Book of Death #4 Discussion

[Brapbrap]

Well I guess dead ISNT dead in VEI, Gilad is definitely coming back and I bet Darque is too.

overall i think this series wasn't that great, all that happened was a kind of forced 'heroes fighting heroes' fight and a VERY underwhelming end confrontation

there were some really cool moments in it, but im just not that impressed. also they basically lied when marketing the event (or at least intentionally misled) because the marketing implied that all the darque stuff in the book was guaranteed to happen

[Keith]

Well I guess dead ISNT dead in VEI, Gilad is definitely coming back and I bet Darque is too.

I don't know if you can apply that here. We know Gilad doesn't die as we've seen alive him in the future via Rai and Timewalker. The characters don't know it, though.

overall i think this series wasn't that great, all that happened was a kind of forced 'heroes fighting heroes' fight and a VERY underwhelming end confrontation

there were some really cool moments in it, but im just not that impressed.

Yeah, I'm inclined to agree, though I blame myself for reading the spoilers on Bleeding Cool

also they basically lied when marketing the event (or at least intentionally misled) because the marketing implied that all the darque stuff in the book was guaranteed to happen

Yeah, which was basically my concern in my fear of BoD post. That we'd have a Terminator 2/Back to the Future ending. Unless they are referring strictly to the Fall of... one shots. Those I could see still applying. But I thought the premise for those was "these are the other stories in the Book of the Geomancers." Now it seems like Tama is writing the book from square one.

Also, does this not invalidate the future from where Gilad sent Tama back?

[bRai]

I blame myself for reading the spoilers on Bleeding Cool

So do I.[/Ghostbusters]

It was underwhelming. Like a dog fart. The Fall Of issues were fun though. That's the silver lining I'm taking away.

[Brapbrap]

i think the fall of... oneshots are actually canon but they still mislead people and made it sound like the glimpses in the book of death mini were canon when they werent

[greg]

While the Book of Death #1 - #4 have ended, the story hasn't ended... and may not end for years. As a result of the events of Book of Death #4, the events of the Book of the Geomancer didn't happen. The same thing happened in original Valiant... Seleski destroyed the universe and re-created it, with changes. Erica Pierce wanted to set things "right" and destroy the universe again, because that's what "really happened" (or happened first). Do we think that Darque will give up his goal of becoming the most powerful ever? According to the Book of the Geomancer, he succeeded. According to Book of Death #4, he didn't. It's likely that Darque will want to set things "right" and bring all that destruction (again). Whether the future was changed, or whether the Book of Death #4 timeline becomes "canon" is yet to be seen. Everything we've seen about the future (apart from the exact events of the Book of the Geomancer) can still be the future... because there's a lot of time between now and then. It could still be the Book of the Geomancer timeline if things are "set back", the Book of Death #4 timeline if things actually changed, or some-future-event-Erica-Pierce-style timeline... but the exact path to the future we're reading in Rai isn't set in stone. Things are already happening in 4001 stories, but how we actually got there isn't clear.

[Keith]

If you're asking whether all of the events we see in the Book of the Geomancer excerpt will be undone if Gilad is successful, the answer is no. Many of the things in those excerpt pages - I know this from being in the writers' room at Valiant—are going to happen at some point in the future, whether they be in a series that I write, like X-O Manowar, or in another series. Other things are more like toys that I'm putting in the toy box, so others can pick them up and play with them at some point if they choose.

[Brapbrap]

the teases in issue 1 like the gin-gr fleet or sunlight on snow meeting helix will of course happen, the darque future is IMO not happening.

[dornwolf]

From where I'm sitting the Book of Death main book was telling the story of Tama's future. This is the timeline where Gilad got Tama from in the Valiant (Better than just the tada excuse of The Valiant anyway)

Darque will be back

Sadly no Shadowman

However if used correctly we have an answer for why Jack's back, he's free.

[GammaJosh]

I can't decide if Darque getting turned into a tree is really cool and interesting, or the lamest *SQUEE* thing of all time. I guess it will depend on how future writers handle it. In the meantime, I'm asking why the other heroes aren't applying horror movie logic and burning that *SQUEE* tree down before Darque can regenerate himself!

Also, I wouldn't strictly say this affects the "dead is dead" theory, as the rules don't really apply to one with the word "Eternal" in his name, and being turned into a tree does not necessarily mean one is dead. ;0)

[jxm640]

I always likes to think of stuff in the Fall of books as destiny, with the book of Geomancer showing the most logical route to get there.

I also think that Darque is not "The Corrupted One" and a grown up Daniel will teach himself enough magic to become "Corrupted".

[pixierosa]

I enjoyed this series. It was not as flashy as some of the Fall Of books, but it stands on its own as a story and character piece. We learned quite a bit about Gilad, getting to view him in another light. He's more human now than ever before.

As for the future not happening as laid out, I agree with Greg that it may still happen. Even in the Geomancer book, they reference that the corrupted one will rise again and again to try to destroy the earth, each time after it has renewed itself. So it may not have been successful this time, but Darque or someone with similar aims will definitely try to destroy it again.

