VH 1: The End

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Re: VH 1: The End

Post by Ryan »

ManofTheAtom wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2024 8:33:46 pm What if, in order to accommodate the ending of Bloodshot #51 into Rai #0 it turned out that Angelo did die at the end of the former and the Bloodshot that dies in the latter was someone else, one of these other heroes?
Except that we see the Angelo Mortalli Bloodshot die in Rai 0. You're the one who says 'if it's not Rai 0, it's not VH1' :?

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Re: VH 1: The End

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Ryan wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2024 9:13:48 am
ManofTheAtom wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2024 7:59:13 am The nanites were made in Japan, heh.
And? In 4000 Japan is a gigantic computer filled with robots, you're telling me they couldn't replicate nanomachines from the 90's?
What I was humorously saying is that the reason they existed in the '90s is because they were made in Japan.

Why they couldn't be replicated in the 41st Century likely has to do with the plans getting lost through time. They were, after all, the IP of the Iwatsu Corporation, which could have been destroyed along with all their research during the Harbinger Wars.
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Re: VH 1: The End

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Ryan wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2024 9:39:46 am
ManofTheAtom wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2024 8:33:46 pm What if, in order to accommodate the ending of Bloodshot #51 into Rai #0 it turned out that Angelo did die at the end of the former and the Bloodshot that dies in the latter was someone else, one of these other heroes?
Except that we see the Angelo Mortalli Bloodshot die in Rai 0. You're the one who says 'if it's not Rai 0, it's not VH1' :?
We see Bloodshot die. Do we know for an absolute fact that he was Angelo?
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Re: VH 1: The End

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ManofTheAtom wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2024 10:30:11 am What I was humorously saying is that the reason they existed in the '90s is because they were made in Japan.

Why they couldn't be replicated in the 41st Century likely has to do with the plans getting lost through time. They were, after all, the IP of the Iwatsu Corporation, which could have been destroyed along with all their research during the Harbinger Wars.
So in 2000 years of robotics technology advancements, including widespread space travel, they can't replicate a 90's technology of putting nanomachines in the bloodsteam? K, that's fine if it works for you but there's no in-story explanation that makes it work for me. But I accept it as 'comic book science' and can still enjoy it, like many things in VH1 that don't hold up if you think about them too much.
ManofTheAtom wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2024 10:30:38 am We see Bloodshot die. Do we know for an absolute fact that he was Angelo?
It was drawn to be the same Bloodshot character from the beginning of the comic. But yeah it's just a drawing in a comic book, so it really could be anything we want it to be. That's like saying the Aric Dacia that died might just be a different guy also named Aric who also happens to have an X-O armor. At that point why even go by the comic at all?

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Re: VH 1: The End

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Ryan wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2024 10:51:31 am So in 2000 years of robotics technology advancements, including widespread space travel, they can't replicate a 90's technology of putting nanomachines in the bloodsteam? K, that's fine if it works for you but there's no in-story explanation that makes it work for me. But I accept it as 'comic book science' and can still enjoy it, like many things in VH1 that don't hold up if you think about them too much.
They likely can't replicate the same kind of nanites, no. They can likely create different kinds of nanites that do different things, but not the exact same technology.

The Psi-Lords had their own type of nanites, the molmachs.

The nanites in the Blood of Heroes were the proprietary hardware of the Iwatsu Corporation, and, just like molmachs, it is doubtful they can be replicated by just anyone that doesn't understand the technology.
It was drawn to be the same Bloodshot character from the beginning of the comic. But yeah it's just a drawing in a comic book, so it really could be anything we want it to be. That's like saying the Aric Dacia that died might just be a different guy also named Aric who also happens to have an X-O armor. At that point why even go by the comic at all?
No, it's not the same because he is identified as Aric.

Just because he is identified as Bloodshot it doesn't necessarily mean he is Angelo Mortalli.

That's how retcons work.
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Re: VH 1: The End

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ManofTheAtom wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2024 10:59:20 am They likely can't replicate the same kind of nanites, no. They can likely create different kinds of nanites that do different things, but not the exact same technology.

The Psi-Lords had their own type of nanites, the molmachs.

The nanites in the Blood of Heroes were the proprietary hardware of the Iwatsu Corporation, and, just like molmachs, it is doubtful they can be replicated by just anyone that doesn't understand the technology.
But why? There's no reason for that given in the books. As sci-fi, it's dumb.
No, it's not the same because he is identified as Aric.

Just because he is identified as Bloodshot it doesn't necessarily mean he is Angelo Mortalli.

