the books according to average voting grade.

Make sure to mention what you like'd about the book, what you didn't, what you wish they would have done, your favourite panels, lines of dialogue, little bits of trivia etc.

Eternal Warrior: Fist & Steel #2
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 7:29:09 pm 
Doomed to forever roam the black halls
Doomed to forever roam the black halls
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Art's a little better (atleast we get good anatomy and facial structures).

Again a really, really interesting idea. The ritual of Clay confronting his ego and the things he can't let go of was fascinating. The twist at the end of how he "defeats" the monster is nice. And it makes sense that the Earth would want it's bearing to attain Enlightment fast. The story is a nice protrayal of basic Buhdist ideas.

Unfortunately you can't do a deeper story like this if you don't have the basics down and the story structure is sorely lacking here. We rush through to the end (avoiding much needed character depth in Clay) and then it feels like they ran out of space at the end. The twist feels so disjointed and quick, it almost seems cheap. The ending is way too abrupt with way to little information. Clay finds peace and walks off playing a flute. So? We needed more here. It just brings the whole thing down.

I hate to give only moderate ratings for stories that begin with intelligent ideas but it's just too flawed. A 6.

BTW, 2's...WTF?!? Anyone want to explain their vote?


Last edited by Todd Luck on Sat Feb 04, 2006 9:52:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 4:46:44 am 
I would hang a left...
I would hang a left...
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Todd Luck wrote:
BTW, 2's...WTF?!? Anyone want to explain their vote?


I should go through posting comments all through. You always post these things during the night for me. Anyway, I agree with all you said except that I do not find the idea intelligent or interesting. On the contrary. I find it so artificial that I start from a 4, and then all your complaints are added to that. I do not see any genuine attempt to explore philosphical ideas.

/Magnus


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 8:16:55 am 
Doomed to forever roam the black halls
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magnusr wrote:
Todd Luck wrote:
BTW, 2's...WTF?!? Anyone want to explain their vote?


I should go through posting comments all through. You always post these things during the night for me. Anyway, I agree with all you said except that I do not find the idea intelligent or interesting. On the contrary. I find it so artificial that I start from a 4, and then all your complaints are added to that. I do not see any genuine attempt to explore philosphical ideas.

/Magnus


What did you see when you read it? Exploring philosophical issues is the ONLY thing going on in the entire issue (a smart writer would've probably had other things going on too :wink: ).

What ratings did you give EW 28-50?


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 9:19:52 am 
I would hang a left...
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Todd Luck wrote:
What did you see when you read it? Exploring philosophical issues is the ONLY thing going on in the entire issue (a smart writer would've probably had other things going on too :wink: ).


If there was anything, it was false. Maybe Prosser sold the plot as an exploration of philosophical ideas, but if so he probably didn't understand them himself. Whether it was pretence or not, I did not like it. Actually, if it was pretence, maybe even 2 is more than it deserves.

Quote:
What ratings did you give EW 28-50?


Mixed. Some were rather good and none were as bad as this. This might be the worst Valiant ever published.

/Magnus


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 10:23:53 am 
Doomed to forever roam the black halls
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magnusr wrote:
Todd Luck wrote:
What did you see when you read it? Exploring philosophical issues is the ONLY thing going on in the entire issue (a smart writer would've probably had other things going on too :wink: ).


If there was anything, it was false. Maybe Prosser sold the plot as an exploration of philosophical ideas, but if so he probably didn't understand them himself. Whether it was pretence or not, I did not like it. Actually, if it was pretence, maybe even 2 is more than it deserves.



Sounds like something in there offended you.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 10:43:55 am 
I would hang a left...
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Todd Luck wrote:
Sounds like something in there offended you.


Define "offended". I've never been fond of empy surfaces, especially not when there's a pretence of depth (which I'm not sure there was here, maybe it was meant to be a non-intellectual story). I guess one can say that as a reader I could be offended by a writer who doesn't do his job better. Nothing deeper or more personal than that.

The answer is probably just that I generally vote lower than others. I started voting according to the quality spread in Valiant only, before it was clarified we should compare to all comics, and I've gone on doing that.

/Magnus


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 11:28:22 am 
Doomed to forever roam the black halls
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magnusr wrote:
Todd Luck wrote:
Sounds like something in there offended you.


Define "offended". I've never been fond of empy surfaces, especially not when there's a pretence of depth (which I'm not sure there was here, maybe it was meant to be a non-intellectual story). I guess one can say that as a reader I could be offended by a writer who doesn't do his job better. Nothing deeper or more personal than that.

The answer is probably just that I generally vote lower than others. I started voting according to the quality spread in Valiant only, before it was clarified we should compare to all comics, and I've gone on doing that.

/Magnus


I think our problem is that in order to get the "feeling" he was going for, the author had to make the story a little flat. I think it's meant to read like a story out of a religious text. Most religious texts are filled with simple short stories with characters we know only a little about who have a religious experience that is often ambigious as to the exact details. Eastern religion and mythology is filled with stories about mystical short cuts to Enlightment, transcendance, ect. I suspect that this may have been based on an actual story, legend, or ritual though I don't recall one specifically like it.

I'm still not sure if the ending is Clay "winning" by ceasing his struggle (since the struggle is fulled by ego and self) or if it's a tantric thing were he finds enlightment by being consumed by his desires. Maybe it's a zen koan :) . Regardless, it did make me think and I did appreciate the ideas about getting rid of the self being in a comic.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 11:53:33 am 
I would hang a left...
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Todd Luck wrote:
the author had to make the story a little flat.


In summary you see a story with depth which is made flat, while I see a flat story lacking depth. Not so differing views, but certainly it affects the vote significantly. I think we also agree that the writer is fascinated by Buddhism, but we don't agree how well he understands it. Either way it's an interesting discussion and I think we've provided plenty of information about this issue. I'd love to read more insights (but I don't expect any short path to true enlightment).

/Magnus


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 10:17:59 pm 
Doomed to forever roam the black halls
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Todd Luck wrote:
I suspect that this may have been based on an actual story, legend, or ritual though I don't recall one specifically like it.

I'm still not sure if the ending is Clay "winning" by ceasing his struggle (since the struggle is fulled by ego and self) or if it's a tantric thing were he finds enlightment by being consumed by his desires.


To answer my own wonderings....

http://www.janushead.org/3-2/lingis.cfm

There's actually several sites on the ritual if you search for "chod." Turns out it was actually both the ceasing of the struggle and a tantric thing.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:03:27 pm 
Cruisin' in Darpan's Winnebago
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Valiant fan since: 2012
Favorite character: Divinity
Favorite title: Dr. Mirage
Favorite writer: Van Meter
Favorite artist: Braithwaite & Baron
Voted once for both volumes. This was an ambitious 2-parter that could've easily fit into the 90s DC Vertigo lineup alongside Shade, Sandman, The Invisibles, et al. Gilad was given the roles of catalyst, sidekick and (essentially) narrator rather than as the true lead protagonist, which was an interesting turn of story architecture. The Geomancer's climactic, internal struggle was resolved abruptly, in that it was depicted almost wordlessly; however, the visual art had carried much of the dream-world and spiritual-development segments of the story well before that sequence, so the abruptness was a minor distraction.

Overall, the original Fist & Steel was a rich read that provided food for thought about real-life challenges; as soon as I'd finished part 2, I went back and re-read much of part 1. Recommended for any comic book fan. :thumb:


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