VH-2 invalidated

[Ryan]

VH-2 is the continuation of VH-1. X-O Manowar, a Valiant character, initiates the change within the comics. No monomaniacal demands for overlooking comics needed.

Maybe the Anywhen Fold brought the cube to where Aric could find it? It was sufficient to get the goat on the Silver Surfer’s board.

I'm pretty sure a wish machine had to be involved...

Wouldn't invalidating VH-2 also invalidate VEI/DMG/Alien?

VEI didn't seem to think VH2 was worthless, they took almost half of their main characters wholly or partially from the VH2 concepts - Bloodshot, Shadowman, Q&W, Eternal Warrior.

This seems like an odd take from the self-proclaimed #1 fan of (only fan perhaps?) of Troublemakers and the board's top Resurgence/Alien fan.

I've always been a pre-Unity purist, but I think it's time to try and embrace everything and try to make it all work together in a credible way.

[syzhang28]

Predators are real. Despite the movies which exist in the Valiant universe. Case closed.

[ManofTheAtom]

VH-2 is the continuation of VH-1. X-O Manowar, a Valiant character, initiates the change within the comics. No monomaniacal demands for overlooking comics needed.

Maybe the Anywhen Fold brought the cube to where Aric could find it? It was sufficient to get the goat on the Silver Surfer’s board.

I'm pretty sure a wish machine had to be involved...

Wouldn't invalidating VH-2 also invalidate VEI/DMG/Alien?

VEI didn't seem to think VH2 was worthless, they took almost half of their main characters wholly or partially from the VH2 concepts - Bloodshot, Shadowman, Q&W, Eternal Warrior.

This seems like an odd take from the self-proclaimed #1 fan of (only fan perhaps?) of Troublemakers and the board's top Resurgence/Alien fan.

I've always been a pre-Unity purist, but I think it's time to try and embrace everything and try to make it all work together in a credible way.

VEI is something else that requires its own explanation than the one there is for VH-2.

Another thing to add to the list, when Erica Pierce tells Phil to drop the Clark Kent act, that's another reference to DC being fictional in the VALIANT Universe. It does not mean that Clark Kent is real and that they both know he's really Superman.

[ManofTheAtom]

Predators are real. Despite the movies which exist in the Valiant universe. Case closed.

Which movies? When was anyone in a VALIANT comic shown watching a Predator movie?

[ManofTheAtom]

Another one.

In Alpha & Omega Phil tells Gayle that he used to read Thor comics.

[syzhang28]

Predators are real. Despite the movies which exist in the Valiant universe. Case closed.

Which movies? When was anyone in a VALIANT comic shown watching a Predator movie?

ah ha, are you saying Valiant doesn't have predator movies? Valiant is not like the real world? Its not the world outside our window? That Kevin Peter Hall from one of Faith's fave tv shows, star trek, never had that break out role that would have landed him Star Trek? Sounds like you don't really understand valiant. Sounds like you need to do some research and learn that valiant is just like our world. the world outside our window. but with an added sense of phil seleski fantasy like aliens, time traveling goats and iron man.

[syzhang28]

like i said before. Predators are real in valiant. Case closed.

[ManofTheAtom]

like i said before. Predators are real in valiant. Case closed.

Prove it.

All you have to do is show any VALIANT character watching a Predator movie or reading a Predator comic.

It shouldn't be that difficult for you to do.

[ManofTheAtom]

If one asked historians in the VALIANT Universe if King Arthur was a real historical figure they likely would make the same argument historians make in the real world about him being a composite of different figures or that he outright did not exist.

The truth, however, is that within the fictional narrative of the VALIANT Universe King Arthur WAS real, he was one of the many identities used by Gilad Anni-Padda.

Likewise, if one asked scholars in the VALIANT Universe if the Three Musketeers were real or a work of fiction they'd tell you they were fictional characters created by Alexandre Dumas. The truth, again, would be that they were real since they were identities used by Gilad, Ivar, and Aram.

(Those are better examples than "Romans", btw...).

When it comes to DC and Marvel characters or Predators, it becomes a question of what came first, their meeting a VALIANT character or a VALIANT character making a reference to either that makes it clear they are fictional within the VALIANT Universe?

In the case of the Predator, no such reference exists, therefore he cannot be considered to be fictional within the VALIANT Universe.

