Discussion of Harbinger 1 CGC 9.8 (and 9.8s in general)...

dino · Post by **dino** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 1:13:34 am

I bet that Harby 1 CGC 9.8 would have gone for $400 by itself. Nice win greg, is this your first 9.8 Harby 1?

x-omatic · Post by **x-omatic** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 1:58:47 am

I didn't think we would ever see a Harbinger 1 9.8 for sale. It would have been interesting to see what it would go for on its own.

greg · Post by **greg** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 8:37:20 am

dino wrote:I bet that Harby 1 CGC 9.8 would have gone for $400 by itself. Nice win greg, is this your first 9.8 Harby 1?

Absolutely...

It's also my first 9.8 for Solar 1 and for Magnus 1.
Somehow, I only have lower grades on all three books.

We haven't seen a CGC 9.8 Harbinger 1 on Ebay since September 2002,
which sold for about $210... and I wasn't the winner on that one.

I probably would have hit the BIN on just the three 9.8s in that lot,
so the 9.6 Magnus 0 and others are a nice bonus.

Now, I just have to get them to safely to my house... with insurance!

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 1:41:33 pm

ckb wrote:*******Holy freaking crap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!****

I guess I should be happy there was a BIN he probably saved me a grand.

What a loser for putting those up for sale that way! Oh lets lump the $1500 book in with two others and set the bin real low. Clueless.

Greg, If you want to make a quick $100 you can flip it to me.

Eric Jackson wrote:http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... RK:MEWA:IT

nice one greg, i sat with my finger on the trigger for a while.. then passed on it. 6 great books.

Yeah....bummer, CKB...that's why I get rid of stupid BINs as fast as possible. You and I both know that Harb #1...1 of THREE at 9.8....is a $1000 book minimum.

Wow.

soundoftheuniverse · Mon Aug 09, 2004 4:59:20 pm

I'm speechless...

Greg, YOU ARE THE MAN!

Lol, how is it that you are always in the right place at the right time when the very best Valiant auctions to EVER hit Ebay are posted. But in all seriousness you deserve to have them if anyone should.

Wow, I'm just flabbergasted. That's a way better deal than the $4 XO 1/2 Gold. You just got some serious THUNDA!!

Way to Go!!!

greg · Post by **greg** » Tue Aug 17, 2004 4:34:01 pm

greg wrote:
dino wrote:I bet that Harby 1 CGC 9.8 would have gone for $400 by itself. Nice win greg, is this your first 9.8 Harby 1?
Absolutely...
It's also my first 9.8 for Solar 1 and for Magnus 1.
Somehow, I only have lower grades on all three books.

We haven't seen a CGC 9.8 Harbinger 1 on Ebay since September 2002,
which sold for about $210... and I wasn't the winner on that one.

I probably would have hit the BIN on just the three 9.8s in that lot,
so the 9.6 Magnus 0 and others are a nice bonus.

Now, I just have to get them to safely to my house... with insurance!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 2262204551

The books have arrived. Looks like it's time for an appropriate icon...

In a strange coincidence... X-Omatic also has a brand-new 9.8 Harbinger 1...
and TLC55555 got a 9.8 over the weekend.
(If I didn't already know that there were dozens of copies that both X-Omatic
and TLC55555 left ungraded, I would think that something was up at CGC...
but it looks like everyone's doing a good job of judging what to send to CGC,
and what to keep unslabbed.)

Anyone interested in TLC55555's 9.8 of Harbinger 1 should check here:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 2263433785
Looks like it might be a relatively quiet 6 days, 23hours, 59minutes...
(But that last 60 seconds may be very interesting...)

DawgPhan · Post by **DawgPhan** » Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:33:06 am

greg wrote:
greg wrote:
dino wrote:I bet that Harby 1 CGC 9.8 would have gone for $400 by itself. Nice win greg, is this your first 9.8 Harby 1?
Absolutely...
It's also my first 9.8 for Solar 1 and for Magnus 1.
Somehow, I only have lower grades on all three books.

