This Board and Alien Books

[ManofTheAtom]

Yep. Didn't help that they disbanded their committee of comic book writers that reviewed the scrips.

They did that loooong before the movies started sucking. I don't think anyone thinks the comic book committee was really being listened to ever.

For Phase 1 they must have been. That was definitely their best phase. It was during Phase 2, after Winter Soldier, that everything went to hell.

Insanity. Phase 3 is the best phase. Both critically and commercially. The numbers for both are clear. It's post Endgame that the reviews and box office are dropping

That's relative to one's enjoyment.

After Phase 1, the Marvel Cinematic Universe became the Marvel Comedic Universe and the quality of their movies took a downward turn.

Just because they were more commercial it did not mean they were good. Many respected directors have criticized their quality.

Numbers don't lie. Reviews, scores, audience numbers, awards all went way up. Some of the accepted best films of all time came in phases 2 and 3. Much like with Valiant, your personal taste seems to run against popular opinion.

One, old, out of touch and probably jealous director criticized them and was roundly chastised for it.

It's hardly been one. Coppola, Cameron, and several other more have been very vocal about their opinion of the Marvel movies.

[Ryan]

On the topic of board identity, I was browsing here in 2005, joined in 2007, fading in and out this whole time. A few things have impacted discussion I think.

One is Reddit wasn't the monster it was in 2007, I likely had not had even heard of it at that point. I don't think you've had any new members under 30 join this board because of the greying niche of comics, the shrinking niche of non big 2 content, and the fact that unique message boards like this are really a relic of the previous decades, which is a shame. You just make a subreddit now and whoever was first gets to control the content as the mod.

I can look at threads from 2007, how many of us passed away? I'm seeing Daniel Jackson, ZWH, Cinlach, depluto, Slym, etc. Not saying all of those people are dead, but I'd bet there's a solid chunk that would be your active posters and nobody backfills their content. The thing about message boards is there is a lot of people that don't get to sign out or have family announce their passing. My family isn't aware I post here since I'm not involved enough on the convention circuit to where something here involves my personal life.

I was most active before the VEI launch. For the most part, VEI was great. I think there was a lot of what ifs that could be discussed and how the sentiment was "there was so much more" to see while we talked about collecting. There's an innocent excitement where everyone is on the same page where we're here to enjoy the content that exists. Take a look at those VEI vs VIP threads when it's a united front.

VEI happened, you got 5 years of new content. In that time, if you weren't buying all the new stuff, you were suddenly out of the loop on the new stuff as new members entered, so there's a bit of an identity change, which can be a good thing if it's successful and it's not just political Twitter eggs running to the next thing. Once you got the political involvement from untalented people like Antos in Valiant hiring only other people like her, you had new fans that would refuse to see the warts because of political alignment with the author regardless of the content (see Psi-Lords defenders), and both parties would drive themselves off after enough arguments.

Then Valiant fails again because it was terrible and the stories were just attempts at Netflix pitches like every comics property after 2015.

Jon Taffer on Bar Rescue believes you can never make something a success if it's failed once before, let alone twice, so he always insists on changing the restaurant names. Now that you've got a brand that's failed three times, it's hard to get excited every day for it, especially if you have other life distractions.

Very good points here

[GammaJosh]

Numbers don't lie. Reviews, scores, audience numbers, awards all went way up. Some of the accepted best films of all time came in phases 2 and 3. Much like with Valiant, your personal taste seems to run against popular opinion.

I'm shocked there are so many people who think Phase 1 was better. Other than the first Iron Man and Avengers I am hard pressed to find a movie in phase 1 that I would rank particularly high among MCU flicks. The third Thor movie was the first good Thor movie. The second and third Captain America movies were leaps and bounds better than the first. Guardians, while yes comedic, is still one of the best MCU films. And the Tom Holland Spider-Man movies don't even begin until Phase 3.

[leonmallett]

On the topic of board identity, I was browsing here in 2005, joined in 2007, fading in and out this whole time. A few things have impacted discussion I think.

One is Reddit wasn't the monster it was in 2007, I likely had not had even heard of it at that point. I don't think you've had any new members under 30 join this board because of the greying niche of comics, the shrinking niche of non big 2 content, and the fact that unique message boards like this are really a relic of the previous decades, which is a shame. You just make a subreddit now and whoever was first gets to control the content as the mod.

I can look at threads from 2007, how many of us passed away? I'm seeing Daniel Jackson, ZWH, Cinlach, depluto, Slym, etc. Not saying all of those people are dead, but I'd bet there's a solid chunk that would be your active posters and nobody backfills their content. The thing about message boards is there is a lot of people that don't get to sign out or have family announce their passing. My family isn't aware I post here since I'm not involved enough on the convention circuit to where something here involves my personal life.

I was most active before the VEI launch. For the most part, VEI was great. I think there was a lot of what ifs that could be discussed and how the sentiment was "there was so much more" to see while we talked about collecting. There's an innocent excitement where everyone is on the same page where we're here to enjoy the content that exists. Take a look at those VEI vs VIP threads when it's a united front.

