Legacy Numbering

[ManofTheAtom]

I despise legacy numbering, it's what makes impossible to keep track of titles, in any format print or digital, single issue, trades, and hardcovers.

It can be preferable to multiple volumes, though. How many number ones does a character need?

I agree, except in the case of reboots that are in a new continuity. I'm glad that VH2 Donovan Wylie X-O was a new number one instead of being X-O #69.

In my mind, all the VEI X-O's should be Volume 3 since it's the same continuity. So X-O Unconquered #5 would be X-O #90 by my count. Almost to #100 with legacy numbering. The new format might throw this off though.

When DC rebooted Superman in the '80s, they renamed "Superman" to "Adventures of Superman" but kept the same numbering despite it being about a different version of the character.

When they rebooted again after Infinite Crisis, they restored the title's name but still kept the numbering despite it still being about a different version of the character.

Then when they rebooted again after Rebirth, they brought back the title and numbering despite it again being about yet another version of the character.

Keeping the title and numbering can work regardless of continuity/content.

You just want DC Lite. Great taste, less filling.

It's not the same, lol.

[GammaJosh]

Legacy numbering would be a draw for me but only if it's done Marvel style summing up all the published issues. Assigning numbers for months when nothing was published actually offends me as a collector. If there's legacy numbering that means you should be able to put all the issues in a box in order with no gaps. I feel like part of my brain would be forever searching for non-existent issues.

Because of DC's New 52, we'll never have about five years-worth of issues of Action Comics, Detective Comics, and other titles they cancelled when they did that stunt.

When they brought those series back, they restarted the numbering from what would have been the regular issue of those series released that month. So, instead of continuing Action Comics from where it left off before The New 52 (#904 being the last issue and #905 being the one that should have followed) they restarted it with #957.

Wait, are you saying the numbers don't add up correctly, or are you saying they shouldn't have counted the New 52 issues at all when they resumed the original numbering? Adding the numbers together is the definition of "legacy numbering" as far as I understand it, and I have no problem with that. You do have those five years worth of issues. Put them in a box between #904 and #957 with a title divider. I don't see the problem. Your OCD may be worse than mine!

[ManofTheAtom]

Legacy numbering would be a draw for me but only if it's done Marvel style summing up all the published issues. Assigning numbers for months when nothing was published actually offends me as a collector. If there's legacy numbering that means you should be able to put all the issues in a box in order with no gaps. I feel like part of my brain would be forever searching for non-existent issues.

Because of DC's New 52, we'll never have about five years-worth of issues of Action Comics, Detective Comics, and other titles they cancelled when they did that stunt.

When they brought those series back, they restarted the numbering from what would have been the regular issue of those series released that month. So, instead of continuing Action Comics from where it left off before The New 52 (#904 being the last issue and #905 being the one that should have followed) they restarted it with #957.

Wait, are you saying the numbers don't add up correctly, or are you saying they shouldn't have counted the New 52 issues at all when they resumed the original numbering? Adding the numbers together is the definition of "legacy numbering" as far as I understand it, and I have no problem with that. You do have those five years worth of issues. Put them in a box between #904 and #957 with a title divider. I don't see the problem. Your OCD may be worse than mine!

Heh.

In terms of content, maybe, but in terms of numbering, we'll never have issues with 905 through 956 printed on the cover. At least not as of yet.

When DC printed 957, that was more speculative than legacy ("this is what we'd have published this month had we not cancelled it!").

I am saying that they should not have counted those five years' worth of the New 52 when they resumed publishing, yeah.

[Chiclo]

The numbers for Action and Detective leave 5% of the run that was skipped over, rather than an estimated 60%+ of the run of X-O (haven't run the exact numbers, the 150 issues is an estimate, 68 + 50 + a few minis, Yearbook, VH2, etc) spread across many volumes and two to four publishers.

[ManofTheAtom]

The numbers for Action and Detective leave 5% of the run that was skipped over, rather than an estimated 60%+ of the run of X-O (haven't run the exact numbers, the 150 issues is an estimate, 68 + 50 + a few minis, Yearbook, VH2, etc) spread across many volumes and two to four publishers.

