4001 AD 1:100 B&W

[jmatt]

I do think the endless amount of variants do start to turn off the fan base at some point.

Mkb28

Yeah, it's weird psychological consumer dynamic. I agree with the notion that if you don't like the idea of variants, well then just don't buy them. To each, his own - spend your money any way you please.

But I will also agree that in some way, conceptually, it bothers me. I can't quite put my finger on the why.

[FormerReader]

"Trolling" - nice. I don't think that means what you think it means.

Stephenson has some good points. Out of the many problems he pointed out, his company is only not guilty of one of them - exclusive variants. And that's just recently. And they'll still do exclusive variants on trades, so how is that any different really? I personally am much more bothered by late books, Image's specialty, than I am about variants. I have the choice to buy variants or not, I can't buy a book that hasn't been released yet.

I know what trolling means...and anyone thinking you're not being made to look like suckers for buying variants are completely ignorant of the industry. Variants aren't gifts, they aren't fan service items for cool factor. No...they are there for publishers amusement to see how many suckers they can get to buy a comic with a different cover. They are short term boost in sales so publishers can have some pocket money.

Variants are fool's gold. They ARE trolling you, whether you want to admit it or not. There's no sound reason to publish a comic with multiple covers, nor are there any rational reason to buy multiple copies of the same book as if they are collectors items when clearly they aren't, no matter how low the print run is. There's so many variants out there that there's never going a rare one.

You must be a blast to hang out with at a party. I can hear it now "This party sucks. You want to know why?"

[buff-beardo]

I do think the endless amount of variants do start to turn off the fan base at some point.

Mkb28

Yeah, it's weird psychological consumer dynamic. I agree with the notion that if you don't like the idea of variants, well then just don't buy them. To each, his own - spend your money any way you please.

But I will also agree that in some way, conceptually, it bothers me. I can't quite put my finger on the why.

I agree. To each their own yet I feel they are ultimately detrimental to the industry I love.

[DirtbagSailor]

Yeah, it's weird psychological consumer dynamic. I agree with the notion that if you don't like the idea of variants, well then just don't buy them. To each, his own - spend your money any way you please.

But I will also agree that in some way, conceptually, it bothers me. I can't quite put my finger on the why.

This topic has jumped up a bit recently, and I think I'm going to do a bit of research on the topic and make an entirely new discussion thread.

[mkb28]

I do think the endless amount of variants do start to turn off the fan base at some point.

Mkb28

Yeah, it's weird psychological consumer dynamic. I agree with the notion that if you don't like the idea of variants, well then just don't buy them. To each, his own - spend your money any way you please.

But I will also agree that in some way, conceptually, it bothers me. I can't quite put my finger on the why.

Jmatt, this is a great way to say it. The easy answer is just don't buy the variants, but the collector inside of me wants to have them all. Early VEI releases only had a few variants to collect and was reasonable, but now there are multiple issues even beyond the #1 releases. Why does A&A 3 have a 1:50 variant? Another frustration is when I look at this month's Previews, the highest incentive variant is just another cover in the set without the inks. You are not even getting a new cover to collect.

Maybe it is just the fact that I am getting older and my perspective is changing, but I kind of miss the old Valiant days when the only variant to collect was a Gold book.

Mkb28

[DirtbagSailor]

I have spent the past few hours reading and researching Variants and human behavior (with similar items).

I won't be writing about it in a new article or new discussion thread because it would be quite time consuming to cover all of the aspects.

Suffice it to say that different conflicted opinions exist on both sides of the fence, and neither is right; neither is wrong.

• In the 1980's most kids were riding bikes and skateboards around town chewing bubble gum, collecting baseball cards, and reading comicbooks. There were enough normal sales to actually support the industry.
  
  In the 2000's most kids were playing video games, surfing the internet, and watching movies. They buy comicbooks, but likely account for a very small percentage of sales. I've never actually sold a comic to a kid!

I honestly see the logical statement of "if you don't like the idea of variants, well then just don't buy them" as it is quite valid. However, for some this just won't do because there are additional factors that are in play. (For me) it is a complex issue, since I understand that variant sales help justify retailers in ordering books from new publishers when they otherwise would not. This increased likeliness of financial gain for a retailer (since someone will likely buy the variant) allows creators and publishers more freedom to take creative risks that otherwise might not be taken. Collectors who are willing to pay can can do so, and those who do not care much for the variants, (presumably) don't need to buy them and can still easily enjoy the stories and/or artwork.