We haven't seen a CGC 9.8 Harbinger 1 on Ebay since September 2002,
which sold for about $210... and I wasn't the winner on that one.

I probably would have hit the BIN on just the three 9.8s in that lot,
so the 9.6 Magnus 0 and others are a nice bonus.

Now, I just have to get them to safely to my house... with insurance!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 2262204551

The books have arrived. Looks like it's time for an appropriate icon...

In a strange coincidence... X-Omatic also has a brand-new 9.8 Harbinger 1...
and TLC55555 got a 9.8 over the weekend.
(If I didn't already know that there were dozens of copies that both X-Omatic
and TLC55555 left ungraded, I would think that something was up at CGC...
but it looks like everyone's doing a good job of judging what to send to CGC,
and what to keep unslabbed.)

Anyone interested in TLC55555's 9.8 of Harbinger 1 should check here:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 2263433785
Looks like it might be a relatively quiet 6 days, 23hours, 59minutes...
(But that last 60 seconds may be very interesting...)

Since we have gone from 2 copies to 6-8 know copies does that change what people think of this book. I seem to remember people talking about a Harbinger 1 9.8 being a 700-1000 book...does this change that since we have seen several 9.8 copies come out in the last few weeks? Make anyone think that maybe NO valiant is rare in 9.8 since all of the big books are becoming fairly well represented in the census?

TLC55555 · Post by **TLC55555** » Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:53:16 am

DawgPhan wrote:
greg wrote:
greg wrote:
dino wrote:I bet that Harby 1 CGC 9.8 would have gone for $400 by itself. Nice win greg, is this your first 9.8 Harby 1?
Absolutely...
It's also my first 9.8 for Solar 1 and for Magnus 1.
Somehow, I only have lower grades on all three books.

We haven't seen a CGC 9.8 Harbinger 1 on Ebay since September 2002,
which sold for about $210... and I wasn't the winner on that one.

I probably would have hit the BIN on just the three 9.8s in that lot,
so the 9.6 Magnus 0 and others are a nice bonus.

Now, I just have to get them to safely to my house... with insurance!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 2262204551

The books have arrived. Looks like it's time for an appropriate icon...

In a strange coincidence... X-Omatic also has a brand-new 9.8 Harbinger 1...
and TLC55555 got a 9.8 over the weekend.
(If I didn't already know that there were dozens of copies that both X-Omatic
and TLC55555 left ungraded, I would think that something was up at CGC...
but it looks like everyone's doing a good job of judging what to send to CGC,
and what to keep unslabbed.)

Anyone interested in TLC55555's 9.8 of Harbinger 1 should check here:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 2263433785
Looks like it might be a relatively quiet 6 days, 23hours, 59minutes...
(But that last 60 seconds may be very interesting...)

Since we have gone from 2 copies to 6-8 know copies does that change what people think of this book. I seem to remember people talking about a Harbinger 1 9.8 being a 700-1000 book...does this change that since we have seen several 9.8 copies come out in the last few weeks?

Hopefully, not!!

Make anyone think that maybe NO valiant is rare in 9.8 since all of the big books are becoming fairly well represented in the census?

I'd look at Magnus #0 also. The census currently lists a total of 5 in 9.8 between the mail-in and retailers versions. Harbinger #1 and Magnus #0 seem to be the most scarce non-premium 9.8 graded keys.

greg · Post by **greg** » Wed Aug 18, 2004 9:21:32 am

DawgPhan wrote:...maybe NO valiant is rare in 9.8 since all of the big books are becoming fairly well represented in the census?

Hmmm... I still don't think that Harbinger #1's are "easy" in 9.8...
we know of 6 graded as 9.8 out of about 75 in slabs,
not to mention dozens of copies not even sent into CGC
because they weren't as good as 9.6 or 9.4 candidates.
That's easily under 10% as 9.8's, more likely less than 5%...
meaning that there might be 2,000 to 2,500
Harbinger 1's in 9.8 in existence... if we're generous.