Does it make much difference, though? In principle, it's the same concept, speculative numbering. In one case it was five years, in another it's 28 years (from 1996 -- I think that's when 68 came out -- to 2024).

Whether Alien went with 150 or 400, it can only benefit them, not hurt them.

[ManofTheAtom]

In an ideal scenario, Alien publishes X-O Manowar #150 or #400, and when people see it at the store or online, they wonder how come they've never heard of a comic book with so many issues before ("How can there be so many issues and this is the first I'm seeing it?!"), which leads them to seek them out and learn more about it.

[GammaJosh]

The numbers for Action and Detective leave 5% of the run that was skipped over, rather than an estimated 60%+ of the run of X-O (haven't run the exact numbers, the 150 issues is an estimate, 68 + 50 + a few minis, Yearbook, VH2, etc) spread across many volumes and two to four publishers.

Does it make much difference, though? In principle, it's the same concept, speculative numbering. In one case it was five years, in another it's 28 years (from 1996 -- I think that's when 68 came out -- to 2024).

Whether Alien went with 150 or 400, it can only benefit them, not hurt them.

"Speculative" sounds like it would be adding up months regardless of whether anything was published. When DC published Action #957 (or whatever), there were actually 956 previous issues of Action Comics. I understand how not having the sequential numbers on some of the issues could offend someone's sensibilities though.

[ManofTheAtom]

The numbers for Action and Detective leave 5% of the run that was skipped over, rather than an estimated 60%+ of the run of X-O (haven't run the exact numbers, the 150 issues is an estimate, 68 + 50 + a few minis, Yearbook, VH2, etc) spread across many volumes and two to four publishers.

Does it make much difference, though? In principle, it's the same concept, speculative numbering. In one case it was five years, in another it's 28 years (from 1996 -- I think that's when 68 came out -- to 2024).

Whether Alien went with 150 or 400, it can only benefit them, not hurt them.

"Speculative" sounds like it would be adding up months regardless of whether anything was published. When DC published Action #957 (or whatever), there were actually 956 previous issues of Action Comics. I understand how not having the sequential numbers on some of the issues could offend someone's sensibilities though.

The situation with both volumes of Action Comics would be like adding up the 68 issues of X-O VH 1 with the 18 or so of X-O VH 2 and however many issues of however many volumes there are of X-O VEI.

[ManofTheAtom]

When DC gave Barry Allen his own series, it wasn't with a new number one but with the next issue of what would have been the previous series starring Jay Garrick.

The Garrick title, Flash Comics, ended in 1949 and had a total of 104 issues, then DC started it up again as The Flash in 1958 with issue #105.

Same numbering, with two different characters who called themselves the Flash (akin to Aric and Donovan) using slightly different titles.

[Chiclo]

Even with variants, I don’t think there are 400 different X-O issues in the world outside my window.

[ManofTheAtom]

Even with variants, I don’t think there are 400 different X-O issues in the world outside my window.

Never said there were. That would be the Quantum & Woody #32-esque number of issues.

[Chiclo]

Let's do a serious tally of X-O issues.

Per the ValiantFans Price Guide and mycomicshop-

VH1 - 74 issues
X-O Database, 1 issue
X-O Manowar 1 - 68, 1/2, 0 - 70 issues
Yearbook 1 issue
X-O/Iron Man 2 issues

VH2 23 issues
X-O vol 2 1-21
X-O Manowar Retailer Review 1 issue
Fan Edition

VEI 98 issues
X-O Manowar 1-50, 0 51 issues
X-O 25th Anniversary Special 1 issue
2016 Annual
2017 series 1-26, sneak preview, FCBD 28 issues
2020 series 1-9
4001 AD X-O Manowar 1 issue
Book of Death, Fall of X-O Manowar 1 issue
Unconquered 1-6 6 issues

Maybe/sorta/apocrypha
2012 flipbook with Harbinger
Commander Trill one-shot
Dollar Debut (x2)

So the number is closer to 200! 195 by my reckoning, not including the apocrypha.

Maybe... we include the Sneak Peak?