In the case of the DC and Marvel Universes, multiple references to their being fictional were made across at least three VALIANT comics (Magnus, Solar, and Harbinger).

Could Predators be both fictional AND real in the VALIANT Universe? Maybe? Is it likely? Not really. Could it be done? Sure, if provided with an extensive backstory that shows how they went from being real to becoming fictional.

Could DC and Marvel characters be both fictional AND real in the VALIANT Universe? That seems considerably far less likely.

[Ryan]

I'm pretty sure a wish machine had to be involved...

Wouldn't invalidating VH-2 also invalidate VEI/DMG/Alien?

VEI didn't seem to think VH2 was worthless, they took almost half of their main characters wholly or partially from the VH2 concepts - Bloodshot, Shadowman, Q&W, Eternal Warrior.

This seems like an odd take from the self-proclaimed #1 fan of (only fan perhaps?) of Troublemakers and the board's top Resurgence/Alien fan.

I've always been a pre-Unity purist, but I think it's time to try and embrace everything and try to make it all work together in a credible way.

VEI is something else that requires its own explanation than the one there is for VH-2.

Another thing to add to the list, when Erica Pierce tells Phil to drop the Clark Kent act, that's another reference to DC being fictional in the VALIANT Universe. It does not mean that Clark Kent is real and that they both know he's really Superman.

No, according to your "hard science" alternate universes aren't valid in Valiant, even though Vh1 Valiant itself is an alternate universe of real world Earth. So your theory actually negates the existence of Valiant, since alternate universes can't exist in the real world, there's just not enough energy to support them.

Why are you working so hard to invalidate your beloved Troublemakers and Resurgence? I'm trying to understand.

[ManofTheAtom]

I'm pretty sure a wish machine had to be involved...

Wouldn't invalidating VH-2 also invalidate VEI/DMG/Alien?

VEI didn't seem to think VH2 was worthless, they took almost half of their main characters wholly or partially from the VH2 concepts - Bloodshot, Shadowman, Q&W, Eternal Warrior.

This seems like an odd take from the self-proclaimed #1 fan of (only fan perhaps?) of Troublemakers and the board's top Resurgence/Alien fan.

I've always been a pre-Unity purist, but I think it's time to try and embrace everything and try to make it all work together in a credible way.

VEI is something else that requires its own explanation than the one there is for VH-2.

Another thing to add to the list, when Erica Pierce tells Phil to drop the Clark Kent act, that's another reference to DC being fictional in the VALIANT Universe. It does not mean that Clark Kent is real and that they both know he's really Superman.

No, according to your "hard science" alternate universes aren't valid in Valiant, even though Vh1 Valiant itself is an alternate universe of real world Earth. So your theory actually negates the existence of Valiant, since alternate universes can't exist in the real world, there's just not enough energy to support them.

Why are you working so hard to invalidate your beloved Troublemakers and Resurgence? I'm trying to understand.

Actually, the idea was that the Earth from Alpha & Omega was the real Earth, with the only fictional elements being Phil, Gayle, Erica, and the accident that turned him into Solar and her into MotherGod.

When Phil went back in time, he turned the one universe into the VALIANT Universe. His changes went both backwards and forwards in time.

[Ryan]

I'm pretty sure a wish machine had to be involved...

Wouldn't invalidating VH-2 also invalidate VEI/DMG/Alien?

VEI didn't seem to think VH2 was worthless, they took almost half of their main characters wholly or partially from the VH2 concepts - Bloodshot, Shadowman, Q&W, Eternal Warrior.

This seems like an odd take from the self-proclaimed #1 fan of (only fan perhaps?) of Troublemakers and the board's top Resurgence/Alien fan.

I've always been a pre-Unity purist, but I think it's time to try and embrace everything and try to make it all work together in a credible way.

VEI is something else that requires its own explanation than the one there is for VH-2.

Another thing to add to the list, when Erica Pierce tells Phil to drop the Clark Kent act, that's another reference to DC being fictional in the VALIANT Universe. It does not mean that Clark Kent is real and that they both know he's really Superman.

No, according to your "hard science" alternate universes aren't valid in Valiant, even though Vh1 Valiant itself is an alternate universe of real world Earth. So your theory actually negates the existence of Valiant, since alternate universes can't exist in the real world, there's just not enough energy to support them.

