WTB: Affordable Valiant (Are the '90s upon us?)

[unityshadowman]

I apologize as this is part rant and part reality check, but I was in the local brick and mortar comic shop over the weekend talking to a friend that runs their comic department who was commenting on the current state of comic industry. He described how people are walking away in droves from DC (starting with the New-52 debacle and then the Convergence mess), [and now] with DC's planned Rebirth it's negatively impacting sales DRAMATICALLY. He said people have just walked away from DC...they just don't care anymore and have no interest. As we are chatting, I'm thinking "hmmm, well at least I have my Valiant, woohoo!". He goes on and talks about how Marvel's reboot, post-Secret Wars have fallen flat, talent is fleeing Marvel, and people just don't care about the characters and stories anymore and are walking away. In depressed droves. And as we are chatting, I'm again thinking "hmmm, well at least I have my Valiant, woohoo!". He mentioned how he's seeing a huge decline across the board and doesn't feel very positive. We talked about the 90's implosion, how special covers and speculation contributed to the bust, then reflected on how it seems the variant covers (:100, :200, :500, etc. are the new "special covers") and "first-appearances" speculation is all the rage, and has been for quite a while...which led to the logical question it seems a lot of people are asking, and have been bumping around for a few years - Are we going to see a bust soon similar to the dreaded '90s?

I have to admit, I sprinkle a little DC, Marvel, Dark Horse, Image, etc. with my Valiant, but I'm a Valiant fan through and through. I buy everything. Every. Single. Cover. Every. Single. Trade. Everything everything. V1, Acclaim, VEI. As a completionist, like many of you, I can't only not wait to read the next storyline, check out the upcoming, gorgeous art that Valiant is producing, am happy in supporting a company that drives quality...but I also take great joy and pride in the medium for the collectible/collectibility aspect. I'm not in it sell or turn a profit, I'm in it because I love the craft and hobby, and enjoy the storytelling method overall.

Well, I wanted to lay down some context for where I'm going with this. After our conversation, I get home and start checking the June Solicitations in the April Previews and my jaw hits the floor. Not only am I seeing a one-sie/two-sie (:50) cover that I can expect with every month from Valiant, but June will be hitting with fury. Ridiculous financial fury. I'd call it a Magnus-Chop to the gut and pocket, but I won't go there. I simply can't believe it. Is Valiant now drinking the same kool-aid as larger publishers? Have they grossly underestimated the monthly impact with all of their June solicitations? Are they issuing loans for the month of June, so we can support 'em?

As a completionist, here are the big books that are gonna hit the pocket book with full force:

1) BLOODSHOT REBORN #14 CVR H 50 COPY INCV B&W SKETCH GIORELLO
2) BLOODSHOT REBORN #14 CVR I 120 COPY INCV LINEWIDE LEMIRE
3) X-O MANOWAR #47 CVR G 50 COPY INCV LEMIRE
4) 4001 AD #2 (OF 4) CVR G 50 COPY INCV INTERLOCK CVR SOOK
5) 4001 AD #2 (OF 4) CVR H 100 COPY INCV B&W INTERLOCK CVR SOOK
6) A&A #4 CVR F 50 COPY INCV B&W LAFUENTE

The Total for these (6) bad boys from a large supplier...$420. Four Hundred and Twenty Dollars. Yeah.

In case you're interested in what those mega-variants are gonna cost WITH all those other floppies for the month of June: $745.43

I didn't mention that the above total didn't include the (3) trades offered....so, yeah...that kicks the grand total to $825.70

I never thought of our hobby or passion as a cheap endeavor, but it left me wondering if this is indeed the moment it kicks me over and I join all of those other people just walking away. Could this be what makes me walk away from Valiant? I actually lost sleep last night stewing over this. Is anyone else feeling a little outrage or hopelessness with the future of Valiant and the medium as a whole? I was there for the '90s implosion and saw respectable dealers going from selling coupon Harbingers from $40 a piece to $5 overnight. Five bucks. Not to say this will happen today, this month, or this year, but it feels like the corporate toe-dip to see what will break the consumer is starting to hit. As a dedicated fan and buyer, I'm feeling the burden of what the market will bear and I'm heavily debating shrugging it off and just walking away like the burned DC and Marvel fans. Anyone else feeling the same? I'm seeing other people dropping, for a myriad of reasons I'm sure...but is anyone in the same boat of contemplation?