On the other-hand, it is difficult to, as a collector, purchase and/or locate each issue and/or variant for a title we like due to finical and/or availability realities. I would like to own one of each title, and variant in 9.8 SS condition; which would realistically be possible if there only one cover for each (with an occasional Gold or Annual). However, it is difficult for even the most obsessed collector to accomplish this goal today. I have just completed a full Divinity collection (which can be viewed: HERE) which was a four-issue mini-series. As you can see, my set contains about 26 books (mostly variants and later printings) and will likely contain two more books in the next few months. For a title that has, say, 25 books (with 2-3 variants for each issue; as well as 15+ variants for the 1st issue; and a super rare Gold issue) it can be a major undertaking. This is not to say it can't or shouldn't be done, however, it gives even the most obsessive and dedicated collector a moment of pause before attempting to do so.

Some MBTI personality types (there are 16 types. Learn more HERE or take the test HERE) simply cannot stand the idea of 100% completion NOT being realistically achievable in a collection (of any type) and it seriously drives them up the wall. The words "if you don't like the idea of variants, well then just don't buy them" will only be met with a from some, because on one level they know this to be true, but on another level it doesn't matter if it is true, they want completion and the system is (in their eyes) annoyingly designed in such a way that such a goal may not be financially and/or realistically possible.

Then there are social realities. We are all (on some level) involved in competition of life (whether we know it or not). It is very frustrating (for some) to see others have what they themselves might not. Even the very idea can be frustrating, as it taps into our primal desire to collect resources (food, cars, stones, women, weapons, comics, and more). It's biologically hard-wired into us to want what is perceived to be rare and valuable, even if it really isn't. Diamonds are not as scarce as some might think, but a tightly controlled supply and market has changed their value (or the perception of their value). When many women announce their engagements, they showcase the ring and discuss the aspects that make it valuable (and perhaps more valuable than those possessed by other women) since it is a reflection (in a primal and shallow (but still quite real) way) of their worth. As a result, men pay for the socially accepted idea and/or feeling of worth and/or value, as opposed to the actual worth and/or value.

This can (and does) create hate and/or discontent. Someone possess something another does not — and that upsets them. Because they realize that life can be unfair, and that some people can have things or do things in life that others can’t. Perhaps they even desire what is owned, but don’t quite know how they themselves can realistically own one. When they can not figure why they lack the things they lack, or how they can get the things they lack, they become frustrated or angry.

Really, there is no answer. Wars and revolutions have started over as much. Political ideologies are built on this often enough, and humanity is split on how to deal with it.

It's not the variants that are the issue; its what they represent to some, and what they represent to others.

Sorry for all that rambling, but hopefully some sense was made (at least for discussion).

[eschnit]

Dirtbagsailor be on point. Near perfect explanation of the phenomenon in my opinion. Watches is a whole other realm. High $$$ hobby. Perhaps like trying to collect all of the key issues from comic books. It never ends and could drain the pocketbook of anyone but the wealthiest of the wealthy. As for me, watches is financially imprudent for my taste. I'd end up spending $100s of thousands that I don't really have to spend. Women is a whole other subject, not a collectible, I love women, not objects, but perhaps there's a competitive ugly nature to dating the best catches, and having them attached. Done with that too, as I'm engaged, and don't cheat or have any interest in doing so. So comics it is. I loved Valiant 25 years ago. The price point is doable, the upside is there with the movies. For now, I'm all-in. I'll slow roll the variants a little, until Figure out more of what I really want, and understand more of recent history, and the likely long term of them. For now, I'm hooked, and enjoying it immensely. I'm not the personality type that needs every issue in a run, though there are certain ones I have to admit it bothers me not to have. Thanks for your insight.

[Phantom]

DBS.

Such a great post, other say with elegance what I think- but not convey in words.
Thankyou for such a great post.


On a personal level your comment on women and diamonds, put it into perspective and made me laugh. I will not tell the whole story here (ask me in person). My wife wanted semiprecious coloured stones in white gold. Semiprecious stones are not usually set in white gold, usually in silver. So in the end she decided on 12 diamonds in platinum.

As a stupid male I never understood why, I am on volume 137 of 723 of understanding women. This helps my understanding of collecting comics AND my wife.

[Elveen]

Buy what you want, let your $$$ do the talking.

Comic book companies are trying to make money, period. Loyalty and hey owe it to their fans , sure, but they gotta make can first.

If they feel they need to release 50 covers of a book to make money and keep putting out the books. Do it.

When you go to a resturant and by a soda. How much do you think that soda costs the company??? Is any one up in arms about it? Maybe. You know what I do??? I drink water. I don't buy soda. I still like to go out and eat, but I NEVER get a drink. Water for me. (Sometimes I do buy a drink, but super rarely. I just can't bring myself to do it. ).

