Life and Death of Toyo Harada #2 Discussion

An area for Valiant SPOILER-RELATED discussions.
Any books which have been published and are available may be discussed here. Recent book discussions may contain spoilers for those who have not yet read them.

Moderators: Daniel Jackson, greg

Post Reply
User avatar
DirtbagSailor
I only know how to fish, f^%k, fight, and throw rocks
I only know how to fish, f^%k, fight, and throw rocks
Posts: 5047
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:27:03 am
Valiant fan since: 1993
Favorite character: Harada
Favorite title: Imperium
Location: Maryland
Life and Death of Toyo Harada #2 Discussion

Post by DirtbagSailor »

As fantastic as LADOTH #1 was (is), LADOTH #2 is even BETTER! :clap:

This IS the story Valiant Fans have waited for.

This IS the series you read, collect, and remember as the gold standard of all things Valiant!

User avatar
DirtbagSailor
I only know how to fish, f^%k, fight, and throw rocks
I only know how to fish, f^%k, fight, and throw rocks
Posts: 5047
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:27:03 am
Valiant fan since: 1993
Favorite character: Harada
Favorite title: Imperium
Location: Maryland
Re: Life and Death of Toyo Harada #2 Discussion

Post by DirtbagSailor »

Jace and My spoiler free discussion on The Comic Source!

https://lrmonline.com/news/episode-766/ :thumb:

User avatar
grendeljd
innerSPACE does whatever I tell them
innerSPACE does whatever I tell them
Posts: 8132
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:51:43 am
Valiant fan since: 1991
Favorite character: Aric
Favorite title: Harbinger
Location: On the 7.5th floor of LesterCorp, headed through the back door to John Malkovich's brain.
Re: Life and Death of Toyo Harada #2 Discussion

Post by grendeljd »

Oh man, I have the early review/preview of this issue too, but haven't had a moment to read it yet... gah!! Can't wait!
I like to draw stuff... http://grendeljd.deviantart.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My wife likes to draw stuff too, and she is better than me! [I'm very proud of her]... https://www.facebook.com/pages/Sara-Dec ... ref=stream" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

otomo
Get those scissors away from my coupons
Get those scissors away from my coupons
Posts: 342
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:04:27 pm
Valiant fan since: 2017
Favorite character: XO Manowar
Favorite title: XO Manowar
Favorite writer: Matt Kindt
Favorite artist: Tomas Giorello
Re: Life and Death of Toyo Harada #2 Discussion

Post by otomo »

I said XO was about perfect... this also was about perfect. If valiant could just keep books like the three of these coming out like we had this week, you know, it'd be pretty awesome.
Like XO Manowar or Conan The Barbarian? Check out my new graphic novel, DEUS VULT on IndieGoGo now: Deus Vult: http://igg.me/at/deusvult.

otomo
Get those scissors away from my coupons
Get those scissors away from my coupons
Posts: 342
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:04:27 pm
Valiant fan since: 2017
Favorite character: XO Manowar
Favorite title: XO Manowar
Favorite writer: Matt Kindt
Favorite artist: Tomas Giorello
Re: Life and Death of Toyo Harada #2 Discussion

Post by otomo »

Oh I thought I was discussing #1 when this was #2. These threads are getting confusing now that so many folk are getting pre-release copies, I don't know what's being discussed. My comment still stands though, perfect book.
Like XO Manowar or Conan The Barbarian? Check out my new graphic novel, DEUS VULT on IndieGoGo now: Deus Vult: http://igg.me/at/deusvult.

User avatar
grendeljd
innerSPACE does whatever I tell them
innerSPACE does whatever I tell them
Posts: 8132
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:51:43 am
Valiant fan since: 1991
Favorite character: Aric
Favorite title: Harbinger
Location: On the 7.5th floor of LesterCorp, headed through the back door to John Malkovich's brain.
Re: Life and Death of Toyo Harada #2 Discussion

Post by grendeljd »

If anyone would like to hear our OTV:VCR podcast discussing/reviewing this issue [& Livewire #5], please follow the link;

http://onlythevaliant.com/episodes/vcr201/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks to any who listen in :thumb:
I like to draw stuff... http://grendeljd.deviantart.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My wife likes to draw stuff too, and she is better than me! [I'm very proud of her]... https://www.facebook.com/pages/Sara-Dec ... ref=stream" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

User avatar
Dallow Spicer1
Rockin' out in Torquehalla
Rockin' out in Torquehalla
Posts: 2454
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:19:05 am
Valiant fan since: Mid 90's
Favorite character: X-O
Favorite title: X-O
Favorite writer: V-Ditti & Dysart
Favorite artist: Larosa
Location: United Kingdom
Re: Life and Death of Toyo Harada #2 Discussion

Post by Dallow Spicer1 »

Another top notch issue from Dysart. LADOTH really highlights a lot of the mediocrity we’ve gotten used to over the past few years. This issue also reminds me that Kosol was killed off way too easily and perhaps it was a misstep taking him out of the universe.

