Multiple Canons (Bad Subject Line, I Know)

[ManofTheAtom]

... blah blah, what if they, blah blah, ignore the GK3... yadda

The people who would be interested, are very few.
Of those few, most acknowledge the need for the GK3.
Why put something out that will pizz off most of the tiny audience it could have?

Does someone at Valiant ask you to test these bad ideas for them?

No one asks me to do anything.

If the GK3 characters are so important, why did Dynamite cancel all their series?

[ManofTheAtom]

To further this conversation, I'm quoting some posts from this thread Story idea for VEI comic launch from 2010:

You could always put in a story that Jack traveled back in time to complete some task knowing that he would die but would sacrifice himself to stop an evil of some sort, maybe Darque trying to mess with the time stream to keep the heroes from coming pack in 2010... or have it to do with Darque and the changing of the millennium?

The paradox of Jack showing up in 2010 instead of dying in 1999 could be used as the event that causes the change in continuity. If the Darque Power was supposed to not exist after 1999, then it shows up 11 years after it's gone . . .

Interesting

How about this...

What if Jack DOES die in 1999, but he first lived until, say, 2030 or something? He goes back in time and his "future" self dies in 1999.


(Ok, ok, I'm gonna go lay down now.)

Interesting x2

In all seriousness, the first thing I'd do is ask Bob Hall how he planned the 1999 bit and see if that could be worked in. If not, cool; them's the breaks, but if so . . .

Check out this recent interview (4 months ago) with Bob where he talks about these very things. https://youtu.be/9IuVMnCCXjQ?si=MtA8eBhmu9gMfgGq&t=5770 Shadowman stuff starts around 1hr36min mark

Although I like a lot of the ideas here, I think there's an easier way. Just rewrite the epilogue of Deathmate so that Solar and Void hook up, two universes die, and Darque absorbs all that necromantic energy so he can create his own universe. Since it's doubtful that he would create a universe containing someone as powerful as him, Solar wouldn't exist.

But then I doubt a lot of the other characters would exist either.

Burrito Boy with another interesting zinger

Jack died when he jumped off the buildings. Maybe more likely than not, someone would bring him back to life in time for the 99 event.

What's interesting is that the text you cite says that the dark vested hero Shadowman dies ridding the world of the Darque Power. It doesn't say it was Jack Boniface.

Since Shadowmen are part of a legacy, maybe it was whomever picked up his mantle after he died when he jumped off the ledge that dies in 99.

[slack]

If the GK3 characters are so important, why did Dynamite cancel all their series?

[Ryan]

We know Solar exiles himself after he splits into the Explorer, but that doesn't happen until the 2060s I think.

That seems to be his only active contribution to Rai #0. He isn't really connected to any other event mentioned in it, is he?

Exactly. And even though he's in the shot of Geoff recruiting heroes on the spaceship before the 1999 event, the fact that a Shadowman died leads me to believe that Solar didn't get very involved for whatever reason.

[Ryan]

Jack died when he jumped off the buildings. Maybe more likely than not, someone would bring him back to life in time for the 99 event.

What's interesting is that the text you cite says that the dark vested hero Shadowman dies ridding the world of the Darque Power. It doesn't say it was Jack Boniface.

Since Shadowmen are part of a legacy, maybe it was whomever picked up his mantle after he died when he jumped off the ledge that dies in 99.

Well we never saw him die. Even Bob Hall says he had a plan involving Time arcs and maybe Sandria Darque that would've saved him before he hit the ground.

Also if you remember Maxim St. James had been brought to the present day, so he could easily have been the Shadowman that died in '99.

[Ryan]

In all seriousness, the first thing I'd do is ask Bob Hall how he planned the 1999 bit and see if that could be worked in. If not, cool; them's the breaks, but if so . . .

Jack jumping off the building was forced due to the series being cancelled, so I also wonder what the original plan was going to be for Shadowman in 1999. I think Maxim St. James was brought into the present day to give them options. It's possible they hadn't decided exactly what they were going to do.

[leonmallett]

Although I like a lot of the ideas here, I think there's an easier way. Just rewrite the epilogue of Deathmate so that Solar and Void hook up, two universes die, and Darque absorbs all that necromantic energy so he can create his own universe. Since it's doubtful that he would create a universe containing someone as powerful as him, Solar wouldn't exist.

But then I doubt a lot of the other characters would exist either.

Burrito Boy with another interesting zinger

Overlooks the necessity of getting DC's permission for Void...

[Ryan]

Although I like a lot of the ideas here, I think there's an easier way. Just rewrite the epilogue of Deathmate so that Solar and Void hook up, two universes die, and Darque absorbs all that necromantic energy so he can create his own universe. Since it's doubtful that he would create a universe containing someone as powerful as him, Solar wouldn't exist.

But then I doubt a lot of the other characters would exist either.