Time is Not Absolute, and the Budget is Finite,
unityshadowman/JC

[eschnit]

There is a lot that goes into it, and I'm not the expert. I would say there are plenty of forces tugging in different directions, and more than likely the powers that be are aware. In larger outfits like Marvel and DC, you probably have trouble changing course quickly because the power is diffused. At Valiant, not only do they have vision and good leadership, but they can likely shift their practices at a moments notice. The only way to support a $1000/month habit in perpetuity is to have a lot of discretionary income. Most folks/fans are not in that boat. I'm sure Valiant recognizes this, but readership is not super high in comics these days. The money will likely be made from other mediums, movies, tv, digital, maybe even action figures, etc., as opposed to the actual books. But the books, new books, are close to a necessity, and where the passion lies. A relatively small upstart, which is how we have to look at Valiant, has to figure a business model to sustain short and medium term. If there's a better solution, I'm sure they'd be more than open to it. It's kind of like complaining about the justice system. It's far less than perfect, but where's the better one? The publishing has to be sustainable or there is no publishing. Selling 50,000 copies/month at $3 gross per copy is not a business model that works. So the only options until there are other streams of revenue are more copies or more $ per copy or a combination of the two. It's the lesser of two evils. That's my two cents.

[Elveen]

Those number for completists are staggering.

For me the answer is simple, buy what you want or / can afford.

But I decided a long time ago that I could not get every cover...... yet.

So I guess the issue is, what is your comfortable "yet"?

[nonplayer]

I limit my self to 35.00 a month in comics that's across the board. I don't buy everything Valiant I buy what interests me. If Valiant made more stuff that interests me I'd buy more. I also stick to ongoing comics more even if I'm not 100% enjoying it. I'm less easily to be tricked into buying four issue arcs. I only will if it interests me. Variants a long time ago I knew I would be unable to compete so I limit my variants to a few a year as it stands now. I don't belive in buying 6 of one book. Or 10 or even 3 if I buy variants It's one rare one and one regular copy to read. If squee hits the fan like in the 90's all our variants could be worth nothing. I don't buy stuff to lose money so if My stuff is worth nothing I won't continue investing and that would end up lowering comics I buy. I was very mad with the end of the on going titles I almost didn't continue with Imperium or bloodshot Reborn (glad I did) but now Imperium is ending so I feel led astray with promises of another ongoing. It's not an ongoing if it ends and each time makes me less willing to invest long term Into any comic. So far the walking dead is is a picture perfect title for me. Bad move ending xo really bad move. Also with the usa dollar as it is paying plus 30-40% more than my American friends is BULL Squee and I'm probably passing on Divinity variants all together.
It is such a load of carp that from one week to the next I have to pay more for something just because it comes from the usa it is not worth any more than par but still I have to work harder save more to buy variants sorry not going to happen I'm not paying 130.00 for something that cost 100.00 screw that.

[nycjadie]

I have a virtual comic business that supports my Valiant habit. This weekend, I was thinking of finally throwing in the towel. The more success Valiant has, and the more stuff they produce, the greater the likelihood I'll stop being a completionist. There are likely very few Marvel completionists out there, if any. So too will be with Valiant, if they head in that direction. Not just that, but I have job/family stuff going on, where I may just have to bow out for awhile. No big deal. As much as I'd be bummed, I totally understand, and I can always pick up the mantle at some point down the line.

I will say, if you can swing getting the books while the distribution is so low, I think you'll be rewarded long term, especially if the entertainment ventures are successful.

[Aram]

This is the only thing that worries me.. The variants continuing to knock out VEI's most fervent collector's.

The bottom line come's down to this.. Can VEI continue publishing the same quality with only 2-3000 print runs on 9 titles. If so, then the continual loss to the bottom line of completists will not matter and we will nearly all be fairly happy with the books, just not the collect-ability of every issue.

I believe there is enough fandom to continuously support between 2-4000 copies of each title regardless of movies or anything else down the road. Other companies ranked lower than VEI somehow stay afloat publishing this low. So if VEI can do it too then it has nothing to worry about with completists continually jumping ship now and those that pick up these super rare variants will likely pay off down the road like owning rare acclaims today.