I'll be surprised if more than 5% of any print run (on any modern book)
is ever CGC graded, so there probably won't ever be more than 100
copies of Harbinger 1 CGC 9.8 on the census.
Yes, they exist... but odds are that a "really nice ungraded one" isn't 9.8 nice...
it's probably 9.4 or 9.6 nice... odds are stacked high against "raw = 9.8".

Back to the original question... we have a similar situation with Solar #10.
CGC 9.8s on Solar #10 (first print) will always be a very low ratio
compared to the number of books 9.6, 9.4, or lower.

It will be harder to justify 9.8 prices in the future, because it will appear
that 9.8s are "getting easier to find" if people use the pre-screen service.
If you send 50 copies of Solar #10 to CGC using a 9.6 pre-screen requirement,
you will probably get 40 copies sent back to you ungraded,
which means that 80% of the books are 9.4 or lower (hypothetically)...
BUT... the CGC census will only show the 10 books that were slabbed,
so the census for that particular order will be 10 out of 10 as 9.6 or higher.
The reality is that 10 out of 50 are 9.6 or higher... but the census can't show that.

As people continue to use pre-screening for 9.6 or 9.8 grades,
the census will become "top heavy" and percentages won't mean anything.
Our only "clue" will be when a seller has both CGC graded and ungraded
copies of the same book. It's possible those ungraded ones are "rejects".

DawgPhan · Post by **DawgPhan** » Wed Aug 18, 2004 9:39:38 am

Yeah I was just thinking mainly about the seemingly high prices paid for a book when there is only 2 in the census against 2 weeks later when 3-4 more copies have surfaced. When you won the auction for the 6 cgc books seems like people were, hmmm not angry with you, but they DID want to see what one would go for. People were throwing around some crazy numbers for that book.
Now seemingly in 2 weeks we had doubled the number of copies..How does this affect how people value the book. Is it still a $700 book? I agree that the more books get graded the more the numbers become skewed towards the high grade. No one with a thought in their head is going to get a GD copy of Solar 10 graded. I think that this is especially true with valiants since unless they are in super high grade that are not worth the cost of grading.

I guess it all depends on how we define "rare". I think of rare as not everyone that wants one can have one for a reasonable amount. I think that $100 is probably very reasonable for most of the good valiants in 9.8...So right now these books are rare because they are going for a lot of money and I can not reasonably buy one. It also depends on how many people are in the market for something and clearly as the price falls more people are in the market for one...
I am just interested as to where we are going to see things fall in the future...currently I think that things are a little crazy with some of these 9.8 books....I really think that all of the 9.8 books are great and love watching those auctions, but I think that the next 10.0 that hits the market is going to blow those books away...

Just curious if all of the people who were thinking so much about Harbinger 1 in 9.8 are still feeling the same way....Will the hype move onto magnus 0 like you pointed out?

x-omatic · Post by **x-omatic** » Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:22:04 am

All you have to do is look at the ration of the books graded.
Look at the current cencus for harbinger 1
72 books (3@9.8, 14 @9.6, 24 @9.4, 19 @9.2, 3 @9.0, 5 @8.5, and a few other lower grade.)
You can see by the numbers that people are sending in books they think are higher grade and getting on average 9.2 or 9.4 as those 2 grades account for 1/2 the books.

Now look at Harbinger 0 pink.
84 books (27 @9.8, 33 @9.6, 17 @9.4 and a few lower grades)
You can see that most books sent in fall around 9.6 to 9.8. Well over 1/2 the books sent in.

You can compare every Valiant graded and you will find Harbinger 1 to be the hardest to get in 9.6 or better.

The 2 I sent were the best copies I have ever owned and have ever seen. 1 was my original copy from when the book was new.

There may be other books that are easier to get in 9.8. Harbinger 1 is not one of them.