VEI happened, you got 5 years of new content. In that time, if you weren't buying all the new stuff, you were suddenly out of the loop on the new stuff as new members entered, so there's a bit of an identity change, which can be a good thing if it's successful and it's not just political Twitter eggs running to the next thing. Once you got the political involvement from untalented people like Antos in Valiant hiring only other people like her, you had new fans that would refuse to see the warts because of political alignment with the author regardless of the content (see Psi-Lords defenders), and both parties would drive themselves off after enough arguments.

Then Valiant fails again because it was terrible and the stories were just attempts at Netflix pitches like every comics property after 2015.

Jon Taffer on Bar Rescue believes you can never make something a success if it's failed once before, let alone twice, so he always insists on changing the restaurant names. Now that you've got a brand that's failed three times, it's hard to get excited every day for it, especially if you have other life distractions.

Very good points here

I think the branding issue is a really good point, especially if it is essentially the 4th (5th?) era/iteration of VALIANT.

Relaunching as a continuation or soft reboot has challenges - the audience has dwindled. Hard reboot has challenges - you lose some core readership who see a jumping off point. Hard reset to a past era has challenges - you alienate at least some of your readership who prefer VEI to VH1 (for instance) if you go that route, or lose audience have no affinity for an era fondly remembered by an ageing audience, it can feel backwards looking.

There is no clear answer for VALIANT due to the interruptions of publication, and as I see it, Alien have a hard road ahead. If they publish HCs of new and VEI-era material I don't have I'll buy them, but I think it will be a hard road to get there.

[lorddunlow]

Yep. Didn't help that they disbanded their committee of comic book writers that reviewed the scrips.

They did that loooong before the movies started sucking. I don't think anyone thinks the comic book committee was really being listened to ever.

For Phase 1 they must have been. That was definitely their best phase. It was during Phase 2, after Winter Soldier, that everything went to hell.

Insanity. Phase 3 is the best phase. Both critically and commercially. The numbers for both are clear. It's post Endgame that the reviews and box office are dropping

That's relative to one's enjoyment.

After Phase 1, the Marvel Cinematic Universe became the Marvel Comedic Universe and the quality of their movies took a downward turn.

Just because they were more commercial it did not mean they were good. Many respected directors have criticized their quality.

Numbers don't lie. Reviews, scores, audience numbers, awards all went way up. Some of the accepted best films of all time came in phases 2 and 3. Much like with Valiant, your personal taste seems to run against popular opinion.

One, old, out of touch and probably jealous director criticized them and was roundly chastised for it.

I mean... Those are all just opinions. Aggregate opinions, but opinions. This is the Rotten Tomatoes effect - aggregate subjective ratings condenses into a number and some geeks think that makes it objective data.

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[lorddunlow]

Speaking of Rotten Tomatoes, I like to occasionally sort that site to filter to less than 30% and see how many of my favorite movies are there. My tastes clearly do not align with the masses most of the time.

Also, I've told my wife that my superpower is enjoying things. It's rare that I hate something. (I'm looking at you, Kathleen Kennedy Star Wars trilogy.)

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[ManofTheAtom]

Speaking of Rotten Tomatoes, I like to occasionally sort that site to filter to less than 30% and see how many of my favorite movies are there. My tastes clearly do not align with the masses most of the time.

Also, I've told my wife that my superpower is enjoying things. It's rare that I hate something. (I'm looking at you, Kathleen Kennedy Star Wars trilogy.)

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I tend to pay more attention to the audience score than the critic score, but RT is generally pointless.

Case in point, it only took five critic reviews to deem My Adventures with Superman 100% fresh. That is a flawed system.

[Ryan]

I think the branding issue is a really good point, especially if it is essentially the 4th (5th?) era/iteration of VALIANT.

Relaunching as a continuation or soft reboot has challenges - the audience has dwindled. Hard reboot has challenges - you lose some core readership who see a jumping off point. Hard reset to a past era has challenges - you alienate at least some of your readership who prefer VEI to VH1 (for instance) if you go that route, or lose audience have no affinity for an era fondly remembered by an ageing audience, it can feel backwards looking.

There is no clear answer for VALIANT due to the interruptions of publication, and as I see it, Alien have a hard road ahead. If they publish HCs of new and VEI-era material I don't have I'll buy them, but I think it will be a hard road to get there.

Yup, most definitely a hard road with the diminishing returns (diminishing attention) that outside people will give to yet another VALIANT relaunch/reboot whatever.

One thing I look at is franchises that have been able to successfully relaunch for new generations. Star Trek and Street Fighter come to mind for me, but I'm sure there's many others that have been able to build on what was successful initially and then make it relevant to a new audience without alienating the old audience. Not an easy tightrope to walk though.

The best chance for VALIANT was 2012 when all the excitement and energy had been built up after years of anticipation. Will be a much steeper hill to climb for VH5-Alien.