Personally I'd rather have 1:10 variants / 1:20 variants only with occasional 1:50 1:100 for number 1 issues. That is fairly obtainable in my opinion. Having so many variants is not. If I'm not mistaken VEI has already blown away the amount of books published jointly by valiant/acclaim that spanned almost a full decade.

I personally would rather see Exclusive limited signed and embossed "Prints" of the variant covers, instead of the massive amount of wasted space and resources by having the same book on a different cover that will likely never be read. The "Plus" editions at least gave you extra content!

make the Covers 1:10 only to help sales and then add a 1:20 and 1:50 embossed and/or signed limited edition Print to take the place of the other variants. You create a second even more tempting unique collectible market and probably tempt more people to stay on the comic completist bandwagon because they can get the comics and not have to worry about the more expensive and exclusive prints (for the moment ).

[Funcha]

Being a completist is virtually impossible these days unless you have unlimited funds. For my own sanity, and because I have a very limited budget, I get the cover I like the most of each Valiant title (rarely ever get the 1:20 and up) and call it a day. $435 to get every cover in June? F that!

[AnarchoMambo]

It appears to me that a reasonable approach might be to simply reject the B&W sketch variants. Saves you something near $200 in June! Even though I have fallen prey to seeking each and every one of these thus far, I'm not sure that I will consider them as canonical covers in the future (as I do now for retail variants). The detail in Lafuente's Wrath of the Eternal Warrior and Archer & Armstrong Sketch covers are prime examples of one artist's inked covers being way better anyway. The same holds true for Sook's 4001 covers in my opinion, but might fully remain to be seen until the 1st physical issue arrives. But there is something about Larosa's Unity/Ninjak/Bloodsot B&W covers, I have to admit...

[Aram]

At this point I don't buy any floppies when they come out unless it is a cover or book that I really love or am interested in. I will wait and pick them up cheap later or not at all.

Even trades are extremely hard to stay on top of so I tend to wait for a great sale and/or pick them up at the valiant booth once or twice a year.

The only things that caught me recently was legend of the geomancers and the faith cgc cover.

[depluto]

Are we going to see a bust soon similar to the dreaded '90s?

One reason why we won't is that comic books sales are already so low. Even a publisher like Valiant would kill for post-bust numbers from the 1990s.

But I hear you on the variants. I gave up from the get-go, but I buy one or two a week if they are in really nice condition.

[rentu]

Man those numbers are really, really brutal when you see the math. I have been thinking about cutting back again recently as I do every few months when a new title with 20+ covers comes out. I read a lot of other indy books outside of Valiant so when you add the two together would I rather have 10 titles to read or 10 copies of the same cover? I quit already once a year and a half ago and have only maybe 4 or 5 books from the six months that I stopped to be filled back in (plus a couple of oldies) so it's going to be extremely painful to stop. When I did it before it was because I couldn't afford it, this time it's do I want to? I went from completest to 1 cover per title as I didn't see any sense in getting some variants (just my thing). I have a lot of thinking to do over the next week or so as I fill out my Previews, I really don't think I can commit to that much money for what is essentially 8 or 9 stories?

Actually that didn't take too long...I am out, just no way I can justify spending 2/3 of my rent on Valiant books for one month. Looks like the #4 spot in the top 25 will become someone else's rather soon

[Ricomortis]

Damn! Ya'll be dropping like flies!

Try collecting stuff in 9.8.

You don't drop something you love because you can't have it all. That is crazy. I am a HUGE Valiant collector obviously, and even I don't get everything. I don't even try.... Because its ridiculous. I get what I really really like, and make sacrifices on the other stuff.

All this negativity isn't helping the company, but I understand the frustration....

Oh... Got a great example... So... Looking at my books I need to get slabbed. (Scratches head) and realizes that there are like 2000 books to send in to get graded. Yea.... That ain't ever happening! So I go thru the books and put ones I am not collecting in the registry in Full backs and Mylites. 9.8 books still in my collection... Just not "verified". So now I have it down to about 1500 books. Going to repeat the process and see what happens.

But basically I'm not "giving up on these titles I love, just not going to spend the money to have them graded. I have "tweaked" my goals to fit my budget is all.