Stupid question maybe, but do we think Harada will actually be killed off at the end of this mini? Surely they won’t kill VEI’s biggest bad guy? :?

5/5 - art and story delivers! :clap:

User avatar
DirtbagSailor
I only know how to fish, f^%k, fight, and throw rocks
I only know how to fish, f^%k, fight, and throw rocks
Posts: 5047
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:27:03 am
Valiant fan since: 1993
Favorite character: Harada
Favorite title: Imperium
Location: Maryland
Re: Life and Death of Toyo Harada #2 Discussion

Post by DirtbagSailor »

Jace & DBS discuss The Life and Death of Toyo Harada #2 (again) on the Valiant Sunday episode of The Comic Source:

https://lrmonline.com/?powerpress_pinw=134336-podcast

User avatar
DirtbagSailor
I only know how to fish, f^%k, fight, and throw rocks
I only know how to fish, f^%k, fight, and throw rocks
Posts: 5047
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:27:03 am
Valiant fan since: 1993
Favorite character: Harada
Favorite title: Imperium
Location: Maryland
Re: Life and Death of Toyo Harada #2 Discussion

Post by DirtbagSailor »

DBS’s (SPOILER FREE) Rating = :clap:

User avatar
agent_graves
Just jumpin' through time arcs, that's all.
Just jumpin' through time arcs, that's all.
Posts: 1754
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:34:56 pm
Valiant fan since: Since VEI(Turok #1?)
Favorite character: Divinity/Shadowman/LiveWire
Favorite title: Divinity/Imperium/Ninjak
Favorite writer: Kindt/Lemire/Dysart
Favorite artist: Mann/Cafu/De la Torre
Location: North Carolina
Re: Life and Death of Toyo Harada #2 Discussion

Post by agent_graves »

DirtbagSailor wrote:As fantastic as LADOTH #1 was (is), LADOTH #2 is even BETTER! :clap:

This IS the story Valiant Fans have waited for.

This IS the series you read, collect, and remember as the gold standard of all things Valiant!
+1 Nuff Said!!!! ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️
#StayValiant

mullinsmcd
Working on the first full appearance of me
Working on the first full appearance of me
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:29:52 pm
Re: Life and Death of Toyo Harada #2 Discussion

Post by mullinsmcd »

Ive read through all of Dysarts work to date but I'm struggling a bit on Toyos choice not to provide Angela Vessel with her request, especially considering the critical junction hes in. Toyo has always struck me as someone who would tactically make small sacrifices to his morals in order to service the bigger picture.

Can someone enlighten me on why he would do so many other things but the 'Factory' is crossing the line?

User avatar
DirtbagSailor
I only know how to fish, f^%k, fight, and throw rocks
I only know how to fish, f^%k, fight, and throw rocks
Posts: 5047
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:27:03 am
Valiant fan since: 1993
Favorite character: Harada
Favorite title: Imperium
Location: Maryland
Re: Life and Death of Toyo Harada #2 Discussion

Post by DirtbagSailor »

mullinsmcd wrote:Ive read through all of Dysarts work to date but I'm struggling a bit on Toyos choice not to provide Angela Vessel with her request, especially considering the critical junction hes in. Toyo has always struck me as someone who would tactically make small sacrifices to his morals in order to service the bigger picture.

Can someone enlighten me on why he would do so many other things but the 'Factory' is crossing the line?
Yes.

Many people have ZERO ethical issue with killing opposition (enemy combatant) forces on a battlefield, while at the same time, they DO take serious ethical issue with killing of the innocent (non-combatants). While Harada is clearly one of the most powerful Psiots in the VU, he is also human, and has a internal moral compass that incorporates 80+ years of witnessing horrific events (to include watching his own mother basically burn/melt in front of him). Harada is NOT a soulless and/or emotionless monster willing to allow himself to look so far into the abyss that he becomes worse than what he seeks to prevent.