[ManofTheAtom]

Let's do a serious tally of X-O issues.

Per the ValiantFans Price Guide and mycomicshop-

VH1 - 74 issues
X-O Database, 1 issue
X-O Manowar 1 - 68, 1/2, 0 - 70 issues
Yearbook 1 issue
X-O/Iron Man 2 issues

VH2 23 issues
X-O vol 2 1-21
X-O Manowar Retailer Review 1 issue
Fan Edition

VEI 98 issues
X-O Manowar 1-50, 0 51 issues
X-O 25th Anniversary Special 1 issue
2016 Annual
2017 series 1-26, sneak preview, FCBD 28 issues
2020 series 1-9
4001 AD X-O Manowar 1 issue
Book of Death, Fall of X-O Manowar 1 issue
Unconquered 1-6 6 issues

Maybe/sorta/apocrypha
2012 flipbook with Harbinger
Commander Trill one-shot
Dollar Debut (x2)

So the number is closer to 200! 195 by my reckoning, not including the apocrypha.

Maybe... we include the Sneak Peak?

I'd only include the numbered issues, from 0 to 68 for volume one, from 1 to 21 for volume two, and so on. Yearbooks, special issues, etc, are separate.

[GammaJosh]

The numbers for Action and Detective leave 5% of the run that was skipped over, rather than an estimated 60%+ of the run of X-O (haven't run the exact numbers, the 150 issues is an estimate, 68 + 50 + a few minis, Yearbook, VH2, etc) spread across many volumes and two to four publishers.

Does it make much difference, though? In principle, it's the same concept, speculative numbering. In one case it was five years, in another it's 28 years (from 1996 -- I think that's when 68 came out -- to 2024).

Whether Alien went with 150 or 400, it can only benefit them, not hurt them.

"Speculative" sounds like it would be adding up months regardless of whether anything was published. When DC published Action #957 (or whatever), there were actually 956 previous issues of Action Comics. I understand how not having the sequential numbers on some of the issues could offend someone's sensibilities though.

The situation with both volumes of Action Comics would be like adding up the 68 issues of X-O VH 1 with the 18 or so of X-O VH 2 and however many issues of however many volumes there are of X-O VEI.

Yes, exactly. That's how Marvel does it. That *is* "legacy numbering". Many of the earlier re-numbered volumes don't have the legacy numbering on the cover, but they're still counted. It doesn't bug me.

[Chiclo]

So, 174. Would you think to include Unconquered? That would push it to 180.

[GammaJosh]

I'd only include the numbered issues, from 0 to 68 for volume one, from 1 to 21 for volume two, and so on. Yearbooks, special issues, etc, are separate.

Agree. Count the regular series issues only. If they had continued with only one volume those annuals, yearbooks, specials, etc. wouldn't be counted, so you don't count them in the legacy numbering either. X-O Manowar Unconquered is X-O legacy #179.

[GammaJosh]

So, 174. Would you think to include Unconquered? That would push it to 180.

Marvel does count series with slightly different titles in their legacy numbering. For example "Hulk" in the Incredible Hulk legacy numbering. If it's the main ongoing for that character at the time, it probably counts.

[ManofTheAtom]

Yes, exactly. That's how Marvel does it. That *is* "legacy numbering". Many of the earlier re-numbered volumes don't have the legacy numbering on the cover, but they're still counted. It doesn't bug me.

So, 174. Would you think to include Unconquered? That would push it to 180.

Agree. Count the regular series issues only. If they had continued with only one volume those annuals, yearbooks, specials, etc. wouldn't be counted, so you don't count them in the legacy numbering either. X-O Manowar Unconquered is X-O legacy #179.

Marvel does count series with slightly different titles in their legacy numbering. For example "Hulk" in the Incredible Hulk legacy numbering. If it's the main ongoing for that character at the time, it probably counts.

Indeed.

[ManofTheAtom]

Let's throw a curveball into this.

Say that at some point in the future Alien wanted to do a crossover between the three different iterations of the VALIANT characters (VH 1, VH 2, and VEI).

What if that crossover was told across the next issue of each of their respective titles?