Escaflown4 · Post by **Escaflown4** » Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:27:24 am

DawgPhan wrote:Yeah I was just thinking mainly about the seemingly high prices paid for a book when there is only 2 in the census against 2 weeks later when 3-4 more copies have surfaced. When you won the auction for the 6 cgc books seems like people were, hmmm not angry with you, but they DID want to see what one would go for. People were throwing around some crazy numbers for that book.
Now seemingly in 2 weeks we had doubled the number of copies..How does this affect how people value the book. Is it still a $700 book? I agree that the more books get graded the more the numbers become skewed towards the high grade. No one with a thought in their head is going to get a GD copy of Solar 10 graded. I think that this is especially true with valiants since unless they are in super high grade that are not worth the cost of grading.

I guess it all depends on how we define "rare". I think of rare as not everyone that wants one can have one for a reasonable amount. I think that $100 is probably very reasonable for most of the good valiants in 9.8...So right now these books are rare because they are going for a lot of money and I can not reasonably buy one. It also depends on how many people are in the market for something and clearly as the price falls more people are in the market for one...
I am just interested as to where we are going to see things fall in the future...currently I think that things are a little crazy with some of these 9.8 books....I really think that all of the 9.8 books are great and love watching those auctions, but I think that the next 10.0 that hits the market is going to blow those books away...

Just curious if all of the people who were thinking so much about Harbinger 1 in 9.8 are still feeling the same way....Will the hype move onto magnus 0 like you pointed out?

I definitely agree with what you say. I find no justification on shelling out 10x the $$ to get a book slabbed at 9.8 then just getting a raw near mint copy. As Greg said, there's most likely tons of Harbinger #1 copies that have 9.8 potential grading out there. The way I see it, unless the print run is really really limited, CGC 9.8 will only go down in value as more and more surface as time goes on. I mean there's literally more supply then there will be demand. Only books like Bloodshot Platinum or the Shadowman Vol #3 issue 2 variant will retain its high value due to the very low print run.

x-omatic · Post by **x-omatic** » Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:30:26 am

DawgPhan wrote:Yeah I was just thinking mainly about the seemingly high prices paid for a book when there is only 2 in the census against 2 weeks later when 3-4 more copies have surfaced. When you won the auction for the 6 cgc books seems like people were, hmmm not angry with you, but they DID want to see what one would go for. People were throwing around some crazy numbers for that book.
Now seemingly in 2 weeks we had doubled the number of copies..How does this affect how people value the book. Is it still a $700 book? I agree that the more books get graded the more the numbers become skewed towards the high grade. No one with a thought in their head is going to get a GD copy of Solar 10 graded. I think that this is especially true with valiants since unless they are in super high grade that are not worth the cost of grading.

I guess it all depends on how we define "rare". I think of rare as not everyone that wants one can have one for a reasonable amount. I think that $100 is probably very reasonable for most of the good valiants in 9.8...So right now these books are rare because they are going for a lot of money and I can not reasonably buy one. It also depends on how many people are in the market for something and clearly as the price falls more people are in the market for one...
I am just interested as to where we are going to see things fall in the future...currently I think that things are a little crazy with some of these 9.8 books....I really think that all of the 9.8 books are great and love watching those auctions, but I think that the next 10.0 that hits the market is going to blow those books away...

Just curious if all of the people who were thinking so much about Harbinger 1 in 9.8 are still feeling the same way....Will the hype move onto magnus 0 like you pointed out?

Well, how many Harbinger #1 do you think you have in 9.8? I would be the cost of grading it that you don't have 1. It is too hard to find.

DawgPhan · Post by **DawgPhan** » Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:42:23 am

x-omatic wrote:
DawgPhan wrote:Yeah I was just thinking mainly about the seemingly high prices paid for a book when there is only 2 in the census against 2 weeks later when 3-4 more copies have surfaced. When you won the auction for the 6 cgc books seems like people were, hmmm not angry with you, but they DID want to see what one would go for. People were throwing around some crazy numbers for that book.
Now seemingly in 2 weeks we had doubled the number of copies..How does this affect how people value the book. Is it still a $700 book? I agree that the more books get graded the more the numbers become skewed towards the high grade. No one with a thought in their head is going to get a GD copy of Solar 10 graded. I think that this is especially true with valiants since unless they are in super high grade that are not worth the cost of grading.

