In Hindsight, does anyone wish VEI would've kept the OG VALIANT continuity?

[ManofTheAtom]

So, while X-O Bike can be ignored, Master Darque dying in the X-O Manowar suit likely could and should not.

I hadn't thought it through to this level, but I agree with you here. I'm also against the kind of cherry-picking that would ignore parts of the continuity in a contradictory way.

When I say ignore things, I mean not using them. For example, to ignore Darque dying in the X-O suit would be just not to use or mention Darque.

The other way of ignoring things would be to just use Darque without ever acknowledging that he died in continuity or explaining any of it. I am not arguing for this kind of cherry-picking.

I stand by that even the silliest things in Birthquake could be ignored or written around without contradicting or negating any of the published VH1 story.

I think some of the last 5 years of DMG comics have goofier and harder to integrate into VEI continuity aspects than Birthquake does into VH1. But that's a whole nother topic.

Yeah.

[ManofTheAtom]

Live-Action Gargoyles Series in Development at Disney+ (Report)

In the comments, presumably fans are already *SQUEE* about it being a reboot instead of a revival that picks up from where it left off.

If you asked them, I have no doubt they'd cherry pick what they'd like to keep and what they'd like to ignore.

[Ryan]

Live-Action Gargoyles Series in Development at Disney+ (Report)

In the comments, presumably fans are already *SQUEE* about it being a reboot instead of a revival that picks up from where it left off.

If you asked them, I have no doubt they'd cherry pick what they'd like to keep and what they'd like to ignore.

I think there are times when a reboot is appropriate.

For example, take Sectaurs. I'm a Sectaurs fan, and I wouldn't mind if the new Sectaurs is a reboot. Because there's never been a strong, established continuity. There's 5 episodes of an animated series, an 8 issue Marvel series, mini-comics that came with the toys, and a few children's books, and none of them follow the same continuity. If you like the Sectaurs, you like the toys and the potential for what it could be. In this case, I think a reboot would be the best option.

In the case of Valiant, there was a large cult fanbase specifically because they were fans of a specific continuity (VH1). The more I look at it, the more I think the reboot is the reason for how few fans are left.

[Chiclo]

Live-Action Gargoyles Series in Development at Disney+ (Report)

In the comments, presumably fans are already *SQUEE* about it being a reboot instead of a revival that picks up from where it left off.

If you asked them, I have no doubt they'd cherry pick what they'd like to keep and what they'd like to ignore.

They want to include season 3? Quarrymen and good Xanatos?

[ManofTheAtom]

Live-Action Gargoyles Series in Development at Disney+ (Report)

In the comments, presumably fans are already *SQUEE* about it being a reboot instead of a revival that picks up from where it left off.

If you asked them, I have no doubt they'd cherry pick what they'd like to keep and what they'd like to ignore.

I think there are times when a reboot is appropriate.

For example, take Sectaurs. I'm a Sectaurs fan, and I wouldn't mind if the new Sectaurs is a reboot. Because there's never been a strong, established continuity. There's 5 episodes of an animated series, an 8 issue Marvel series, mini-comics that came with the toys, and a few children's books, and none of them follow the same continuity. If you like the Sectaurs, you like the toys and the potential for what it could be. In this case, I think a reboot would be the best option.

In the case of Valiant, there was a large cult fanbase specifically because they were fans of a specific continuity (VH1). The more I look at it, the more I think the reboot is the reason for how few fans are left.

I still think continuing from where the original left off could have worked too, though.

[Ryan]

Live-Action Gargoyles Series in Development at Disney+ (Report)

In the comments, presumably fans are already *SQUEE* about it being a reboot instead of a revival that picks up from where it left off.

If you asked them, I have no doubt they'd cherry pick what they'd like to keep and what they'd like to ignore.

I think there are times when a reboot is appropriate.