Part one of the X-O Manowar crossover appeared in X-O Manowar Vol. 1 #69 starring VH 1 Aric Dacia, the second part in X-O Manowar Vol. 2 #22 starring VH 2 Donovan Wiley, and part three in X-O Manowar Vol. 3 #51 starring VEI Aric of Dacia.

And so on and so forth with the other variants.

In such a scenario, which would be preferable; speculative numbering (which gives us the issue number had the series not ceased publication starting with issue one of Volume 1) or legacy numbering (which adds all existing issues of all existing volumes to get to a total)?

I think the former.

[grendeljd]

Yes, exactly. That's how Marvel does it. That *is* "legacy numbering". Many of the earlier re-numbered volumes don't have the legacy numbering on the cover, but they're still counted. It doesn't bug me.

So, 174. Would you think to include Unconquered? That would push it to 180.

Agree. Count the regular series issues only. If they had continued with only one volume those annuals, yearbooks, specials, etc. wouldn't be counted, so you don't count them in the legacy numbering either. X-O Manowar Unconquered is X-O legacy #179.

Marvel does count series with slightly different titles in their legacy numbering. For example "Hulk" in the Incredible Hulk legacy numbering. If it's the main ongoing for that character at the time, it probably counts.

Indeed.

I primarily agree with these points as far as doing legacy numbering. Only count the regular issues published (even if they’re only little 4-to-6 issue mini-series), no annuals or specials/one-shots (they always had separate numbers even in the era of long-running series).

I grew up on large-numbered runs of most of my favourite comics and would still prefer to see that kind of system in place - it wasn’t confusing or off-putting to me as a kid (in fact it made me want to hunt down older comics even more), so I don’t really know why people have such a hard time with it over the past decade or two.

However, I have also grown accustomed to the modern trend of legacy numbering and I do enjoy it very much when it is fully embraced & consistent.

I kind of wish it was used more often across the board, to be honest - I really think it is a ‘best-of-both-worlds’ solution that should make every kind of collector as well as marketing/sales departments happy.

As far as Valiant goes though, I would be in support of legacy numbering that only begins with the 2012 VEI era, as it has established itself as a completely new & separate continuity that only pulls inspiration from either older iterations.

[ManofTheAtom]

Yes, exactly. That's how Marvel does it. That *is* "legacy numbering". Many of the earlier re-numbered volumes don't have the legacy numbering on the cover, but they're still counted. It doesn't bug me.

So, 174. Would you think to include Unconquered? That would push it to 180.

Agree. Count the regular series issues only. If they had continued with only one volume those annuals, yearbooks, specials, etc. wouldn't be counted, so you don't count them in the legacy numbering either. X-O Manowar Unconquered is X-O legacy #179.

Marvel does count series with slightly different titles in their legacy numbering. For example "Hulk" in the Incredible Hulk legacy numbering. If it's the main ongoing for that character at the time, it probably counts.

Indeed.

I primarily agree with these points as far as doing legacy numbering. Only count the regular issues published (even if they’re only little 4-to-6 issue mini-series), no annuals or specials/one-shots (they always had separate numbers even in the era of long-running series).

I grew up on large-numbered runs of most of my favourite comics and would still prefer to see that kind of system in place - it wasn’t confusing or off-putting to me as a kid (in fact it made me want to hunt down older comics even more), so I don’t really know why people have such a hard time with it over the past decade or two.

However, I have also grown accustomed to the modern trend of legacy numbering and I do enjoy it very much when it is fully embraced & consistent.

I kind of wish it was used more often across the board, to be honest - I really think it is a ‘best-of-both-worlds’ solution that should make every kind of collector as well as marketing/sales departments happy.

As far as Valiant goes though, I would be in support of legacy numbering that only begins with the 2012 VEI era, as it has established itself as a completely new & separate continuity that only pulls inspiration from either older iterations.

That wouldn't get us anywhere close to 100 issues, though.

[Chiclo]

Yes, exactly. That's how Marvel does it. That *is* "legacy numbering". Many of the earlier re-numbered volumes don't have the legacy numbering on the cover, but they're still counted. It doesn't bug me.