Angela may be arguably "correct" from a mechanical perspective where morals, souls, and emotions do not exist; however, if Harada plans to rule the world, 1.) he needs to ensure after all of his actions are complete, that a world worth ruling remains, and 2.) that the people to be ruled are not instantly united against Harada’s for his actions.

Soldiers die in battle. People (most people) will understand this truth. FEW people will agree to or understand this "Factory." Such an action not only would spark further action against The Foundation (rebellions, revolution, civil war, etc), but further embolden and/or justify such action on a massive scale (e.g. Hitler killing 6,000,000+ Jews did NOT ultimately help Germany meet and/or achieve their objectives, but rather created a tidal wave of opposition).

This is why a nation cannot simply drop 500 atomic bombs on it's enemy to win a war. A nation must also win the hearts and minds of the people it seeks to conquer.

Such topics often lead to debate, in which the opposing ideologies can lead to various outcomes and bitterness.

User avatar
jmatt
Mmm, I was drooling over Cooshie tonight.
Mmm, I was drooling over Cooshie tonight.
Posts: 11026
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:41:10 pm
Location: Lehigh Valley, PA!
Re: Life and Death of Toyo Harada #2 Discussion

Post by jmatt »

Another great issue. Angela going up against Harada is exciting stuff!

User avatar
grendeljd
innerSPACE does whatever I tell them
innerSPACE does whatever I tell them
Posts: 8132
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:51:43 am
Valiant fan since: 1991
Favorite character: Aric
Favorite title: Harbinger
Location: On the 7.5th floor of LesterCorp, headed through the back door to John Malkovich's brain.
Re: Life and Death of Toyo Harada #2 Discussion

Post by grendeljd »

One of my favourite aspects of this series, two issues in, is the amount of narrative writing that fleshes out everything from background details to character motivations to thematic concepts that drive the tale. None of it is superfluous, it all adds rich depth to the story. I love it.

I think it has become far too popular to write comics with absolutely no narration (or characters personal thoughts) - I don't think there is anything particularly clever about reducing the word counts and relying on the visuals to tell the broad strokes of the story in this modern era. We certainly don't need to read narrative captions that explain the action in the pictures they're contained in [as many old-school comics are often guilty of], but this medium is unique as a combination of literature & imagery - it would be nice if the industry as a whole would stop treating comics like they're TV shows or movies.

The most interesting use of it in this issue was to show the parallel between Toyo's behaviour as a child on that ship, and how driven he is currently in the face of surmounting odds stacked against him. But even beyond that, the exploration of the concept of fighting so uselessly and destructively against the forces of nature in his past sets the tone for the modern scenario as it plays out. I love the way that impacts my sense of anticipation and suspense over how this story will turn out for Toyo. It may yet lead to his actual physical death, or it may be more of a metaphorical one, but the ideas at play here lead me to care about this character as so much more than a simple villain. Will he learn his lesson in humility and find a path forward, or will he once again allow everything good around him that he has attempted to build be destroyed out of hubris? This is storytelling at its finest.

And the artwork by CAFU & Mico is all such a visual feast to indulge in...
I like to draw stuff... http://grendeljd.deviantart.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My wife likes to draw stuff too, and she is better than me! [I'm very proud of her]... https://www.facebook.com/pages/Sara-Dec ... ref=stream" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

User avatar
kjjohanson
Now I bet you're all going to want me to drag it out and show you.
Now I bet you're all going to want me to drag it out and show you.
Posts: 4999
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 6:52:13 pm
Valiant fan since: Magnus #1
Favorite character: Anon-Lurker
Favorite title: Archer & Armstrong
Favorite writer: Fred Van Lente
Location: Astoria, NY
Contact:
Re: Life and Death of Toyo Harada #2 Discussion

Post by kjjohanson »

grendeljd wrote:One of my favourite aspects of this series, two issues in, is the amount of narrative writing that fleshes out everything from background details to character motivations to thematic concepts that drive the tale. None of it is superfluous, it all adds rich depth to the story. I love it.

I think it has become far too popular to write comics with absolutely no narration (or characters personal thoughts) - I don't think there is anything particularly clever about reducing the word counts and relying on the visuals to tell the broad strokes of the story in this modern era. We certainly don't need to read narrative captions that explain the action in the pictures they're contained in [as many old-school comics are often guilty of], but this medium is unique as a combination of literature & imagery - it would be nice if the industry as a whole would stop treating comics like they're TV shows or movies.