I guess it all depends on how we define "rare". I think of rare as not everyone that wants one can have one for a reasonable amount. I think that $100 is probably very reasonable for most of the good valiants in 9.8...So right now these books are rare because they are going for a lot of money and I can not reasonably buy one. It also depends on how many people are in the market for something and clearly as the price falls more people are in the market for one...
I am just interested as to where we are going to see things fall in the future...currently I think that things are a little crazy with some of these 9.8 books....I really think that all of the 9.8 books are great and love watching those auctions, but I think that the next 10.0 that hits the market is going to blow those books away...

Just curious if all of the people who were thinking so much about Harbinger 1 in 9.8 are still feeling the same way....Will the hype move onto magnus 0 like you pointed out?
Well, how many Harbinger #1 do you think you have in 9.8? I would be the cost of grading it that you don't have 1. It is too hard to find.

Well since you asked I dont have any...I really dont care for this book...I didnt really like the comic when I was collecting back in the day and now HATE the idea of paying more for this book than any other book in the run since I dont really care to own it...I do have 2-6 all missing the coupons, but as I said I dont really care for this book...
But why do you think that I dont have one? Because my grading couldnt possibly be as good as yours? I just dont get it...What makes you think that I couldnt possibly have one? Because I havent spent as much money on these books as you have? I dont even know how we got to this...i never said that I thought that any of my books were 9.8s or anything even remotely close....I guess that you could be trying to make a point, but I dont know what it is...9.8 books are rarer than say a 9.0 book...No one doubts that. I am saying that 9.8 are not as rare as everyone wishes they were...
And if I cared about having one I would GAY-RUN-TEE that I could have one with the next 6 months that I had graded myself. All it takes is money...simple...

Escaflown4 · Post by **Escaflown4** » Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:43:39 am

x-omatic wrote:All you have to do is look at the ration of the books graded.
Look at the current cencus for harbinger 1
72 books (3@9.8, 14 @9.6, 24 @9.4, 19 @9.2, 3 @9.0, 5 @8.5, and a few other lower grade.)
You can see by the numbers that people are sending in books they think are higher grade and getting on average 9.2 or 9.4 as those 2 grades account for 1/2 the books.

Now look at Harbinger 0 pink.
84 books (27 @9.8, 33 @9.6, 17 @9.4 and a few lower grades)
You can see that most books sent in fall around 9.6 to 9.8. Well over 1/2 the books sent in.

You can compare every Valiant graded and you will find Harbinger 1 to be the hardest to get in 9.6 or better.

The 2 I sent were the best copies I have ever owned and have ever seen. 1 was my original copy from when the book was new.

There may be other books that are easier to get in 9.8. Harbinger 1 is not one of them.

If you read my post above, you will know why I would say that a Harbinger 0 pink will always be worth more then a Harbinger #1 at 9.8. Simply put, even tho there are currently alot more Pink 9.8's, the print run is only at 3000. Harbinger #1 has a print run of 48,000. That's a huge difference!

Out of those 48,000 copies, I refuse to believe that pink 9.8's can outnumber the Harbinger #1 9.8's. I've been to many LCS and I can vouch for you that 95% of them do not know the true value of these valiant books. Once more and more people find out that people are willing to pay some serious $$ for these, you will see alot more CGC submissions and thus Harbinger #1 9.8's will not be as scarce as it is now.

TLC55555 · Post by **TLC55555** » Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:53:45 am

x-omatic wrote:
DawgPhan wrote:Yeah I was just thinking mainly about the seemingly high prices paid for a book when there is only 2 in the census against 2 weeks later when 3-4 more copies have surfaced. When you won the auction for the 6 cgc books seems like people were, hmmm not angry with you, but they DID want to see what one would go for. People were throwing around some crazy numbers for that book.
Now seemingly in 2 weeks we had doubled the number of copies..How does this affect how people value the book. Is it still a $700 book? I agree that the more books get graded the more the numbers become skewed towards the high grade. No one with a thought in their head is going to get a GD copy of Solar 10 graded. I think that this is especially true with valiants since unless they are in super high grade that are not worth the cost of grading.