As for the tree Darque, I'm surprised Mambo didn't trim a bit off and smoke it. She's one to watch; she's not a good guy, but she won't side with Darque because she will never accept being under anyone else's control ever again.

[Keith]

Read it again last night, and I'm left with the feeling that this is more of the "time is a river" type scenario. You can throw a rock in it, diverting the flow, but the river is still going to flow in the same direction. Some things might not happen, but some things definitely still will... we just need to wait and see. I think Tama pretty much sums that up on the last page.

Wish I could find the white board shot with the sticky notes that Dinesh posted several months back. I'm thinking that if it was on that board, then it's something they are planning on.

[Stringer]

i think the fall of... oneshots are actually canon but they still mislead people and made it sound like the glimpses in the book of death mini were canon when they werent

You do realize "The Fall Of" one-shots are meant to show us future death of characters before Tama was sent back in time, right? Those one-shots show us what their fates would have been if Anni Padda didn't send her back in time. Her very presence in the past reshapes the future.

And frankly, imo there would be no fun in knowing exactly how and when each character would die... I feel that'd take away alot of suspense.

[Stringer]

That said overall BoD was quite a big let down for me, Venditti is my least favorite writer on Valiant... the reason why "the Fall Of" tie-ins were so good is because he didn't write them. I really don't like his writing style.

Sigh, if only Dysart, Lemire or Kindt wrote this instead... in concept the event had a lot of potential. But he took a dump all over it.

[Brapbrap]

i think the fall of... oneshots are actually canon but they still mislead people and made it sound like the glimpses in the book of death mini were canon when they werent

You do realize "The Fall Of" one-shots are meant to show us future death of characters before Tama was sent back in time, right? Those one-shots show us what their fates would have been if Anni Padda didn't send her back in time. Her very presence in the past reshapes the future.

And frankly, imo there would be no fun in knowing exactly how and when each character would die... I feel that'd take away alot of suspense.

i disagree, i think they're canon. none of them acknowledge all of the darque stuff in the averted bad future. how would ninjak or livewire or saana survive in that timeline?

[Bl00dsh0t]

I liked the Tama/Darque battle but would like to see Darque a more formidable foe in the future (presuming he escapes from his earthly confines) - so far we've seen an inexperienced Shadowman defeat him and now Tama.

#1 promised so much for this mini but for me, the core story didn't deliver all that much. Two issues would've been better, there felt like too much filler in #2 and #3 while chunks of this issue read as set material to Wrath of the Eternal Warrior and the Operation Deadside arc.

The Fall Of... books were all very good as was LOG but I'd be giving this 2/5 - not quite an average read.

[Blood of Heroes]

i think the fall of... oneshots are actually canon but they still mislead people and made it sound like the glimpses in the book of death mini were canon when they werent

You do realize "The Fall Of" one-shots are meant to show us future death of characters before Tama was sent back in time, right? Those one-shots show us what their fates would have been if Anni Padda didn't send her back in time. Her very presence in the past reshapes the future.

And frankly, imo there would be no fun in knowing exactly how and when each character would die... I feel that'd take away alot of suspense.

i disagree, i think they're canon. none of them acknowledge all of the darque stuff in the averted bad future. how would ninjak or livewire or saana survive in that timeline?

I'm with Brapbrap.

[jmatt]

I'll admit to be a little confused about the Books. Somehow or other, I was assuming that the Book of Death was the Book of the Geomancer. It's not? So who has the BoG and did we see it anywhere in this arc?

I'll have to reread the thing in one sitting I guess.

I was hoping to see some kind of transmogrification of Tama for the final battle scene, which I agree was underwhelming. It needed a little more "Feel my Power!" oomph.

And while I liked the event overall, I dislike big timey-whimey storyarcs that leave me wondering "What does it all mean?". Please, spell it out for me. Am I forgetting, or did we actually see the confrontation on BoD #1 with Hulkshot and all the other characters?

[Phoenix8008]

I'll admit to be a little confused about the Books. Somehow or other, I was assuming that the Book of Death was the Book of the Geomancer. It's not? So who has the BoG and did we see it anywhere in this arc?

I'll have to reread the thing in one sitting I guess.

I was hoping to see some kind of transmogrification of Tama for the final battle scene, which I agree was underwhelming. It needed a little more "Feel my Power!" oomph.

And while I liked the event overall, I dislike big timey-whimey storyarcs that leave me wondering "What does it all mean?". Please, spell it out for me. Am I forgetting, or did we actually see the confrontation on BoD #1 with Hulkshot and all the other characters?

I think the 'Book of Death' she's been reading from IS the Book of the Geomancer... from 4001. There is another one somewhere in the present day where Kay left it I guess.

[BugsySig]

I'll admit to be a little confused about the Books. Somehow or other, I was assuming that the Book of Death was the Book of the Geomancer. It's not? So who has the BoG and did we see it anywhere in this arc?

I'll have to reread the thing in one sitting I guess.

I was hoping to see some kind of transmogrification of Tama for the final battle scene, which I agree was underwhelming. It needed a little more "Feel my Power!" oomph.