The most interesting use of it in this issue was to show the parallel between Toyo's behaviour as a child on that ship, and how driven he is currently in the face of surmounting odds stacked against him. But even beyond that, the exploration of the concept of fighting so uselessly and destructively against the forces of nature in his past sets the tone for the modern scenario as it plays out. I love the way that impacts my sense of anticipation and suspense over how this story will turn out for Toyo. It may yet lead to his actual physical death, or it may be more of a metaphorical one, but the ideas at play here lead me to care about this character as so much more than a simple villain. Will he learn his lesson in humility and find a path forward, or will he once again allow everything good around him that he has attempted to build be destroyed out of hubris? This is storytelling at its finest.

And the artwork by CAFU & Mico is all such a visual feast to indulge in...
Reading the extra content in the pre-order edition was very interesting, in respect to the story with the ship. Has anyone else been keeping up with the text piece about Harada's life?
If you're not a *SQUEE*, you're okay with me.

User avatar
kjjohanson
Now I bet you're all going to want me to drag it out and show you.
Now I bet you're all going to want me to drag it out and show you.
Posts: 4999
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 6:52:13 pm
Valiant fan since: Magnus #1
Favorite character: Anon-Lurker
Favorite title: Archer & Armstrong
Favorite writer: Fred Van Lente
Location: Astoria, NY
Contact:
Re: Life and Death of Toyo Harada #2 Discussion

Post by kjjohanson »

Dallow Spicer1 wrote:Another top notch issue from Dysart. LADOTH really highlights a lot of the mediocrity we’ve gotten used to over the past few years. This issue also reminds me that Kosol was killed off way too easily and perhaps it was a misstep taking him out of the universe.

Stupid question maybe, but do we think Harada will actually be killed off at the end of this mini? Surely they won’t kill VEI’s biggest bad guy? :?

5/5 - art and story delivers! :clap:
My expectation coming into the series is that Harada would somehow find a new body to host his consciousness and powers. So the body that people identify as Harada may die, but the character will live on. When Sunlight on Snow apologized to Gravedog, telling him that if he had had a choice in the matter, he would have told him, I thought that that's where we might be going. Still, time will tell…
Last edited by kjjohanson on Sun Jun 02, 2019 3:21:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If you're not a *SQUEE*, you're okay with me.

User avatar
Dallow Spicer1
Rockin' out in Torquehalla
Rockin' out in Torquehalla
Posts: 2454
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:19:05 am
Valiant fan since: Mid 90's
Favorite character: X-O
Favorite title: X-O
Favorite writer: V-Ditti & Dysart
Favorite artist: Larosa
Location: United Kingdom
Re: Life and Death of Toyo Harada #2 Discussion

Post by Dallow Spicer1 »

kjjohanson wrote:
Dallow Spicer1 wrote:Another top notch issue from Dysart. LADOTH really highlights a lot of the mediocrity we’ve gotten used to over the past few years. This issue also reminds me that Kosol was killed off way too easily and perhaps it was a misstep taking him out of the universe.

Stupid question maybe, but do we think Harada will actually be killed off at the end of this mini? Surely they won’t kill VEI’s biggest bad guy? :?

5/5 - art and story delivers! :clap:
My expectation coming into the series is that Harada would someone find a new body to host his consciousness and powers. So which the body that people identify as Harada may die, the character will live on. When Sunlight on Snow apologized to Gravedog, telling him that if he had had a choice in the matter, he would have told him, I though that that's where we might be going. Still, time will tell…
Interesting :hm: I hope he is still around in some form!

User avatar
grendeljd
innerSPACE does whatever I tell them
innerSPACE does whatever I tell them
Posts: 8132
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:51:43 am
Valiant fan since: 1991
Favorite character: Aric
Favorite title: Harbinger
Location: On the 7.5th floor of LesterCorp, headed through the back door to John Malkovich's brain.
Re: Life and Death of Toyo Harada #2 Discussion

Post by grendeljd »

kjjohanson wrote:
grendeljd wrote:One of my favourite aspects of this series, two issues in, is the amount of narrative writing that fleshes out everything from background details to character motivations to thematic concepts that drive the tale. None of it is superfluous, it all adds rich depth to the story. I love it.