I guess it all depends on how we define "rare". I think of rare as not everyone that wants one can have one for a reasonable amount. I think that $100 is probably very reasonable for most of the good valiants in 9.8...So right now these books are rare because they are going for a lot of money and I can not reasonably buy one. It also depends on how many people are in the market for something and clearly as the price falls more people are in the market for one...
I am just interested as to where we are going to see things fall in the future...currently I think that things are a little crazy with some of these 9.8 books....I really think that all of the 9.8 books are great and love watching those auctions, but I think that the next 10.0 that hits the market is going to blow those books away...

Just curious if all of the people who were thinking so much about Harbinger 1 in 9.8 are still feeling the same way....Will the hype move onto magnus 0 like you pointed out?
Well, how many Harbinger #1 do you think you have in 9.8? I would be the cost of grading it that you don't have 1. It is too hard to find.

I have been collecting comics and grading for years now. I took seven copies of Magnus #0 to CGC. Four came back in 9.8 and three came back in 9.6. I took five copies of Harbinger #1 in and one came back in 9.8 and four came back in 9.4. Additionally, I left about 10 copies of Harbinger #1 home, becuase I didn't think they would grade in the 9.4 or above range. That basically equates to 1 copy in 9.8 out of 15 Harby #1 that I own. How many 9.8's will surface? Hard to tell. I'm a good grader, but for some reason CGC seems to be hard on Harby #1. I would be suprised if there every ends up being more than 30 graded in 9.8.

x-omatic · Post by **x-omatic** » Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:56:18 am

DawgPhan wrote:Well since you asked I dont have any...I really dont care for this book...I didnt really like the comic when I was collecting back in the day and now HATE the idea of paying more for this book than any other book in the run since I dont really care to own it...I do have 2-6 all missing the coupons, but as I said I dont really care for this book...
But why do you think that I dont have one? Because my grading couldnt possibly be as good as yours? I just dont get it...What makes you think that I couldnt possibly have one? Because I havent spent as much money on these books as you have? I dont even know how we got to this...i never said that I thought that any of my books were 9.8s or anything even remotely close....I guess that you could be trying to make a point, but I dont know what it is...9.8 books are rarer than say a 9.0 book...No one doubts that. I am saying that 9.8 are not as rare as everyone wishes they were...
And if I cared about having one I would GAY-RUN-TEE that I could have one with the next 6 months that I had graded myself. All it takes is money...simple...

I wasn't implying anything about your grading or the amount of money you have to spend. My point is, I have found that most people that talk down something don't have it. You are making statements about the book not being as hard to get in 9.8, yet don't own a high grade one yourself. Myself, and many other, have felt that Harbinger 1 is the hardest to get in high grade. Whether you care about that or not, the number support this.

As far as 9.8 books being rare? It all depends on the book. Look at the number on Harb 1 & Harb 0. Also not how many 9.0 and lower books of Harb 1 have been graded. There are real condition issues with this book. I am not saying all books are as hard to get in 9.8, but some are way harder than others. Thus they comand a lot more money.

DawgPhan · Post by **DawgPhan** » Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:57:40 am

I dont think that there will be that many but probably for different reasons..You think that they dont exists..I think that they exist and that will not be graded because it is not really worth it to be graded to the person with the books...whetteon might be right in thinking that we are going to start seeing a flood of cgc valiants...they arent cooling off that is for sure, but I think that the current market for slabbed valiants if VERY limited...How many 9.8 Harbingers can the market sustain...30 is probably close...