Why are you working so hard to invalidate your beloved Troublemakers and Resurgence? I'm trying to understand.

Actually, the idea was that the Earth from Alpha & Omega was the real Earth, with the only fictional elements being Phil, Gayle, Erica, and the accident that turned him into Solar and her into MotherGod.

When Phil went back in time, he turned the one universe into the VALIANT Universe. His changes went both backwards and forwards in time.

Yeah but that didn't happen on real Earth, making it an alternate Earth. Solar time traveled and created an alternate Earth, a multiverse. Unless you're saying that we're living in the Valiant universe?

[ManofTheAtom]

Yeah but that didn't happen on real Earth, making it an alternate Earth. Solar time traveled and created an alternate Earth, a multiverse. Unless you're saying that we're living in the Valiant universe?

What I said was that Alpha & Omega took place on the real Earth with the only fictional elements being the people that worked at the Edgewater reactor and the accident that turned Phil and Erica into energy beings.

That should be self-explanatory. It means that there are NO other fictional elements present on that world.

It isn't until Phil goes back in time that he changes the composition of the universe, resulting in the creation of immortals, Harbingers, Spider-Aliens, etc.

That is, partly, what crawls up Erica's *SQUEE* and what she wants to undo in Unity with her own wish machine.

It has nothing to do with a multiverse.

[Ryan]

If one asked historians in the VALIANT Universe if King Arthur was a real historical figure they likely would make the same argument historians make in the real world about him being a composite of different figures or that he outright did not exist.

The truth, however, is that within the fictional narrative of the VALIANT Universe King Arthur WAS real, he was one of the many identities used by Gilad Anni-Padda.

Likewise, if one asked scholars in the VALIANT Universe if the Three Musketeers were real or a work of fiction they'd tell you they were fictional characters created by Alexandre Dumas. The truth, again, would be that they were real since they were identities used by Gilad, Ivar, and Aram.

(Those are better examples than "Romans", btw...).

When it comes to DC and Marvel characters or Predators, it becomes a question of what came first, their meeting a VALIANT character or a VALIANT character making a reference to either that makes it clear they are fictional within the VALIANT Universe?

In the case of the Predator, no such reference exists, therefore he cannot be considered to be fictional within the VALIANT Universe.

In the case of the DC and Marvel Universes, multiple references to their being fictional were made across at least three VALIANT comics (Magnus, Solar, and Harbinger).

Could Predators be both fictional AND real in the VALIANT Universe? Maybe? Is it likely? Not really. Could it be done? Sure, if provided with an extensive backstory that shows how they went from being real to becoming fictional.

Could DC and Marvel characters be both fictional AND real in the VALIANT Universe? That seems considerably far less likely.

The biggest paradox (logic gap) of this whole theory is that Gold Key Doctor Solar comics are established as existing in Vh1 as comic books, the inspiration for Phil Seleski.

And yet the other main comics published by Gold Key alongside Dr. Solar, Magnus and Turok, are established as having really happened in Vh1. How is that even remotely possible or logical?

So it's not really "hard science" or the real world, just a fictional alternate comic book sci-fi universe with plenty of flaws and logic gaps. Just like VH2, VEI, DC, Marvel, etc. etc. etc.

[Chiclo]

I'm pretty sure a wish machine had to be involved...

Wouldn't invalidating VH-2 also invalidate VEI/DMG/Alien?

VEI didn't seem to think VH2 was worthless, they took almost half of their main characters wholly or partially from the VH2 concepts - Bloodshot, Shadowman, Q&W, Eternal Warrior.

This seems like an odd take from the self-proclaimed #1 fan of (only fan perhaps?) of Troublemakers and the board's top Resurgence/Alien fan.

I've always been a pre-Unity purist, but I think it's time to try and embrace everything and try to make it all work together in a credible way.

VEI is something else that requires its own explanation than the one there is for VH-2.

Another thing to add to the list, when Erica Pierce tells Phil to drop the Clark Kent act, that's another reference to DC being fictional in the VALIANT Universe. It does not mean that Clark Kent is real and that they both know he's really Superman.

No, according to your "hard science" alternate universes aren't valid in Valiant, even though Vh1 Valiant itself is an alternate universe of real world Earth. So your theory actually negates the existence of Valiant, since alternate universes can't exist in the real world, there's just not enough energy to support them.