So, 174. Would you think to include Unconquered? That would push it to 180.

Agree. Count the regular series issues only. If they had continued with only one volume those annuals, yearbooks, specials, etc. wouldn't be counted, so you don't count them in the legacy numbering either. X-O Manowar Unconquered is X-O legacy #179.

Marvel does count series with slightly different titles in their legacy numbering. For example "Hulk" in the Incredible Hulk legacy numbering. If it's the main ongoing for that character at the time, it probably counts.

Indeed.

I primarily agree with these points as far as doing legacy numbering. Only count the regular issues published (even if they’re only little 4-to-6 issue mini-series), no annuals or specials/one-shots (they always had separate numbers even in the era of long-running series).

I grew up on large-numbered runs of most of my favourite comics and would still prefer to see that kind of system in place - it wasn’t confusing or off-putting to me as a kid (in fact it made me want to hunt down older comics even more), so I don’t really know why people have such a hard time with it over the past decade or two.

However, I have also grown accustomed to the modern trend of legacy numbering and I do enjoy it very much when it is fully embraced & consistent.

I kind of wish it was used more often across the board, to be honest - I really think it is a ‘best-of-both-worlds’ solution that should make every kind of collector as well as marketing/sales departments happy.

As far as Valiant goes though, I would be in support of legacy numbering that only begins with the 2012 VEI era, as it has established itself as a completely new & separate continuity that only pulls inspiration from either older iterations.

That wouldn't get us anywhere close to 100 issues, though.

88, about a year away from 100.

[ManofTheAtom]

Yes, exactly. That's how Marvel does it. That *is* "legacy numbering". Many of the earlier re-numbered volumes don't have the legacy numbering on the cover, but they're still counted. It doesn't bug me.

So, 174. Would you think to include Unconquered? That would push it to 180.

Agree. Count the regular series issues only. If they had continued with only one volume those annuals, yearbooks, specials, etc. wouldn't be counted, so you don't count them in the legacy numbering either. X-O Manowar Unconquered is X-O legacy #179.

Marvel does count series with slightly different titles in their legacy numbering. For example "Hulk" in the Incredible Hulk legacy numbering. If it's the main ongoing for that character at the time, it probably counts.

Indeed.

I primarily agree with these points as far as doing legacy numbering. Only count the regular issues published (even if they’re only little 4-to-6 issue mini-series), no annuals or specials/one-shots (they always had separate numbers even in the era of long-running series).

I grew up on large-numbered runs of most of my favourite comics and would still prefer to see that kind of system in place - it wasn’t confusing or off-putting to me as a kid (in fact it made me want to hunt down older comics even more), so I don’t really know why people have such a hard time with it over the past decade or two.

However, I have also grown accustomed to the modern trend of legacy numbering and I do enjoy it very much when it is fully embraced & consistent.

I kind of wish it was used more often across the board, to be honest - I really think it is a ‘best-of-both-worlds’ solution that should make every kind of collector as well as marketing/sales departments happy.

As far as Valiant goes though, I would be in support of legacy numbering that only begins with the 2012 VEI era, as it has established itself as a completely new & separate continuity that only pulls inspiration from either older iterations.

That wouldn't get us anywhere close to 100 issues, though.

88, about a year away from 100.

All else said aside, the most VALIANT-esque thing Alien could do is speculative numbering, a la Quantum & Woody #32.

Whose idea was that? Black's, Marts', or Banmally's?

Since Walter Black is still at VALIANT to this day, if it was his idea, then they'd just be redoing something he originally came up with.

[sonicdan]

VH1 - 74 issues
X-O Database, 1 issue
X-O Manowar 1 - 68, 1/2, 0 - 70 issues
Yearbook 1 issue
X-O/Iron Man 2 issues

They snuck in another one with X-O #50 having two issues (#50-X and #50-O)

[ManofTheAtom]

VH1 - 74 issues
X-O Database, 1 issue
X-O Manowar 1 - 68, 1/2, 0 - 70 issues
Yearbook 1 issue
X-O/Iron Man 2 issues

They snuck in another one with X-O #50 having two issues (#50-X and #50-O)

True.