That's how retcons work.
Sure, the Bloodshot that's introduced in the first 8 pages of Rai 0 isn't the same Bloodshot that dies on page 11, even though he looks exactly the same. :roll: He wasn't given the name Angelo Mortalli until after Rai 0, so it could've been anyone. :roll:

I'm not even someone who thinks Rai 0 needs to be followed, but it's clear your strict rules about following it are only for other people to follow. "Rules for thee, not for me" :lol:

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Re: VH 1: The End

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Ryan wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2024 2:16:08 pm
But why? There's no reason for that given in the books. As sci-fi, it's dumb.
Replicating technology is not that simple. To create it from scratch they'd need the research, and to reverse-engineer it they'd need the Blood of Heroes itself to study it. They had neither.
Sure, the Bloodshot that's introduced in the first 8 pages of Rai 0 isn't the same Bloodshot that dies on page 11, even though he looks exactly the same. :roll: He wasn't given the name Angelo Mortalli until after Rai 0, so it could've been anyone. :roll:

I'm not even someone who thinks Rai 0 needs to be followed, but it's clear your strict rules about following it are only for other people to follow. "Rules for thee, not for me" :lol:

Not at all, lol.

I'm merely including Bloodshot #51 into the events of Rai #0, which when was conceived didn't anticipate what happened in #51.

The goal is to address everything that happened into canon, not pretend it didn't. That includes X-O Manowar #68.
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Re: VH 1: The End

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ManofTheAtom wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2024 3:13:25 pm The goal is to address everything that happened into canon, not pretend it didn't. That includes X-O Manowar #68.
Sounds difficult...

/Magnus

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Re: VH 1: The End

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magnusr wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2024 3:19:44 pm
ManofTheAtom wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2024 3:13:25 pm The goal is to address everything that happened into canon, not pretend it didn't. That includes X-O Manowar #68.
Sounds difficult...

/Magnus
Therein lies the fun.

How am I doing so far?
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Re: VH 1: The End

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ManofTheAtom wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2024 3:24:29 pm How am I doing so far?
That's why I reacted. Of course I think about the general continuity when I read them, but not every single odd story that specifically needs explaining. Like XO 68. So I can just answer in that general sense that you are doing well.

/Magnus

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Re: VH 1: The End

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magnusr wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 12:53:53 am
ManofTheAtom wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2024 3:24:29 pm How am I doing so far?
That's why I reacted. Of course I think about the general continuity when I read them, but not every single odd story that specifically needs explaining. Like XO 68. So I can just answer in that general sense that you are doing well.

/Magnus
I do think those last three issues have to be explained because they did a lot of damage. Not only the last issue but also Aric killing Darque.
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Re: VH 1: The End

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ManofTheAtom wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2024 3:13:25 pm Not at all, lol.

I'm merely including Bloodshot #51 into the events of Rai #0, which when was conceived didn't anticipate what happened in #51.

The goal is to address everything that happened into canon, not pretend it didn't. That includes X-O Manowar #68.
Cool, I'm glad you're finally seeing that Rai 0 can be retconned. When faced with two contradictory stories, one will have to retconned. Have fun with post-BQ, looking forward to see how you address the X-O bike :D

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Re: VH 1: The End

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Ryan wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 9:21:01 am
ManofTheAtom wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2024 3:13:25 pm Not at all, lol.

I'm merely including Bloodshot #51 into the events of Rai #0, which when was conceived didn't anticipate what happened in #51.

The goal is to address everything that happened into canon, not pretend it didn't. That includes X-O Manowar #68.
Cool, I'm glad you're finally seeing that Rai 0 can be retconned. When faced with two contradictory stories, one will have to retconned. Have fun with post-BQ, looking forward to see how you address the X-O bike :D
Not really germane to Rai #0, though, lol.

What needs to be addressed is just those final three issues of X-O, and that is considerably easy to do.
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Re: VH 1: The End

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Ryan wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 9:21:01 am
ManofTheAtom wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2024 3:13:25 pm Not at all, lol.

I'm merely including Bloodshot #51 into the events of Rai #0, which when was conceived didn't anticipate what happened in #51.