Are variants good for the industry? I think so.
Do I want ever Valiant book to have multiple covers and variants? No. But if that is what Valiant needs to do. Then do it.

There ARE some negitive effects of variants on the back issue market, but it is what it is.

The bigger problem WE should be up in arms about is .... Where is the new generation of comic readers??? That's what we should be getting the pitch forks out over.

[DirtbagSailor]

The bigger problem WE should be up in arms about is .... Where is the new generation of comic readers??? That's what we should be getting the pitch forks out over.

This.

[mkb28]

The bigger problem WE should be up in arms about is .... Where is the new generation of comic readers??? That's what we should be getting the pitch forks out over.

This.

Speaking of new readers, comic book companies are not making it easy to pick up new readers and the myriad of covers adds to the confusion. Add in multiple printings, incentive ratio variants, retailer variants and where is a new reader to start.

A good friend of mine received a Darth Vader #4 BAM variant from his kids for Christmas and it kind of re-ignited his passion for comic reading and collecting. The kids paid nearly $20.00 for the darn thing. I was with him in a local store recently and was trying to help him pick up some of the back issues. There were so many choices and multiple printings that he was getting frustrated. I tried to tell him to just buy the trade and be done with it, but he left with a #1 4th printing and some other variant covers. Even the retailer said the variants are a giant mess.

As more and more of the older collectors drop off, it will be difficult to attract new readers. Offering 10 covers for a single issue will not help to attract them. Especially offering a 1:100 variant for $100+ that will be worth $25.00 on eBay in a few weeks is not going to do it either.

My best advice is to buy the trades and invest your variant money into the Vanguard Total Stock Market Index Fund. You won't regret your decision.

Mkb28

[cray_ws]

You must be a blast to hang out with at a party. I can hear it now "This party sucks. You want to know why?"

It's nice that you have opinions about what I might be like as person. I'm grateful for it. Thanks so much for pointing out irrelevant stuff. Kudos to your ability to make a subtle personal attack.

I honestly see the logical statement of "if you don't like the idea of variants, well then just don't buy them" as it is quite valid. However, for some this just won't do because there are additional factors that are in play. (For me) it is a complex issue, since I understand that variant sales help justify retailers in ordering books from new publishers when they otherwise would not. This increased likeliness of financial gain for a retailer (since someone will likely buy the variant) allows creators and publishers more freedom to take creative risks that otherwise might not be taken. Collectors who are willing to pay can can do so, and those who do not care much for the variants, (presumably) don't need to buy them and can still easily enjoy the stories and/or artwork.

What you wrote in bold is completely false. Variants in no way shape or form foster diverse retailership. By a large margin retailers avoid risks as much as they can because buying variants is only a profitable venture if they can sell as many as they can in the shortest span. There's only a handful of retailers that actually try to use the profits from variants to order different books. The vast majority of retailers order the same Marvel and DC variants, some take that very same profit and order more variants from Marvel and DC as opposed to spreading the diversity around. Take look at your local retailer....how much as it changed? After a year of variants you'd think they would have at least 10% of their shelves with non-Marvel/DC books. You'd think it would grow more diverse every year, but it doesn't because selling variant covers is more profitable than selling comic books.

On the other-hand, it is difficult to, as a collector, purchase and/or locate each issue and/or variant for a title we like due to finical and/or availability realities. I would like to own one of each title, and variant in 9.8 SS condition; which would realistically be possible if there only one cover for each (with an occasional Gold or Annual). However, it is difficult for even the most obsessed collector to accomplish this goal today. I have just completed a full Divinity collection (which can be viewed: HERE) which was a four-issue mini-series. As you can see, my set contains about 26 books (mostly variants and later printings) and will likely contain two more books in the next few months. For a title that has, say, 25 books (with 2-3 variants for each issue; as well as 15+ variants for the 1st issue; and a super rare Gold issue) it can be a major undertaking. This is not to say it can't or shouldn't be done, however, it gives even the most obsessive and dedicated collector a moment of pause before attempting to do so.

Some MBTI personality types (there are 16 types. Learn more HERE or take the test HERE) simply cannot stand the idea of 100% completion NOT being realistically achievable in a collection (of any type) and it seriously drives them up the wall. The words "if you don't like the idea of variants, well then just don't buy them" will only be met with a from some, because on one level they know this to be true, but on another level it doesn't matter if it is true, they want completion and the system is (in their eyes) annoyingly designed in such a way that such a goal may not be financially and/or realistically possible.

