*Counterfeit Valiant Update- Midnight, On Earth w/ Jim Shooter Ep 89 - NEW EPISODE

[valiantdude]

Well.. I got to hear an advanced recording of this, and it looks like it was released so this will be a follow-up to the counterfeit Valiant situation..
Everyone must listen to this episode for several reasons..
1) It features Greg Holland of this website having a q&a session with Jim (congrats Greg)
2) specifically focuses on Valiant, Defiant, and Broadway.
3) Jim and the host talk again about the counterfeit Valiants and go into more detail.. I personally sent the host an image from a thread here showing the different Solar #1 covers that someone posted, because right away I said COUNTERFEIT, when I saw them.. Jim claims the blue Solar #1s are counterfeit.
4) I was right about the counterfeit Valiants
5) It's a killer podcast episode if you are a Jim Shooter fan.
6) I was right about the counterfeit Valiants

www.midnightonearth.com

[Chiclo]

Wow, hard to argue with that. I am convinced.

Now I have to track down copies of counterfeits.

What other counterfeits are there, valiantdude?

[greg]

I couldn't help but notice how many times Jim Shooter said that Fred Pierce would know more, talk to Fred, that happened with Fred, etc.

It reminds me of something I posted last year:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=53796

[Chiclo]

Why must you ruin everything beautiful in this life, greg?

[greg]

Why must you ruin everything beautiful in this life, greg?

Because I haven't spent 25+ years documenting Valiant books just to have a faulty memory become the claim to fame for a "dude" on this site who won't let it go.

Jim is mostly right about what he remembers. But it was 30 years ago, and he has part of the story wrong. The important part. There are no counterfeit Valiant books.

Yes, there are both blue and purple copies of Solar #1... just like there are variations in the print run of every comic from every publisher that's ever been printed. Neither the blue or the purple are counterfeits. Different amounts of ink on the same machines printed at the same time don't make some of them fake.

No other Valiant books are counterfeits either. Sorry, I've ruined the game... but I'm just passing along the details from someone I trust more on this topic than Jim's own memory.

Now, who could be more trustworthy than Jim Shooter on this particular topic?

[valiantdude]

I dont buy it, sorry greg. But you did awesome with Jim, kudos.
Until Fred Pierce makes a public statement, it's Jims word against Freds. I'm taking jims side.
Why is Fred's perspective better than Jim's?

[Chiclo]

Can we start a checklist?

1. Solar 1 Blue
2. Sneak Peak 1

3. Rai 3 miscut?
4. Bloodshot 6 vvss no cert?
5. Eternal Warrior 1 gold flat?
6. Magnus 12?
7. Rai 0 Glossy?
8. Magnus 57 error?

[greg]

I dont buy it, sorry greg. But you did awesome with Jim, kudos.
Until Fred Pierce makes a public statement, it's Jims word against Freds. I'm taking jims side.
Why is Fred's perspective better than Jim's?

Because Jim said - over and over - in the interview that Fred was involved, Jim was not.
Fred remembers, Jim doesn't.
Fred would know, Jim defers to Fred.
You put more trust in Jim's word than Jim does.

Let me ask you this... completely unrelated to the interview... just from a logistics standpoint...
If the "purple Solar #1" were the only legitimate copies, and since the majority of copies on eBay are "blue Solar #1" (and therefore, supposedly, counterfeit), then wouldn't you be suggesting there are hundreds of thousands of counterfeit blue Solar #1 copies vs. the approximately 70,000 legitimate purple Solar #1 copies?

You can take Jim's side, but the numbers don't work.
I'm also betting Jim would take Fred's side, if Fred made a public statement.
I can already imagine hearing Jim saying something like, "Oh, that's right. I was remembering it differently, but that makes more sense. Ha! It has been 30 years."

[greg]

Can we start a checklist?

1. Solar 1 Blue
2. Sneak Peak 1

3. Rai 3 miscut?
4. Bloodshot 6 vvss no cert?
5. Eternal Warrior 1 gold flat?
6. Magnus 12?
7. Rai 0 Glossy?
8. Magnus 57 error?