The goal is to address everything that happened into canon, not pretend it didn't. That includes X-O Manowar #68.
Cool, I'm glad you're finally seeing that Rai 0 can be retconned. When faced with two contradictory stories, one will have to retconned. Have fun with post-BQ, looking forward to see how you address the X-O bike :D
Why is it that my suggestion that the Bloodshot that dies in Rai #0 is a new bearer of the Blood of Heroes and not Angelo Mortalli in order to not retcon Bloodshot #51 drew a heated response, but my suggestion that the Solar from Rai #0 and Magnus/Rai that died fighting the Spider-Aliens is a duplicate of the real Solar who merged with the Sun of Earth 2 in order to not retcon Solar #60 didn't?
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Re: VH 1: The End

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ManofTheAtom wrote: Fri Jun 14, 2024 4:50:21 pm Why is it that my suggestion that the Bloodshot that dies in Rai #0 is a new bearer of the Blood of Heroes and not Angelo Mortalli in order to not retcon Bloodshot #51 drew a heated response, but my suggestion that the Solar from Rai #0 and Magnus/Rai that died fighting the Spider-Aliens is a duplicate of the real Solar who merged with the Sun of Earth 2 in order to not retcon Solar #60 didn't?
No heat man, just found it ironic since you've always (for decades?) railed against anyone who suggests that VH1 could be continued in a way that doesn't exactly follow your strict interpretation of Rai 0.

I like the idea of the Blood passing to more people that we don't know about, but I don't buy that there's a logical way to read Rai 0 and come to the conclusion that the Bloodshot on page 11 is a different character from the Bloodshot on pages 1-8.
Screenshot 2024-06-14 235243.png
Screenshot 2024-06-14 235314.png
There's plenty of creative ways to get around some of the Rai 0 limitations, but that one doesn't work for me.

As for Solar, since he's already split himself multiple times in canon, it wouldn't be nearly as much of a retcon.

VH1 is a dead universe anyway, so anyone can have whatever wild ideas they want. Enjoying reading these, keep it up!
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Re: VH 1: The End

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Ryan wrote: Sat Jun 15, 2024 12:08:15 am
ManofTheAtom wrote: Fri Jun 14, 2024 4:50:21 pm Why is it that my suggestion that the Bloodshot that dies in Rai #0 is a new bearer of the Blood of Heroes and not Angelo Mortalli in order to not retcon Bloodshot #51 drew a heated response, but my suggestion that the Solar from Rai #0 and Magnus/Rai that died fighting the Spider-Aliens is a duplicate of the real Solar who merged with the Sun of Earth 2 in order to not retcon Solar #60 didn't?
No heat man, just found it ironic since you've always (for decades?) railed against anyone who suggests that VH1 could be continued in a way that doesn't exactly follow your strict interpretation of Rai 0.

I like the idea of the Blood passing to more people that we don't know about, but I don't buy that there's a logical way to read Rai 0 and come to the conclusion that the Bloodshot on page 11 is a different character from the Bloodshot on pages 1-8.

Screenshot 2024-06-14 235243.png

Screenshot 2024-06-14 235314.png

There's plenty of creative ways to get around some of the Rai 0 limitations, but that one doesn't work for me.

As for Solar, since he's already split himself multiple times in canon, it wouldn't be nearly as much of a retcon.

VH1 is a dead universe anyway, so anyone can have whatever wild ideas they want. Enjoying reading these, keep it up!
There is nothing in those pages that prevents the Bloodshot that dies in 2028 from being anyone other than Angelo Mortalli.

The alternative is to come up with a convoluted explanation for why and how he survived the explosion in Bloodshot #51, which isn't really that necessary.

It be better to have someone recover his remains and then transfer the nanites into someone else, thus creating the myth of the Blood of Heroes.

Bloodshot #51 was a lemon, let's use it to make lemonade...
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Re: VH 1: The End

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ManofTheAtom wrote: Sat Jun 15, 2024 6:06:56 am There is nothing in those pages that prevents the Bloodshot that dies in 2028 from being anyone other than Angelo Mortalli.

The alternative is to come up with a convoluted explanation for why and how he survived the explosion in Bloodshot #51, which isn't really that necessary.

It be better to have someone recover his remains and then transfer the nanites into someone else, thus creating the myth of the Blood of Heroes.

Bloodshot #51 was a lemon, let's use it to make lemonade...
It's your fan fiction, do whatever you want.

So the Bloodshot who dies on page 11 is the twin brother of the Bloodshot on pages 1-8? Giovani Mortalli?

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Re: VH 1: The End

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Ryan wrote: Sat Jun 15, 2024 1:19:55 pm
ManofTheAtom wrote: Sat Jun 15, 2024 6:06:56 am There is nothing in those pages that prevents the Bloodshot that dies in 2028 from being anyone other than Angelo Mortalli.