Then there are social realities. We are all (on some level) involved in competition of life (whether we know it or not). It is very frustrating (for some) to see others have what they themselves might not. Even the very idea can be frustrating, as it taps into our primal desire to collect resources (food, cars, stones, women, weapons, comics, and more). It's biologically hard-wired into us to want what is perceived to be rare and valuable, even if it really isn't. Diamonds are not as scarce as some might think, but a tightly controlled supply and market has changed their value (or the perception of their value). When many women announce their engagements, they showcase the ring and discuss the aspects that make it valuable (and perhaps more valuable than those possessed by other women) since it is a reflection (in a primal and shallow (but still quite real) way) of their worth. As a result, men pay for the socially accepted idea and/or feeling of worth and/or value, as opposed to the actual worth and/or value.

Way to go in blaming the consumer for this, as if it's their problem and not the retailers and publishers.

[DirtbagSailor]

Clearly a troll; however, I'll feed slightly.

Consumers have control over what they choose to, as well as choose not to, buy. They are responsible for their spending habits the same as you and the same as I.

My educational background in psychology, and specifically in personality theory, supports my statement about how different types of people are more prone to having a completionist mindset and/or drive regardless of what you might like to believe. Also, I have had this exact same discussion with several consumers recently anyhow, which further supports it.

It's similar to what drives you to post a contrary opinion often, despite an overwhelming negative response to your posts. I suppose some attention (even negative) is better than loneliness.

[paradise]

^ I could not have said it better

[FormerReader]

You must be a blast to hang out with at a party. I can hear it now "This party sucks. You want to know why?"

It's nice that you have opinions about what I might be like as person. I'm grateful for it. Thanks so much for pointing out irrelevant stuff. Kudos to your ability to make a subtle personal attack.

It's not a personal attack. You complain about something every post you make. When all a person does is complain eventually people ignore them even when they may actually have a valid point. Pick your battles.

[jmatt]

I stated that in some way, conceptually, the idea of so many variants bothers me.

It's not that I can't own them all, I don't care about that one whit.

What bothers me is that the state of the industry makes them necessary; that it needs to rely on, for lack of a less offensive word, gimmicks, in order to remain viable.

My LCS doesn't get much in the way of variants. But I will usually pick up a 1:10 or 1:20 instead of the regular cover simply because it helps them and Valiant.

[Dr Noel]

I was just talking to a fellow board member the other day about how our collecting habits have changed over the last 2-3 years. I used to collect all the variant covers for all the #1 issues and I even collected all the retailer variant covers on several titles. I think my appetite for variants started to change with the Wrath of the Eternal Warrior and the Book of Death books. I decided to buy all the issues from both series, but it was very discouraging to see the 1:60 variants selling on eBay for $15.00 soon after my purchase. I think that is when I said enough is enough and decided to quit wasting my money. Some of the variants hold thier value or even increase in value, but most decline in value very quickly.

Another reason my collecting habits have changed is my kids are approaching college age and the money could go to better use. So for now, I am transitioning over to trades and HC's and I am no longer buying the monthly issues. I am also selling off most of my slabs collection, with the exception of my VEI GOLD CGC 9.8 slabs.

I do think the endless amount of variants do start to turn off the fan base at some point.

Mkb28

+1

The variants became too much. First, I stopped the retailer variants. Then I figured if I'm not going to have a 'complete' collection anymore then why bother with the regular variants. Now I'm thinking about just going to trades too.

As a business model I don't see how this works. If VEI just kept churning out one variant an issue with a few more every so often and with new series I would still be the hardcore collector. But they kept pushing and now lost more of my money overall.

[nycjadie]

Personally, I like variants. It's likely I will never have them all, but I find that rewarding was well. Why collect something easy? If it was easy, I'd put it off for something that is not, and I wouldn't be buying regular or variant issues. I don't buy new DC or Marvel. Why? I can get a whole collection later at a fraction.

[bygranddesign]

I do think the endless amount of variants do start to turn off the fan base at some point.

Mkb28

Yeah, it's weird psychological consumer dynamic. I agree with the notion that if you don't like the idea of variants, well then just don't buy them. To each, his own - spend your money any way you please.

But I will also agree that in some way, conceptually, it bothers me. I can't quite put my finger on the why.

Because without the variants ... without the gimmicks ... without the events (that fosters more variants/more gimmicks) VEI (and most other publishers) would not be able to stay afloat

That's the conundrum.

You can make the case to someone who is frustrated with the variants -- hey just don't buy it if you don't like it!

But at the same time ... The reality is that VEI needs you/them to buy those variants or it would be very tough for them to stay profitable as a publisher, IMO

So beyond any psychological reasoning behind why customers buy variants ... is also this feeling that VEI needs this devoted type of loyalty that drives someone to buy a ridiculous amount of variants for a single comic book.