Obviously, this is a joke, but I still have to chiclo your joke. You've got too many post-Unity books on your list. The story that Jim told mentioned an arrest while Jim was still with Valiant.

[greg]

Someone in the midwest was arrested in 1992 (while Jim was at Valiant) because they were caught (in a planned sting operation) selling Valiant books illegally out of a car/truck/van/SUV. No argument there. I've heard that from two sources that agree.

Did the guy sell counterfeit copies of all those different issues printed from scratch (and collectors never noticed for decades) or did the guy sell legit copies obtained illegally (and there was nothing for collectors to notice)?

Which is more likely?

Extra info which is public -
Sparta, Illinois, is in the midwest and was the home of World Color, printers of comic books for all major publishers, including Valiant.
In 1992, World Color closed the Sparta location, and locals were out of work and probably in financial trouble having lost their jobs making legit comic books for decades.

Back to the question, which is more likely? Counterfeits made from scratch or legit copies obtained illegally?

[Chiclo]

How do you explain the blue Solar 1s that Jim Shooter confirmed were counterfeits? Chewbacca was a Wookie from the planet Kashyyyk!

[greg]

How do you explain the blue Solar 1s that Jim Shooter confirmed were counterfeits?

Jim said he could see the differences and it might be an indication they're counterfeit, but he wouldn't swear to it, and it wouldn't hold up in court.

Yep, that's rock solid.

Chewbacca was a Wookie from the planet Kashyyyk!

Wait a minute, Marty McFly changed the past so that his father was successful in 1985. George McFly wouldn't have the same house as when they were poor.
Sanford and Son did not live next door to the Huxtables. If Cliff Huxtable is an OB/GYN, then Fred Sanford cannot move in. George McFly is a lie!

[nycjadie]

I’ve had literally hundreds of Solar 1s in my collection from different parts of the country. That blue differed significantly in many copies but all were legit. The only copy of Solar 1 I have encountered that I suspect is counterfeit is the one in Tagalog!

[lorddunlow]

Has anyone considered the Canadians?

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk

[greg]

Has anyone considered the Canadians?

Who do you think closed the World Color branch in Sparta, Illinois?

[valiantdude]

people were arrested with Valiant books, you said it is true. if they were legit copies somehow they wouldnt be arrested for it. there is no way they could prove they were stolen and not purchased from comic shops. there were many different comics. they only way they could arrest them, which you confirmed happened is if they were provably fake on the spot. huge whole here.

question 2 if they were printed at sparta, and lets say, an employee printed an extra 1000, would they be considered counterfeit because they were not ordered and maybe printed from older files with missing ink profiles?

[greg]

people were arrested with Valiant books, you said it is true. if they were legit copies somehow they wouldnt be arrested for it. there is no way they could prove they were stolen and not purchased from comic shops. there were many different comics. they only way they could arrest them, which you confirmed happened is if they were provably fake on the spot. huge whole here.

If the guy tried to sell legit books that weren't released/distributed yet, he'd be caught immediately. Sparta was a printer, not a distributor.
What if the guy simply bragged about how he illegally obtained the books? They fell off a truck, right? Wink, wink. He's already trying to sell to someone who also knows it's not legal. Brag about your skills and maybe you get a repeat customer who appreciates those skills. Just not a good idea if it's a sting.

question 2 if they were printed at sparta, and lets say, an employee printed an extra 1000, would they be considered counterfeit because they were not ordered and maybe printed from older files with missing ink profiles?

They would be unauthorized, but legit. No production or material differences. There are some old story books about some guys making some gold rings with permission, and then one guy made an extra ring in secret. It wasn't authorized, but the extra ring was legit. Caused nothing but trouble, precious.

The "maybe printed from older files with missing ink profiles" suggestion sounds like a weak hypothetical.