The alternative is to come up with a convoluted explanation for why and how he survived the explosion in Bloodshot #51, which isn't really that necessary.

It be better to have someone recover his remains and then transfer the nanites into someone else, thus creating the myth of the Blood of Heroes.

Bloodshot #51 was a lemon, let's use it to make lemonade...
It's your fan fiction, do whatever you want.

So the Bloodshot who dies on page 11 is the twin brother of the Bloodshot on pages 1-8? Giovani Mortalli?
Lol. No.

It could be anyone from any country that gets their hands on Bloodshot's nanite-infused blood after they recover his remains.

The British government did it with the first Para-Man.

Hell, at this point the Bloodshot that dies in 2028 could be Jillian Alcott after the nanites in her blood rewrite her DNA to change her gender. That would close that plot hole of having ANOTHER nanite-infused hero running around.
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Re: VH 1: The End

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ManofTheAtom wrote: Sat Jun 15, 2024 4:48:05 pm Lol. No.

It could be anyone from any country that gets their hands on Bloodshot's nanite-infused blood after they recover his remains.

The British government did it with the first Para-Man.

Hell, at this point the Bloodshot that dies in 2028 could be Jillian Alcott after the nanites in her blood rewrite her DNA to change her gender. That would close that plot hole of having ANOTHER nanite-infused hero running around.
No, the Bloodshot that died in Rai 0 was definitely Faith Herbert. Her fate was never revealed in Rai 0 so this closes yet another plot hole. Rai 0 never states that Faith is NOT Bloodshot, so that definitively proves my point. Just wait until everyone realizes the silhouette on the cover of Rai 0 is actually nanite-juiced Faith Herbert 8-)

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Re: VH 1: The End

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Ryan wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2024 8:07:10 am
ManofTheAtom wrote: Sat Jun 15, 2024 4:48:05 pm Lol. No.

It could be anyone from any country that gets their hands on Bloodshot's nanite-infused blood after they recover his remains.

The British government did it with the first Para-Man.

Hell, at this point the Bloodshot that dies in 2028 could be Jillian Alcott after the nanites in her blood rewrite her DNA to change her gender. That would close that plot hole of having ANOTHER nanite-infused hero running around.
No, the Bloodshot that died in Rai 0 was definitely Faith Herbert. Her fate was never revealed in Rai 0 so this closes yet another plot hole. Rai 0 never states that Faith is NOT Bloodshot, so that definitively proves my point. Just wait until everyone realizes the silhouette on the cover of Rai 0 is actually nanite-juiced Faith Herbert 8-)
Faith becomes the leader of the resistance as shown in Rai #0.
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Re: VH 1: The End

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ManofTheAtom wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2024 11:44:55 am
Ryan wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2024 8:07:10 am
ManofTheAtom wrote: Sat Jun 15, 2024 4:48:05 pm Lol. No.

It could be anyone from any country that gets their hands on Bloodshot's nanite-infused blood after they recover his remains.

The British government did it with the first Para-Man.

Hell, at this point the Bloodshot that dies in 2028 could be Jillian Alcott after the nanites in her blood rewrite her DNA to change her gender. That would close that plot hole of having ANOTHER nanite-infused hero running around.
No, the Bloodshot that died in Rai 0 was definitely Faith Herbert. Her fate was never revealed in Rai 0 so this closes yet another plot hole. Rai 0 never states that Faith is NOT Bloodshot, so that definitively proves my point. Just wait until everyone realizes the silhouette on the cover of Rai 0 is actually nanite-juiced Faith Herbert 8-)
Faith becomes the leader of the resistance as shown in Rai #0.
…and then she gets the blood of heroes after a mixup with an mRNA vaccine booster and becomes a new Bloodshot.

I mean, if we need to get one of the forum members called Blood of Heroes to sign off on it… we can probably get that to happen.

Or maybe do a “blood of her-oes” thing. Get all Gwenpool up in here.

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Re: VH 1: The End

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Chiclo wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2024 1:40:56 pm
ManofTheAtom wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2024 11:44:55 am
Ryan wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2024 8:07:10 am
ManofTheAtom wrote: Sat Jun 15, 2024 4:48:05 pm Lol. No.

It could be anyone from any country that gets their hands on Bloodshot's nanite-infused blood after they recover his remains.

The British government did it with the first Para-Man.