Burrito Boy with another interesting zinger

Overlooks the necessity of getting DC's permission for Void...

That's true, Deathmate now contains characters that are spread out between a ton of different owners. Liefeld, Andrew Rev (has Youngblood), Top Cow, DC (Wildstorm), Dreamworks (Gold Key), DMG (Valiant), etc. I can't imagine it can ever be reprinted.

[Chiclo]

Although I like a lot of the ideas here, I think there's an easier way. Just rewrite the epilogue of Deathmate so that Solar and Void hook up, two universes die, and Darque absorbs all that necromantic energy so he can create his own universe. Since it's doubtful that he would create a universe containing someone as powerful as him, Solar wouldn't exist.

But then I doubt a lot of the other characters would exist either.

Burrito Boy with another interesting zinger

Overlooks the necessity of getting DC's permission for Void...

That's true, Deathmate now contains characters that are spread out between a ton of different owners. Liefeld, Andrew Rev (has Youngblood), Top Cow, DC (Wildstorm), Dreamworks (Gold Key), DMG (Valiant), etc. I can't imagine it can ever be reprinted.

It wouldn’t need to be reprinted for a good long while.

[Ryan]

Although I like a lot of the ideas here, I think there's an easier way. Just rewrite the epilogue of Deathmate so that Solar and Void hook up, two universes die, and Darque absorbs all that necromantic energy so he can create his own universe. Since it's doubtful that he would create a universe containing someone as powerful as him, Solar wouldn't exist.

But then I doubt a lot of the other characters would exist either.

Burrito Boy with another interesting zinger

Overlooks the necessity of getting DC's permission for Void...

That's true, Deathmate now contains characters that are spread out between a ton of different owners. Liefeld, Andrew Rev (has Youngblood), Top Cow, DC (Wildstorm), Dreamworks (Gold Key), DMG (Valiant), etc. I can't imagine it can ever be reprinted.

It wouldn’t need to be reprinted for a good long while.

LOL so true. Unsold copies of Deathmate will outlast us all.

[ManofTheAtom]

Jack died when he jumped off the buildings. Maybe more likely than not, someone would bring him back to life in time for the 99 event.

What's interesting is that the text you cite says that the dark vested hero Shadowman dies ridding the world of the Darque Power. It doesn't say it was Jack Boniface.

Since Shadowmen are part of a legacy, maybe it was whomever picked up his mantle after he died when he jumped off the ledge that dies in 99.

Well we never saw him die. Even Bob Hall says he had a plan involving Time arcs and maybe Sandria Darque that would've saved him before he hit the ground.

Also if you remember Maxim St. James had been brought to the present day, so he could easily have been the Shadowman that died in '99.

In all seriousness, the first thing I'd do is ask Bob Hall how he planned the 1999 bit and see if that could be worked in. If not, cool; them's the breaks, but if so . . .

Jack jumping off the building was forced due to the series being cancelled, so I also wonder what the original plan was going to be for Shadowman in 1999. I think Maxim St. James was brought into the present day to give them options. It's possible they hadn't decided exactly what they were going to do.

Keep in mind that the Ennis run was originally intended for VH 1 before Nicieza came along, so those four issues could be interpreted as taking place in that continuity.

[Ryan]

Jack died when he jumped off the buildings. Maybe more likely than not, someone would bring him back to life in time for the 99 event.

What's interesting is that the text you cite says that the dark vested hero Shadowman dies ridding the world of the Darque Power. It doesn't say it was Jack Boniface.

Since Shadowmen are part of a legacy, maybe it was whomever picked up his mantle after he died when he jumped off the ledge that dies in 99.

Well we never saw him die. Even Bob Hall says he had a plan involving Time arcs and maybe Sandria Darque that would've saved him before he hit the ground.

Also if you remember Maxim St. James had been brought to the present day, so he could easily have been the Shadowman that died in '99.

In all seriousness, the first thing I'd do is ask Bob Hall how he planned the 1999 bit and see if that could be worked in. If not, cool; them's the breaks, but if so . . .

Jack jumping off the building was forced due to the series being cancelled, so I also wonder what the original plan was going to be for Shadowman in 1999. I think Maxim St. James was brought into the present day to give them options. It's possible they hadn't decided exactly what they were going to do.

Keep in mind that the Ennis run was originally intended for VH 1 before Nicieza came along, so those four issues could be interpreted as taking place in that continuity.

Yeah I thought about that. There are contradictions that spring to mind, of course the whole 'Jack died with a sax stuffed up his ___' (*puke*) instead of jumping off the building is the first one. I'd have to read those again to what fits and what doesn't.

I definitely think a Michael LeRoi/Zero Shadowman would be a cool addition to VH1 and Jack's New Orleans. I don't think that Deadside and all the over-the-top Voodoo fantasy stuff fits in VH1.

[Ryan]

So by my count there are 3 versions of the 1999 event.