For example, take Sectaurs. I'm a Sectaurs fan, and I wouldn't mind if the new Sectaurs is a reboot. Because there's never been a strong, established continuity. There's 5 episodes of an animated series, an 8 issue Marvel series, mini-comics that came with the toys, and a few children's books, and none of them follow the same continuity. If you like the Sectaurs, you like the toys and the potential for what it could be. In this case, I think a reboot would be the best option.

In the case of Valiant, there was a large cult fanbase specifically because they were fans of a specific continuity (VH1). The more I look at it, the more I think the reboot is the reason for how few fans are left.

I still think continuing from where the original left off could have worked too, though.

You mean picking the story back up in 1996 or whenever it left off? That would certainly have been a novel approach, and outside of the box. With proper execution, it could have worked.

That's not to say VEI didn't 'work'. They had a long run of publishing in a tough business, sold a ton of books, furthered their careers, made a Bloodshot movie, made a bunch of buyout money (at least some did). Who's to say they didn't succeed in what they set out to do?

All I'm saying is that the reboot destroyed the fanbase. The proof is right here. Look at how many discussions about the stories, fan fiction, fan projects, fan groups, etc. etc. that were going on here from 2000-2008. Then look at how much the actual VEI stories are discussed, and how much fan activity/interest there is now. It's not even close. And VEI/DMG has been publishing for 11 years, compared to only 5 for VH1.

[ManofTheAtom]

Live-Action Gargoyles Series in Development at Disney+ (Report)

In the comments, presumably fans are already *SQUEE* about it being a reboot instead of a revival that picks up from where it left off.

If you asked them, I have no doubt they'd cherry pick what they'd like to keep and what they'd like to ignore.

I think there are times when a reboot is appropriate.

For example, take Sectaurs. I'm a Sectaurs fan, and I wouldn't mind if the new Sectaurs is a reboot. Because there's never been a strong, established continuity. There's 5 episodes of an animated series, an 8 issue Marvel series, mini-comics that came with the toys, and a few children's books, and none of them follow the same continuity. If you like the Sectaurs, you like the toys and the potential for what it could be. In this case, I think a reboot would be the best option.

In the case of Valiant, there was a large cult fanbase specifically because they were fans of a specific continuity (VH1). The more I look at it, the more I think the reboot is the reason for how few fans are left.

I still think continuing from where the original left off could have worked too, though.

You mean picking the story back up in 1996 or whenever it left off? That would certainly have been a novel approach, and outside of the box. With proper execution, it could have worked.

That's not to say VEI didn't 'work'. They had a long run of publishing in a tough business, sold a ton of books, furthered their careers, made a Bloodshot movie, made a bunch of buyout money (at least some did). Who's to say they didn't succeed in what they set out to do?

All I'm saying is that the reboot destroyed the fanbase. The proof is right here. Look at how many discussions about the stories, fan fiction, fan projects, fan groups, etc. etc. that were going on here from 2000-2008. Then look at how much the actual VEI stories are discussed, and how much fan activity/interest there is now. It's not even close.

It could have very well been a "VALIANT: The Next Generation" scenario, with the story picking up 14 years or so after VALIANT ended.

I'm sure the reboot worked creatively, but I don't know how well it worked commercially in terms of building a fanbase. Once certainly exists, but the thought that it fizzled out faster than the original did is troubling.

[Ryan]

It could have very well been a "VALIANT: The Next Generation" scenario, with the story picking up 14 years or so after VALIANT ended.

Yes, thinking about it now(in hindsight lol), that's the route I would have taken. Valiant already had lineage characters (Shadowman, Rai, Geomancer), a comic named after a corporation (Harbinger), a comic named after a suit of armor (X-O), and 3 Immortal characters, there were so many interesting ways the comics could have been restarted 14 years later. All taking place in VH1 without being inaccessible to new readers or alienating the original fanbase, and still being modernized for current readers.

I'm sure the reboot worked creatively, but I don't know how well it worked commercially in terms of building a fanbase. Once certainly exists, but the thought that it fizzled out faster than the original did is troubling.