Why are you working so hard to invalidate your beloved Troublemakers and Resurgence? I'm trying to understand.

Silly Ryan. MotA's hard science doesn't invalidate the Valiant universe as an alternate universe. It invalidates our universe. There is only one valid universe, not this one, but it is VH1 Valiant. Right up until Aric climbs into that dream machine and never got out and could never have met Iron Man for real.

[Ryan]

Yeah but that didn't happen on real Earth, making it an alternate Earth. Solar time traveled and created an alternate Earth, a multiverse. Unless you're saying that we're living in the Valiant universe?

What I said was that Alpha & Omega took place on the real Earth with the only fictional elements being the people that worked at the Edgewater reactor and the accident that turned Phil and Erica into energy beings.

That should be self-explanatory. It means that there are NO other fictional elements present on that world.

It isn't until Phil goes back in time that he changes the composition of the universe, resulting in the creation of immortals, Harbingers, Spider-Aliens, etc.

That is, partly, what crawls up Erica's *SQUEE* and what she wants to undo in Unity with her own wish machine.

It has nothing to do with a multiverse.

Valiant is an alternate comic book sci-fi universe, not the real Earth. Wish machines are not hard science.

[ManofTheAtom]

Yeah but that didn't happen on real Earth, making it an alternate Earth. Solar time traveled and created an alternate Earth, a multiverse. Unless you're saying that we're living in the Valiant universe?

What I said was that Alpha & Omega took place on the real Earth with the only fictional elements being the people that worked at the Edgewater reactor and the accident that turned Phil and Erica into energy beings.

That should be self-explanatory. It means that there are NO other fictional elements present on that world.

It isn't until Phil goes back in time that he changes the composition of the universe, resulting in the creation of immortals, Harbingers, Spider-Aliens, etc.

That is, partly, what crawls up Erica's *SQUEE* and what she wants to undo in Unity with her own wish machine.

It has nothing to do with a multiverse.

Valiant is an alternate comic book sci-fi universe, not the real Earth. Wish machines are not hard science.

The wish machine would fit Clarke's third law...

[ManofTheAtom]

Silly Ryan. MotA's hard science doesn't invalidate the Valiant universe as an alternate universe. It invalidates our universe. There is only one valid universe, not this one, but it is VH1 Valiant. Right up until Aric climbs into that dream machine and never got out and could never have met Iron Man for real.

ad hominem
1 of 2
adjective
ad ho·​mi·​nem (ˈ)ad-ˈhä-mə-nəm -ˌnem
1
: appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect
an ad hominem argument
2
: marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made
made an ad hominem personal attack on his rival

[Ryan]

Silly Ryan. MotA's hard science doesn't invalidate the Valiant universe as an alternate universe. It invalidates our universe. There is only one valid universe, not this one, but it is VH1 Valiant. Right up until Aric climbs into that dream machine and never got out and could never have met Iron Man for real.

I'm about to climb into the dream machine with him.

In the future according to Mota, that comic will have to be distributed with every new Valiant comic so that fans will know not to utter the dreaded word 'multiverse', it's much simpler just to recite this 25 page dissertation.

[Chiclo]

Silly Ryan. MotA's hard science doesn't invalidate the Valiant universe as an alternate universe. It invalidates our universe. There is only one valid universe, not this one, but it is VH1 Valiant. Right up until Aric climbs into that dream machine and never got out and could never have met Iron Man for real.

ad hominem
1 of 2
adjective
ad ho·​mi·​nem (ˈ)ad-ˈhä-mə-nəm -ˌnem
1
: appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect
an ad hominem argument
2
: marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made
made an ad hominem personal attack on his rival

In no way was that an attack on your person. It was a misrepresentation of your argument taken ad absurdium but that attack was entirely directed at your argument and brought no personal quality of yours into the argument.

Not an ad hominem.

[Chiclo]

Yeah but that didn't happen on real Earth, making it an alternate Earth. Solar time traveled and created an alternate Earth, a multiverse. Unless you're saying that we're living in the Valiant universe?

What I said was that Alpha & Omega took place on the real Earth with the only fictional elements being the people that worked at the Edgewater reactor and the accident that turned Phil and Erica into energy beings.