Never give up! That is not an option in my book!

[rentu]

I just personally really enjoyed being able to have a "complete" collection as a goal without going into the poor house. But the insane number of covers just has made it impossible if I am realistic about my budget. If it's a number 1 or say 25 or some really special event I can see having a few extra covers but when every title is getting 3 or 4 basic covers and a 1:10 and 1:20 it's just too much money week after week. I shouldn't be stressed out about how I am going to pay for all my Valiant books every week and it is getting to be that way. Add in all the convention books and crap like the bar release that cost me near $100 to keep my collection going and it's just kind of losing it's fun I am not feeling the way many are about the stories but I see their point as well, I just read the last year of most of the titles and loved every minute of it

[ckb]

The only thing I find strange about the original post is that he made it this far getting "everything". I'm sure there have been other $500 months. I gave up like month 6.

You have to go into "collect what you like" mode, not really much choice.

[jaspersk]

Yes i added all the key april preorders
To my dcbs cart and saw a whopping $700+
Including Island retailer bloodshot?
Well Im not ordering more than 4 dc books
Marvel has been scaling back on incentive
Variants and market is too hot and their books
Are crap. Lots of other stuff is wait til they
Come out and are at a fair price point
Otherwise dont buy. I hope Valiant doesnt
Keep up the 1:100 variants, a bunch of
1:50s i can deal with and lets hope they dont
Do a 1:500 that may be the end of my
Attempt for completion. I dont think the books
Have been super but theyve been ok
Theyre trying so Im hanging in there with them
As well. Now many more months like the
April preorders and I might have to think
About cutting back on Valiant.
At some point I hope that they are
Successful enough with a bunch of books
That it would be impossible to keep up.
I hope they find a balance between
Sustaining their business and destroying
My wallet in the meantime

[michael]

The reason comics today have many variants is because of the low number of readers. Without all the variants there wouldn't be enough covers to go around keeping artists employed/feed. The industry in its current form is trying to stay alive as long as it can.

This scenario has happened to many industries and is called "push-implode-reform". We are coming to the end of the push phase "movies, multi covers, etc." for comic industry as a whole. Due to over exposure the implode is less than a decade out especially for superhero type comics. Then there will be a reform which will be mostly in digital form. When the reform happens the industry will look/work much different than it does today.

Just a prediction but every industry goes through this. Detroit would be the biggest example. Car industry pushed-imploded-reformed and left Detroit out of the reform. I wonder which comic companies will survive into the reform period.

[JCP]

Agreed that things will be pricey for all of the books in the coming months. But, I can't say no to the Bloodshot Reborn linewide variant this summer. It seems like an homage to the Bloodshot #1 chromium cover from VH1 only with bloodsquirt.

[unityshadowman]

Looking at the trends for the last year, I've listed variants that were larger than a (:20) cover, shown below. Usually a (:20) variant will get you in the pocket with $10. At least the discount is a somewhat digestible 50%, which is relatively consistent for books that are (:20) and less, at least from what I've seen and tracked. We expect great discounts since we aren't buying from the newsstand anymore, right? Although it may be tough to stomach purchasing a variant between (:40) to a (:120), usually Valiant releases one or two, average max, per month, which pretty consistently comes without a discount. If you see a (:60) incentive, as an example, is solicited, it's gonna cost you [in the range of] $60. I realize that for a shop or supplier to get a (:60) incentive, they will usually have to purchase 60 books to get that one (:60) variant. Thus, higher the book, lesser the discount...or no discount. Although coupling a larger [nondiscounted] variant with the array of other books sucks, it was something that I, presumably other buyers or completionists, have been "willing" to bear. A one or two was almost expected, but seeing (6)...or (7) including the $40 Island Vacation Pack dropped in one month just seems ridiculous. Certainly out of the norm and the first that I'm aware.