1. Original VH1 version - Only hinted at in Rai 0. No known plans exist. VH1 ended in 1996.
2. VH2 planned version - The Final Solution. Many plans were made, going to merge VH2 with VH1? Some elements of the story were used in the last issue of Troublemakers?
3. Unity 2000 version - The Valiant Deaths of Jack Boniface. Alexander Darque sends a guy with powerful sunglasses to kill every Jack Boniface from every parallel reality. I forget the details of what his grand plan was.

Does that cover everything known about the 1999 event, or am I missing something?

[ManofTheAtom]

So by my count there are 3 versions of the 1999 event.

1. Original VH1 version - Only hinted at in Rai 0. No known plans exist. VH1 ended in 1996.
2. VH2 planned version - The Final Solution. Many plans were made, going to merge VH2 with VH1? Some elements of the story were used in the last issue of Troublemakers?
3. Unity 2000 version - The Valiant Deaths of Jack Boniface. Alexander Darque sends a guy with powerful sunglasses to kill every Jack Boniface from every parallel reality. I forget the details of what his grand plan was.

Does that cover everything known about the 1999 event, or am I missing something?

Final Solution is not the same as what Nicieza intended for 1999, which involved a fan vote to decide which versions of which characters stayed.

Final Solution was what was summed up in Troublemakers #19, Harada using an X-O Manowar armor to wage war on Harbingers and the like.

Generally speaking, pretty much everything that what is glimpsed in Rai #0 appeared in other comics. Off the top of my head, the only two events we didn't see were the deaths of Archer and Jack.

[ManofTheAtom]

Jack died when he jumped off the buildings. Maybe more likely than not, someone would bring him back to life in time for the 99 event.

What's interesting is that the text you cite says that the dark vested hero Shadowman dies ridding the world of the Darque Power. It doesn't say it was Jack Boniface.

Since Shadowmen are part of a legacy, maybe it was whomever picked up his mantle after he died when he jumped off the ledge that dies in 99.

Well we never saw him die. Even Bob Hall says he had a plan involving Time arcs and maybe Sandria Darque that would've saved him before he hit the ground.

Also if you remember Maxim St. James had been brought to the present day, so he could easily have been the Shadowman that died in '99.

In all seriousness, the first thing I'd do is ask Bob Hall how he planned the 1999 bit and see if that could be worked in. If not, cool; them's the breaks, but if so . . .

Jack jumping off the building was forced due to the series being cancelled, so I also wonder what the original plan was going to be for Shadowman in 1999. I think Maxim St. James was brought into the present day to give them options. It's possible they hadn't decided exactly what they were going to do.

Keep in mind that the Ennis run was originally intended for VH 1 before Nicieza came along, so those four issues could be interpreted as taking place in that continuity.

Yeah I thought about that. There are contradictions that spring to mind, of course the whole 'Jack died with a sax stuffed up his ___' (*puke*) instead of jumping off the building is the first one. I'd have to read those again to what fits and what doesn't.

I definitely think a Michael LeRoi/Zero Shadowman would be a cool addition to VH1 and Jack's New Orleans. I don't think that Deadside and all the over-the-top Voodoo fantasy stuff fits in VH1.

Indeed.

[Ryan]

Final Solution is not the same as what Nicieza intended for 1999, which involved a fan vote to decide which versions of which characters stayed.

Final Solution was what was summed up in Troublemakers #19, Harada using an X-O Manowar armor to wage war on Harbingers and the like.

Cool, thanks for the info. My knowledge about late VH2 is pretty sketchy

Generally speaking, pretty much everything that what is glimpsed in Rai #0 appeared in other comics. Off the top of my head, the only two events we didn't see were the deaths of Archer and Jack.

That would be cool to compile all the times a scene from Rai #0 was shown in a later comic, there were quite a few. The period between 1999 death of Shadowman and 2028 'death' of Bloodshot is pretty empty though. Just Archer dying in 2020 while rescuing Armstrong from Harada.

[ManofTheAtom]

Final Solution is not the same as what Nicieza intended for 1999, which involved a fan vote to decide which versions of which characters stayed.

Final Solution was what was summed up in Troublemakers #19, Harada using an X-O Manowar armor to wage war on Harbingers and the like.

Cool, thanks for the info. My knowledge about late VH2 is pretty sketchy

Generally speaking, pretty much everything that what is glimpsed in Rai #0 appeared in other comics. Off the top of my head, the only two events we didn't see were the deaths of Archer and Jack.

That would be cool to compile all the times a scene from Rai #0 was shown in a later comic, there were quite a few. The period between 1999 death of Shadowman and 2028 'death' of Bloodshot is pretty empty though. Just Archer dying in 2020 while rescuing Armstrong from Harada.

Yeah, pretty much.

I did it, most likely than not, more than once. It must be somewhere on this board.