[DirtbagSailor]

It's how the industry works.

I love variants. I dislike too many variants.

But it is 100% truth that for the printed industry to continue in this digital age, it must adapt to survive. For children and grown men to have the ability to hold a new comicbook in their hands on a Wednesday morning, publishers and LCS's must survive.

Most readers and fans have adapted as well; this isn't to say that I am 100% happy with the way the game is played today. I long for a time when I can ride my bike to my LCS and buy the new book for $.75, then play baseball with the guys while trying to build up the courage to ask out Jessica Fontain. But those days are gone.

This is the new normal.

[Phantom]

I love variants. I dislike too many variants.

That sums it up for me.

Elveen wrote:
The bigger problem WE should be up in arms about is .... Where is the new generation of comic readers??? That's what we should be getting the pitch forks out over.

I think one dollar debuts are good, I wonder if their is any profit in it for the publishers.

Their is a group of kids at my daughters school, that always approach me to talk about comics. Their is only one of those kids who gets new comics off the shelf (his father buys them for him), others share the books I have given them ~ or go through charity shops, etc at 50p of £1 a piece.

The new generation of comic readers are going to read comics if they want to, but maybe not buy them new due to the cost, as well content.


Disney guided marvel to an all ages line with some of its characters. I think they are all self contained stories, as in full story in one issue. Its a good move, I wonder about the price? I actually do not kno the cover price / is it the same as the major books?


Now whos going to by the variant 4001 AD 1:100 B&W?

[Ramses818]

And just because I can allow me to throw in my two cents. I'm lucky to live in the San Fernando Valley on the West End to be more precise. I have more than a dozen stores within 20 miles of me. If anybody knows in LA 20 miles is not a big distance! LOL. Stores out here do sell variant covers. And the reason they do this is because it makes them money. Some stores out here deal only in new stock. Some deal only in old stock. Some you can walk into their store and they don't allow swearing of any kind or even loud disagreements, because they stock large assortment of kid comics. I have stores that whole regular signings, and other stores that have reading groups, some stores have date nights, and some stores have art tutorials for young aspiring artists. I too was one of the people who tried to collect every single cover. I found it fun going store to store looking for somewhere comic that I wanted. Now I can't quite afford as much but I still enjoy getting my favorite covers as they come out (Or when DBS doesn't out them as being very rare before I can buy hem on eBay! Lol). I am also a father of two very different teenagers. My son loves superheroes and action comics. My daughter loves the simple joys of a funny book, Be it Bee and puppy cat, or Garfield, or Archie's. My daughter would rather work at a booth with her favorite comic book company and chased down every variant. My son on the other hand is always relished being able to take in a few comics and pass them around his friends at school while they debate the latest episode of Dragonball Z that they've watched. For all the gloom and doom that everybody says the industry still survives. Even as bad as the 90s were, we still have new books coming out every week. Marvel didn't disappear, DC didn't disappear, and how many have started up since then? In this capitalistic world that we live in some stores will survive, some stores will close down, and some stores will thrive and expand. Will every variant be worth a fortune? Of course not but we don't read comic books because we all think we're going to be millionaires, and we certainly are collecting them with that in mind. Are there millionaire comic book collectors? Certainly seems to be. It seems it as people give more money they coming to collect those beautiful high dollar books. But just from my perspective and the perspective of those people that I have the pleasure of talking to on a weekly or monthly basis I would say that the industry still has a very bright future. Kind of like politics some people are going to say bad things some people are going to say good things but is just going to keep going on year after year. so what just say we all have fun? And I'll keep enjoying my favorite comic book RAI, and yes I can't wait for the deluxe hardcover!

[Ramses818]

Oh yeah I am totally trolling!

[Joshua]

I like variants but I am not doing shop variants anymore, unless I like it or get it in a package deal. There's too many. Ninjak and BSR had so many, hell, I still don't have every BSR 1 variant. Sadly, I wonder how Valiant would be in this marketplace without variants. Are there retailers who can't get enough sales who are ordering enough for a 1:20 for a customer or two?

[Phantom]

I did read you post Ramses, not nitpicking, just think the following stands out ~ that I would not expect.

. Some you can walk into their store and they don't allow swearing of any kind

I would not expect any store to allow swearing, no matter what they sold. (Ok, maybe a bar yes).

If variants keep the shops open, then OK. Just would hate the standard issue to be devalued and in $1 bins as shops over-order to sell the variant and dump stock ~ or left with excessive stock which may devalue the standard issue in the eyes of the retailer. But if it keeps the shops open, good luck to them.