It's hard to gauge how many Valiant completionists are actually out there, and how many from the Valiant reading/collecting community are part of VF, or even read this section of the Forum. I really appreciate everyone's opinion and feedback with the dilemma and questions I posed. I can't say that someone in my exact month to month collecting/buying situation has weighed in with similar exasperations...or knows yet with what's coming in June But for me, looking at the June solicits, and having that WTF reality check, looking at the potential cost, worried that this is going to be an ongoing/expected trend with Valiant that can't be sustained by a dedicated completionist, is curious if this is a onetime only thing where Valiant will ease off for a few months to even out the financial hit, or feeling slightly betrayed that they're upping their variant game like the other, larger publishers (I laugh out loud in disgust when I see Marvel and DC produce their :500 editions)....I just feel that Valiant is better than that. They're a business with all of the drivers to survive and push forward. I get that. The use of variants to supplement lower readership has been an effective tactic, understandably, but it feels to me like it's beyond supplementing or survival and has morphed into something else. It just has the tinge of '90s greed which contributed to its own self-destruction. Perhaps the dam beginning to crack.

I've taken all of your comments to heart. It's the pseudo-support group I think I was looking for. Would rather have ranted with some brews in person with you all to be honest. That $80-90 beer variant burned me as well, Rentu. Damn. Factor in all of the different shop and show variants from month to month...yeah, it's getting hard man. I'm still going to do some soul-searching and budget reviewing before I pull the plug completely, and will figure out how tackle this one... there's a lot of great and exciting things coming, which makes it even harder to leave this passion.

April 2015:
Nothing greater than (:20)

May:
BOOK OF DEATH #1 (OF 4) CVR H 60 COPY INCV RIVERA

June:
BOOK OF DEATH #2 (OF 4) CVR E 60 COPY INCV RIVERA

July:
BOOK OF DEATH #3 (OF 4) CVR E 60 COPY INCV ARTIST RIVERA

August:
BOOK OF DEATH #4 (OF 4) CVR E 60 COPY INCV ARTIST RIVERA

September:
WRATH OF THE ETERNAL WARRIOR #1 CVR H 50 COPY INCV LAFUENTE

October:
WRATH OF THE ETERNAL WARRIOR #2 CVR F 50 COPY INCV BW LAFUEN

November:
BLOODSHOT REBORN #10 CVR G 50 COPY INCV B&W LAROSA
BLOODSHOT REBORN #10 CVR H 100 COPY INCV LINEWIDE LEMIRE
WRATH OF THE ETERNAL WARRIOR #3 CVR F 50 COPY INCV BW LAFUEN

December:
WRATH OF THE ETERNAL WARRIOR #4 CVR F 50 COPY INCV BW LAFUEN

January:
A&A #1 CVR H 50 COPY INCV B&W LAFUENTE

February:
DIVINITY II #1 (OF 4) CVR F 40 COPY INCV GORHAM
DIVINITY II #1 (OF 4) CVR G 80 COPY INCV B&W HAIRSINE
A&A #2 CVR F 50 COPY INCV B&W LAFUENTE

March:
4001 AD #1 (OF 4) CVR H 50 COPY INCV INTERLOCK SOOK
4001 AD #1 (OF 4) CVR I 100 COPY INCV B&W INTERLOCK SOOK
DIVINITY II #2 (OF 4) CVR E 40 COPY INCV GORHAM

April 2016:
BLOODSHOT REBORN #14 CVR H 50 COPY INCV B&W SKETCH GIORELLO
BLOODSHOT REBORN #14 CVR I 120 COPY INCV LINEWIDE LEMIRE
X-O MANOWAR #47 CVR G 50 COPY INCV LEMIRE
4001 AD #2 (OF 4) CVR G 50 COPY INCV INTERLOCK CVR SOOK
4001 AD #2 (OF 4) CVR H 100 COPY INCV B&W INTERLOCK CVR SOOK
DIVINITY II #3 (OF 4) CVR E 40 COPY INCV GORHAM

[mkb28]

Just my 2 cents here, but save yourself from this grief and buy the DCBS bundle at 50% off cover price each month. Take the $800+ savings each month and invest in a low cost stock index fund and you will have the last laugh. If you see a really cool variant that you want, go ahead and buy it...because you will be much wealthier with this strategy.

I wish you the best with your decision.

mkb28

[Nairbe]

Take the $800+ savings each month and invest in a low cost stock index fund and you will have the last laugh.

So have I been a jackass for buying individual stocks (mainly sitting on high dividend stocks and re-investing them), and jumping in on the lulls in the market?