That should be self-explanatory. It means that there are NO other fictional elements present on that world.

It isn't until Phil goes back in time that he changes the composition of the universe, resulting in the creation of immortals, Harbingers, Spider-Aliens, etc.

That is, partly, what crawls up Erica's *SQUEE* and what she wants to undo in Unity with her own wish machine.

It has nothing to do with a multiverse.

Valiant is an alternate comic book sci-fi universe, not the real Earth. Wish machines are not hard science.

The wish machine would fit Clarke's third law...

Clarke's Third Law is not a physical law. You are appealing to laws of fiction, not laws of science.

[ManofTheAtom]

Yeah but that didn't happen on real Earth, making it an alternate Earth. Solar time traveled and created an alternate Earth, a multiverse. Unless you're saying that we're living in the Valiant universe?

What I said was that Alpha & Omega took place on the real Earth with the only fictional elements being the people that worked at the Edgewater reactor and the accident that turned Phil and Erica into energy beings.

That should be self-explanatory. It means that there are NO other fictional elements present on that world.

It isn't until Phil goes back in time that he changes the composition of the universe, resulting in the creation of immortals, Harbingers, Spider-Aliens, etc.

That is, partly, what crawls up Erica's *SQUEE* and what she wants to undo in Unity with her own wish machine.

It has nothing to do with a multiverse.

Valiant is an alternate comic book sci-fi universe, not the real Earth. Wish machines are not hard science.

The wish machine would fit Clarke's third law...

Clarke's Third Law is not a physical law. You are appealing to laws of fiction, not laws of science.

Or, how about, science fiction?

[ManofTheAtom]

Clarke's third law states that any sufficiently advanced form of technology is indistinguishable from magic.

What Alpha & Omega did was posit a scenario in which an individual obsessed with comic books accomplishes just that and creates a machine that grants him his wish to become his favorite comic book superhero.

In any medium other than comic books this would be a perfectly acceptable science fiction scenario, but because comic books have to deal with decades of DC and Marvel *SQUEE* getting people to accept that becomes an uphill battle.

[Ryan]

Here's the million dollar question, answer this one and we may just unlock the secrets to the non-multiverse.

Gold Key Doctor Solar is established multiple times as a fictional comic book in the Vh1 universe, while the events of Gold Key Magnus Robot Fighter are established as having actually happened in the Valiant universe. So in Vh1, what exactly is on the bottom of this cover?

Doctor Solar Man of the Atom 29.cbr-DrSolar029-001.jpg

Maybe U2K and the whole 'magic ink' thing isn't looking as ridiculous anymore.

[Chiclo]

Yeah but that didn't happen on real Earth, making it an alternate Earth. Solar time traveled and created an alternate Earth, a multiverse. Unless you're saying that we're living in the Valiant universe?

What I said was that Alpha & Omega took place on the real Earth with the only fictional elements being the people that worked at the Edgewater reactor and the accident that turned Phil and Erica into energy beings.

That should be self-explanatory. It means that there are NO other fictional elements present on that world.

It isn't until Phil goes back in time that he changes the composition of the universe, resulting in the creation of immortals, Harbingers, Spider-Aliens, etc.

That is, partly, what crawls up Erica's *SQUEE* and what she wants to undo in Unity with her own wish machine.

It has nothing to do with a multiverse.

Valiant is an alternate comic book sci-fi universe, not the real Earth. Wish machines are not hard science.

The wish machine would fit Clarke's third law...

Clarke's Third Law is not a physical law. You are appealing to laws of fiction, not laws of science.

Or, how about, science fiction?

As a genre within fiction, yes. Clarke's Third Law is not a scientific law and never will be. You could argue that it is a catechism in the religion of humanism more easily than a scientific law.

You are pretty well informed on science fiction. What is so frustrating is that you cite these science fiction rules as scientific facts when they don't correspond to how cosmology and physics really work. Like the first law of thermodynamics ruling out branching universes - it works well for sciency sounding word salad in some kind of hard sci fi story but that is a gross misapplication of thermodynamics in the real world.

Continuing to argue about this with you, I run afoul of Einstein's definition of insanity. After some point, you just have to get unserious and ridiculous with the replies. Pretty much everyone who has engaged with you in the last couple of threads have been doing that.