It is perplexing. To think that there's been more years of VEI (11) than there was years between Magnus #1 and Unity 2000 #3 (9) and yet the fanbase is at an all-time low. Crazy.

[ManofTheAtom]

It could have very well been a "VALIANT: The Next Generation" scenario, with the story picking up 14 years or so after VALIANT ended.

Yes, thinking about it now(in hindsight lol), that's the route I would have taken. Valiant already had lineage characters (Shadowman, Rai, Geomancer), a comic named after a corporation (Harbinger), a comic named after a suit of armor (X-O), and 3 Immortal characters, there were so many interesting ways the comics could have been restarted 14 years later. All taking place in VH1 without being inaccessible to new readers or alienating the original fanbase, and still being modernized for current readers.

Indeed.

I'm sure the reboot worked creatively, but I don't know how well it worked commercially in terms of building a fanbase. Once certainly exists, but the thought that it fizzled out faster than the original did is troubling.

It is perplexing. To think that there's been more years of VEI (11) than there was years between Magnus #1 and Unity 2000 #3 (9) and yet the fanbase is at an all-time low. Crazy.

Indeed again.

[Oxmyx]

I hate what VEI became in the Antos era, but there were some strong characters that came around (Harada of VEI I think is superior to Harada of VH1). It was good to see the great characters (Sunlight on Snow or Angela Vessel for example) vs the ones that were terrible (Kris, Psi-Lords).

Harbinger, if you're around you might be a good one to ask: what exactly was the Antos era of VEI? I wasn't paying much attention. I didn't buy anything after THE VISITOR and I think that was Fred Peirce who did that.

She went in at start of 2019...

Antos was a cancer...
....spends their time fighting twitter eggs and virtue singalling...delays...never finishing...

...it's all venomous politics through the whole timeline.

Harb, I really appreciate your reply, especially since I wasn't really paying attention (aside from Visitor).

I wanted to ask you about Visitor if I may. Do I understand correctly that it was started by one editor, then handed off to Antos who never finished it? It was such a disappointment. The covers were better than the books.

Second question, and an important one, did Antos ever let her politics leak into the books? I mean, aside from indirectly (hiring creatives who thought like her).

[The Harbinger]

For Visitor, that's pretty much it. It also changed hands after Antos left, so a pretty doomed comic schizophrenic writing and plot aside. As for:

"did Antos ever let her politics leak into the books? I mean, aside from indirectly (hiring creatives who thought like her)."

With Antos, there are 2 factors if we want to discuss just the content and none of the public noise on social media. I would like to say immersion is a critical part of comics, and when you pander and make things not like the real world or force a random conversation that seems unnatural, fans can lose interest. The argument is this is a work of fiction and why can't 50% of the friend group be gay if Thanos exists? I'd counter that by saying you can mess up your grounding by giving Jon Snow heat vision in his fictional universe and eventually make grounded fiction just crappy writing.

1) There's the visual dynamic in a visual medium driving off casual fans. New Ninjak as the egregious example and trying to make Punk Mambo happen. 99.9% of those people aren't going to pick up one of those issues over a Spiderman or Batman. Valiant 2019 just didn't even look interesting, and honestly there wasn't that much action in some of the post 2019 stories.

2) Then there's the writing pandering to an audience that doesn't really exist. Did you know Forgotten Queen is about a lesbian /s? It's only mentioned three times as much as a straight character's orientation in the run. Isn't Faith just so zany once she's removed from the Harbinger Renegade and Dysart quality? Livewire characterization and motivation being written almost like Vita herself lashing out against society.

Antos hired and valued writers that think and focus their work with this in mind:
https://twitter.com/definitelyvita/stat ... 0419144707

That definitely comes through the work no matter how people want to debate what exactly "woke" means.

[Oxmyx]

Harb, I appreciate the time you took. I'd heard a little bit about FORGOTTEN QUEEN but hadn't heard that tidbit. Honestly, I feel like I'm better off forgetting that DMG books exist. I prefer my Immoral Brothers sisterless.