Stronger hypotheticals would be:
What if print runs have normal color variation? (They normally do.)
What if light causes red ink to fade faster than blue ink? Would purple ink start to look more blue? (It does. It would.)
What if books that were identical when they were printed could have color differences after 30+ years of different storage methods, oxygen levels, humidity and temperature ranges, even if they were kept away from light? (They could.)
What if no one noticed the color differences for decades because the differences took decades to appear? ("Gradual" is a word in the dictionary.)
What if unauthorized extras were identical? (They probably would be.)
What if the printer shipped fewer copies to the distributors than what they ordered, no extras printed, just someone skimming from the shipments? (Shorting the order still happens today, not necessarily criminal, but the missing books would be somewhere if they were printed.)
What if shipping discrepancies happened enough times that the distributors called Valiant to see what's up? (Seems like Valiant would investigate with the printer and maybe get law enforcement involved.)

However the guy got legit copies to illegally sell, he got caught.

There are no counterfeits in any of these scenarios.

[magnusr]

Can we start a checklist?

A list of common misprints would be useful.

What was amiss with Magnus 12?

/Magnus

[Chiclo]

Has anyone considered the Canadians?

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk

They did cross my mind. Today, comics are printed in China. Before that, they were printed in Canada BUT I don't think they shut down the printer in Sparta, IL to ship American jobs to Canada in 1992. I think printing was still in America at that time.

[valiantdude]

greg,
there are holes in your story.
Last year it was all up in the air. Now you are saying im 90% accurate but they are not counterfeit, but somehow stolen over printing or fallen off the back of a truck.
Here are the facts:
people arrested
sold out of a trunk
fred pierce involved
had access to printing press (if the sparta thing is accurate)

You said the blue Solar #1s may be from discoloration, but the OP stated clearly that they knew about the variation in 1992. So clearly before any natural degradation can happen.

Now answer me this:

If someone overprinted comics but did not have access to all of the ink required, would those be counterfeit?

If someone printed comics months after they were sold in stores, but they were still mostly undetectable because they came from the same printing press, would those be counterfeit?

If someone overprinted books during their initial run, and kept maybe 1000 of each book, would those be considered counterfeit?

this is not solved until fred pierce makes a public statement with verifiable facts, fred and jim are roughly the same age, is it even possible fred could be wrong?

[greg]

Tilting at windmills is still a thing in the 21st century, evidently.

[JCP]

Tilting at windmills is still a thing in the 21st century, evidently.

Don Quixote is a counterfeit work.

[JCP]

greg,
there are holes in your story.
Last year it was all up in the air. Now you are saying im 90% accurate but they are not counterfeit, but somehow stolen over printing or fallen off the back of a truck.
Here are the facts:
people arrested
sold out of a trunk
fred pierce involved
had access to printing press (if the sparta thing is accurate)

You said the blue Solar #1s may be from discoloration, but the OP stated clearly that they knew about the variation in 1992. So clearly before any natural degradation can happen.

Now answer me this:

If someone overprinted comics but did not have access to all of the ink required, would those be counterfeit?

If someone printed comics months after they were sold in stores, but they were still mostly undetectable because they came from the same printing press, would those be counterfeit?

If someone overprinted books during their initial run, and kept maybe 1000 of each book, would those be considered counterfeit?

this is not solved until fred pierce makes a public statement with verifiable facts, fred and jim are roughly the same age, is it even possible fred could be wrong?

Queue the Jim Carrey “Oh boy, here we go” meme.

[valiantdude]

holes in the story

[ckb]

There are holes in every story trying to explain something 30 years ago. The only thing that surprises me here is Fred's reluctance to give a full accounting of what he remembers - even if it is a "man I just don't remember the details and I am afraid I will make it worse".

The whole thing makes sense with just "stolen" in place of "counterfeit". It even would approach somewhat believable with "unauthorized" in place of "counterfeit". In my opinion in order to use "counterfeit" it would be someone starting with a legit book and working up from there. Like a money counterfeiter starting with a real $20 bill.