And while I liked the event overall, I dislike big timey-whimey storyarcs that leave me wondering "What does it all mean?". Please, spell it out for me. Am I forgetting, or did we actually see the confrontation on BoD #1 with Hulkshot and all the other characters?

I think the 'Book of Death' she's been reading from IS the Book of the Geomancer... from 4001. There is another one somewhere in the present day where Kay left it I guess.

Agreed.

Here's my take on it though...assuming Time works the way Ivar has described, everything Gilad does in the future ALWAYS happened. He sent Tama back with the book because he knew he sent Tama back with the book. He knew sending her back would lead to the events of "Book of Death" (the series, not the stories Tama is reading from), and its quite possible he even invented (or had Tama or another Geomancer invent) the stories in them as motivation for his past self.

Meanwhile, the "Fall of" books are glimpses into the actual future of the VU.

Or not...who knows

[Keith]

I'll admit to be a little confused about the Books. Somehow or other, I was assuming that the Book of Death was the Book of the Geomancer. It's not? So who has the BoG and did we see it anywhere in this arc?

I'll have to reread the thing in one sitting I guess.

I was hoping to see some kind of transmogrification of Tama for the final battle scene, which I agree was underwhelming. It needed a little more "Feel my Power!" oomph.

And while I liked the event overall, I dislike big timey-whimey storyarcs that leave me wondering "What does it all mean?". Please, spell it out for me. Am I forgetting, or did we actually see the confrontation on BoD #1 with Hulkshot and all the other characters?

I think the 'Book of Death' she's been reading from IS the Book of the Geomancer... from 4001. There is another one somewhere in the present day where Kay left it I guess.

Agreed.

Here's my take on it though...assuming Time works the way Ivar has described, everything Gilad does in the future ALWAYS happened. He sent Tama back with the book because he knew he sent Tama back with the book. He knew sending her back would lead to the events of "Book of Death" (the series, not the stories Tama is reading from), and its quite possible he even invented (or had Tama or another Geomancer invent) the stories in them as motivation for his past self.

Meanwhile, the "Fall of" books are glimpses into the actual future of the VU.

Or not...who knows

I like that, Bugsy.

Present day Gilad is motivated to fight and die (kinda) because the Book foretold such a horrible future. Future Gilad has the Book deliberately written in such a way so that when he sends Tama back it will lead to the motivation of his younger self to ultimately confront Darque. Possibly that one confrontation and defeat of Darque serves to prevent Darque from ever achieving his true power in years to come.

[BugsySig]

I'll admit to be a little confused about the Books. Somehow or other, I was assuming that the Book of Death was the Book of the Geomancer. It's not? So who has the BoG and did we see it anywhere in this arc?

I'll have to reread the thing in one sitting I guess.

I was hoping to see some kind of transmogrification of Tama for the final battle scene, which I agree was underwhelming. It needed a little more "Feel my Power!" oomph.

And while I liked the event overall, I dislike big timey-whimey storyarcs that leave me wondering "What does it all mean?". Please, spell it out for me. Am I forgetting, or did we actually see the confrontation on BoD #1 with Hulkshot and all the other characters?

I think the 'Book of Death' she's been reading from IS the Book of the Geomancer... from 4001. There is another one somewhere in the present day where Kay left it I guess.

Agreed.

Here's my take on it though...assuming Time works the way Ivar has described, everything Gilad does in the future ALWAYS happened. He sent Tama back with the book because he knew he sent Tama back with the book. He knew sending her back would lead to the events of "Book of Death" (the series, not the stories Tama is reading from), and its quite possible he even invented (or had Tama or another Geomancer invent) the stories in them as motivation for his past self.

Meanwhile, the "Fall of" books are glimpses into the actual future of the VU.

Or not...who knows

I like that, Bugsy.

Present day Gilad is motivated to fight and die (kinda) because the Book foretold such a horrible future. Future Gilad has the Book deliberately written in such a way so that when he sends Tama back it will lead to the motivation of his younger self to ultimately confront Darque. Possibly that one confrontation and defeat of Darque serves to prevent Darque from ever achieving his true power in years to come.

Its a "Bootstrap Paradox" for those Whovians out there (Google it)

[GammaJosh]

I liked the Tama/Darque battle but would like to see Darque a more formidable foe in the future (presuming he escapes from his earthly confines) - so far we've seen an inexperienced Shadowman defeat him and now Tama.

THIS! I thought Darque was removed from the board too quickly after only 5 issues of Shadowman. Now they've brought him back only to remove him again after only 2 issues! This is a character that should be simmering in the background, manipulating events through long story arcs, and when he does come out of the shadows and show his hand, he should make a much more epic and memorable appearance than getting offed again after a 5 minute battle. He should be Doctor Doom, not Paste Pot Pete.

[Thomas]

Have to play Captain Obvious:
Book of Death is to Gilad what The Valiant was for Bloodshot. They are a setup for a new ongoing.

[agent_graves]

overall i think this series wasn't that great, all that happened was a kind of forced 'heroes fighting heroes' fight and a VERY underwhelming end confrontation

+1 The One Shots & BOD:LOTG were much better...