Hell, at this point the Bloodshot that dies in 2028 could be Jillian Alcott after the nanites in her blood rewrite her DNA to change her gender. That would close that plot hole of having ANOTHER nanite-infused hero running around.
No, the Bloodshot that died in Rai 0 was definitely Faith Herbert. Her fate was never revealed in Rai 0 so this closes yet another plot hole. Rai 0 never states that Faith is NOT Bloodshot, so that definitively proves my point. Just wait until everyone realizes the silhouette on the cover of Rai 0 is actually nanite-juiced Faith Herbert 8-)
Faith becomes the leader of the resistance as shown in Rai #0.
…and then she gets the blood of heroes after a mixup with an mRNA vaccine booster and becomes a new Bloodshot.

I mean, if we need to get one of the forum members called Blood of Heroes to sign off on it… we can probably get that to happen.

Or maybe do a “blood of her-oes” thing. Get all Gwenpool up in here.
Well, no, since Ax took the Blood in 2028. Any bearers would need to exist between that and Angelo's death in Bloodshot #51.

Ultimately, three things need to happen:

One, address Angelo's "death" in 51.

Two, address Death Angel.

Three, address the myth of the Blood of Heroes.

I say, the first is addressed by accepting that Angelo did die. The second is addressed by proposing that the Bloodshot that dies in 2028 could be either Jillian Alcott or some other bearer of Angelo's blood. And the the third is addressed by the same as the previous sentence, except that rather than Jillian it could be some other bearer.
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Re: VH 1: The End

Post by Chiclo »

ManofTheAtom wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2024 3:18:38 pm
Chiclo wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2024 1:40:56 pm
ManofTheAtom wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2024 11:44:55 am
Ryan wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2024 8:07:10 am
ManofTheAtom wrote: Sat Jun 15, 2024 4:48:05 pm Lol. No.

It could be anyone from any country that gets their hands on Bloodshot's nanite-infused blood after they recover his remains.

The British government did it with the first Para-Man.

Hell, at this point the Bloodshot that dies in 2028 could be Jillian Alcott after the nanites in her blood rewrite her DNA to change her gender. That would close that plot hole of having ANOTHER nanite-infused hero running around.
No, the Bloodshot that died in Rai 0 was definitely Faith Herbert. Her fate was never revealed in Rai 0 so this closes yet another plot hole. Rai 0 never states that Faith is NOT Bloodshot, so that definitively proves my point. Just wait until everyone realizes the silhouette on the cover of Rai 0 is actually nanite-juiced Faith Herbert 8-)
Faith becomes the leader of the resistance as shown in Rai #0.
…and then she gets the blood of heroes after a mixup with an mRNA vaccine booster and becomes a new Bloodshot.

I mean, if we need to get one of the forum members called Blood of Heroes to sign off on it… we can probably get that to happen.

Or maybe do a “blood of her-oes” thing. Get all Gwenpool up in here.
Well, no, since Ax took the Blood in 2028. Any bearers would need to exist between that and Angelo's death in Bloodshot #51.

Ultimately, three things need to happen:

One, address Angelo's "death" in 51.

Two, address Death Angel.

Three, address the myth of the Blood of Heroes.

I say, the first is addressed by accepting that Angelo did die. The second is addressed by proposing that the Bloodshot that dies in 2028 could be either Jillian Alcott or some other bearer of Angelo's blood. And the the third is addressed by the same as the previous sentence, except that rather than Jillian it could be some other bearer.
Other VALIANT comics that contradicted Rai 0 would strike it from the continuity in the same way you said that statements from other VALIANT comics made the X-O/Iron Man crossover ineligible as VALIANT continuity.

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Re: VH 1: The End

Post by ManofTheAtom »

Chiclo wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2024 3:57:43 pm Other VALIANT comics that contradicted Rai 0 would strike it from the continuity in the same way you said that statements from other VALIANT comics made the X-O/Iron Man crossover ineligible as VALIANT continuity.
Within the context of the VALIANT Universe, the crossover with Iron Man was between a real person (Aric) and a fictional character (Iron Man).

That is not the same as Aric killing Darque in his armor.

The former can and should be swept away, while the latter must be addressed.
:atomic: Comics are like a Rorschach test, everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be... :atomic:

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Re: VH 1: The End

Post by ManofTheAtom »

Within the context of the VALIANT Universe, Aric meeting Iron Man is no different from Iron Man meeting Jennifer Tilly in the Ultimate comics within the context of our reality. In both, a real person (Aric in the VALIANT Universe, Iron Man in the Ultimate Marvel Universe) meets a fictional character (Iron Man in the VALIANT Universe, Tilly in the Ultimate Marvel Universe).
:atomic: Comics are like a Rorschach test, everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be... :atomic:


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