[mkb28]

Take the $800+ savings each month and invest in a low cost stock index fund and you will have the last laugh.

So have I been a jackass for buying individual stocks (mainly sitting on high dividend stocks and re-investing them), and jumping in on the lulls in the market?

No, you will have the last laugh too! Especially since you aren't spending $800 a month on variants.

[Nairbe]

Take the $800+ savings each month and invest in a low cost stock index fund and you will have the last laugh.

So have I been a jackass for buying individual stocks (mainly sitting on high dividend stocks and re-investing them), and jumping in on the lulls in the market?

No, you will have the last laugh too! Especially since you aren't spending $800 a month on variants.

Actually ....

The old lady and I do pretty well, that being said, I was fine with $400-$500 a month in variants. But the April bill of $709 for all covers is making even me reconsider.

[Elveen]

I think that one thing for "us" to remember is that there are all kinds of buyers for comics out there.

a majority of peeps that I meet at a show that are Valiant comics buyers (like at a store, like buying monthly books) have never heard of OTV (when we were doing the podcast) or have never been a part of this board.

There are lots more readers out there than the 70-100 (ish) regular-ish posters here. Some guys don't bat an eye at spending whatever a month for comics. I have a few good friends that own comic shops, there ARE peeps that buy EVERY Marvel Variant EVERY month. That is what they do.

I "know" a guy that has bought multiple copies of EVERY Image #1 the last 5-6 years. Everyone. That is a lot of GABAGE books. He don't care. He has cash, and wants to spend it on comics.

I DO feel for the guys who are feeling the burn and are having to change their collecting and buying lifestyle due to finances.
I did, ad I was bummed. But. Now, no biggie. More to hunt down the road.

I guess what I saying is. There are buyers out there that would want MORE variants, more to hunt, more to buy. Some peeps have cash and have decided to buy comic books.

My collection is FAR from complete, FAR.

But, I'm happy with it. I DO want more, and down the road, I'll get it, maybe. But I do feel for the dudes who do have to change. That sucks. But, just gives them more to hunt down down the road.

[mkb28]

Take the $800+ savings each month and invest in a low cost stock index fund and you will have the last laugh.

So have I been a jackass for buying individual stocks (mainly sitting on high dividend stocks and re-investing them), and jumping in on the lulls in the market?

No, you will have the last laugh too! Especially since you aren't spending $800 a month on variants.

Actually ....

The old lady and I do pretty well, that being said, I was fine with $400-$500 a month in variants. But the April bill of $709 for all covers is making even me reconsider.

Makes my $150.00 per month budget look puny. I plan to knock my budget down further with just buying trades and HC's, which would make my wife very happy. I still plan to splurge on the GOLD CGC 9.8 slabs though!

mkb28

[jaspersk]

I think there is a time to get in on buying
Variants and a time to get out. Theres a lot of
Money getting pumped into comics and its
True a lot of preorders on variants even
Real crappy ones like all the power man iron fist ones.
I dont necessarily think its the time to get out
On valiant variants as 1:20s are cheap based on
Quantity allegedly produced and most of the
Other high end variants will be nearly
Impossible to get down the road if they are
Not preordered. I can understand the
Frustration because when the Valiant
Preorders equate to higher that your
Entire comic preorder (normal month)
You start questioning. But at least Valiant is
A company you can stand behind and
Thankfully there isnt much from the
Big two worth buying. Power Rangers from
Boom is ridiculous and when they start
Pumping out 5 different books with 50,100
Variants that will get out of hand. But im
Not into power rangers so Valiant plus
Harley plus aftershock 1:10s. I think there
Will be a lot of high cost months into the
Summer. I dont think this will be an
Aberration. Valiant will test how it affects
Ordèrs and will continue to do this.
I hope im wrong though. Its a model that
Works when the economy is good when low
Interest rates has forced people to pump
Money into alternative investments like
Comic books. If your looking to make money
Though find something people are not
Buying. I think there is an ever decreasing
Number of Valiant collectors buying every
Cover so i dont think there are a lot of
People buying valiant variants so i dont see it
As necessarily money in the trash.
Hopefully a sight like comicbookinvest
Doesnt start listing valiant variants and
Recommending it otherwise the market
Will be out of whack in a hurry and
Everything will become more expensive to buy