I think it has become far too popular to write comics with absolutely no narration (or characters personal thoughts) - I don't think there is anything particularly clever about reducing the word counts and relying on the visuals to tell the broad strokes of the story in this modern era. We certainly don't need to read narrative captions that explain the action in the pictures they're contained in [as many old-school comics are often guilty of], but this medium is unique as a combination of literature & imagery - it would be nice if the industry as a whole would stop treating comics like they're TV shows or movies.

The most interesting use of it in this issue was to show the parallel between Toyo's behaviour as a child on that ship, and how driven he is currently in the face of surmounting odds stacked against him. But even beyond that, the exploration of the concept of fighting so uselessly and destructively against the forces of nature in his past sets the tone for the modern scenario as it plays out. I love the way that impacts my sense of anticipation and suspense over how this story will turn out for Toyo. It may yet lead to his actual physical death, or it may be more of a metaphorical one, but the ideas at play here lead me to care about this character as so much more than a simple villain. Will he learn his lesson in humility and find a path forward, or will he once again allow everything good around him that he has attempted to build be destroyed out of hubris? This is storytelling at its finest.

And the artwork by CAFU & Mico is all such a visual feast to indulge in...
Reading the extra content in the pre-order edition was very interesting, in respect to the story with the ship. Has anyone else been keeping up with the text piece about Harada's life?
This made me clue in just now that I did not get the pre-order set for this mini-series. I’ve got it on my LCS pull-list, but either I forgot to specify the pre-order editions or they didn’t set me up with them. Ugh!! :censored: :!:
I like to draw stuff... http://grendeljd.deviantart.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My wife likes to draw stuff too, and she is better than me! [I'm very proud of her]... https://www.facebook.com/pages/Sara-Dec ... ref=stream" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

User avatar
kjjohanson
Now I bet you're all going to want me to drag it out and show you.
Now I bet you're all going to want me to drag it out and show you.
Posts: 4999
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 6:52:13 pm
Valiant fan since: Magnus #1
Favorite character: Anon-Lurker
Favorite title: Archer & Armstrong
Favorite writer: Fred Van Lente
Location: Astoria, NY
Contact:
Re: Life and Death of Toyo Harada #2 Discussion

Post by kjjohanson »

grendeljd wrote:
kjjohanson wrote:
grendeljd wrote:One of my favourite aspects of this series, two issues in, is the amount of narrative writing that fleshes out everything from background details to character motivations to thematic concepts that drive the tale. None of it is superfluous, it all adds rich depth to the story. I love it.

I think it has become far too popular to write comics with absolutely no narration (or characters personal thoughts) - I don't think there is anything particularly clever about reducing the word counts and relying on the visuals to tell the broad strokes of the story in this modern era. We certainly don't need to read narrative captions that explain the action in the pictures they're contained in [as many old-school comics are often guilty of], but this medium is unique as a combination of literature & imagery - it would be nice if the industry as a whole would stop treating comics like they're TV shows or movies.

The most interesting use of it in this issue was to show the parallel between Toyo's behaviour as a child on that ship, and how driven he is currently in the face of surmounting odds stacked against him. But even beyond that, the exploration of the concept of fighting so uselessly and destructively against the forces of nature in his past sets the tone for the modern scenario as it plays out. I love the way that impacts my sense of anticipation and suspense over how this story will turn out for Toyo. It may yet lead to his actual physical death, or it may be more of a metaphorical one, but the ideas at play here lead me to care about this character as so much more than a simple villain. Will he learn his lesson in humility and find a path forward, or will he once again allow everything good around him that he has attempted to build be destroyed out of hubris? This is storytelling at its finest.

And the artwork by CAFU & Mico is all such a visual feast to indulge in...
Reading the extra content in the pre-order edition was very interesting, in respect to the story with the ship. Has anyone else been keeping up with the text piece about Harada's life?
This made me clue in just now that I did not get the pre-order set for this mini-series. I’ve got it on my LCS pull-list, but either I forgot to specify the pre-order editions or they didn’t set me up with them. Ugh!! :censored: :!:
The text piece is in the format of an article about Harada, for which the author interviewed Harada sometime before the start of the Harbinger comic. It's not really giving anything away, but the author's comments about Harada's "recollection" of the events (or more specifically, how the situation ended) are completely different than what is relayed in the comic story.
If you're not a *SQUEE*, you're okay with me.


Post Reply