DawgPhan · Post by **DawgPhan** » Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:59:48 am

greg I think all of these post...starting with mine need to be moved to the graded section and to whetteon's thread if you have time and can do that...we are off topic here and I really like this thread for posting great deals...no need to destroy it when we have a perfectly good place to talk about this...oh and you could delete this post after you move it...thanks a ton...

TLC55555 · Post by **TLC55555** » Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:10:23 am

Escaflown4 wrote:
x-omatic wrote:All you have to do is look at the ration of the books graded.
Look at the current cencus for harbinger 1
72 books (3@9.8, 14 @9.6, 24 @9.4, 19 @9.2, 3 @9.0, 5 @8.5, and a few other lower grade.)
You can see by the numbers that people are sending in books they think are higher grade and getting on average 9.2 or 9.4 as those 2 grades account for 1/2 the books.

Now look at Harbinger 0 pink.
84 books (27 @9.8, 33 @9.6, 17 @9.4 and a few lower grades)
You can see that most books sent in fall around 9.6 to 9.8. Well over 1/2 the books sent in.

You can compare every Valiant graded and you will find Harbinger 1 to be the hardest to get in 9.6 or better.

The 2 I sent were the best copies I have ever owned and have ever seen. 1 was my original copy from when the book was new.

There may be other books that are easier to get in 9.8. Harbinger 1 is not one of them.
If you read my post above, you will know why I would say that a Harbinger 0 pink will always be worth more then a Harbinger #1 at 9.8. Simply put, even tho there are currently alot more Pink 9.8's, the print run is only at 3000. Harbinger #1 has a print run of 48,000. That's a huge difference! Out of those 48,000 copies, I refuse to believe that pink 9.8's can outnumber the Harbinger #1 9.8's. I've been to many LCS and I can vouch for you that 95% of them do not know the true value of these valiant books. Once more and more people find out that people are willing to pay some serious $$ for these, you will see alot more CGC submissions and thus Harbinger #1 9.8's will not be as scarce as it is now.

I disagree. It's not just about print run. I believe that most of the Harbinger #1's were read several times. They were also in the beginning of the Valiant frenzy, so folks didn't use kid gloves when they did read them. By the time Harbinger #1 through #7 were out and the coupons were cut, folks knew that Harbinger #0 should be handled carefully and put into plastic.

Also remember, 3000+ Harbinger #1's don't have coupons. I wouldn't personally purchase a CGC 9.8 Harby #1 without it's coupon. I'm actually suprised that couponless Harbies aren't getting a "qualified" green lable from CGC.

As was pointed out previously, the card stock of the Harby #1's and Harby #0's different also. THe tougher card stock of the Harby #0's has allowed they to remain in better shape. As such, there will be more 9.8's.

x-omatic · Post by **x-omatic** » Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:50:57 am

I agree that print run is not so much a factor with CGC books. The main factor is the number that has been graded, and the results of them. The main reason Harb 1 is hard in high grade is the cover stock. It was lighter and has major issues with tears at the staples and along the spine. Harbinger 0 has a card stock cover and doesn't have these issues. Thus, easier to get in high grade.

greg · Post by **greg** » Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:54:22 am

It will be interesting to see what percentage of "total print runs"
become 'the norm' on the CGC census after 5, 10, or 20 years.
(Particularly for books that have been collected/protected since they were released.)

For example, Incredible Hulk 181 had a print run around 200,000 copies.
It came out in 1974, so it was "collected" as much as any modern comic book would be,
considering the "boom" in comic book collecting took place around 1964,
and again in 1968.

So, we've got a well-known book, Hulk 181, with a print run around 200,000 copies,
many, many copies were collected and are available on the back issue market,
all of them are "slab-able" because the book is in demand in almost any condition.
After four and a half years of CGC grading, there have been 2,052 copies graded.
That's roughly 1%.

Should we expect that another 1% will be graded in the next four years?
When would we expect to see 5% on the census? 10 years? Never?

There are 48,000 copies of Harbinger #1.
After four and a half year of CGC grading, there have been 72 copies graded.
That's 0.15%. Obviously, the book is not as popular as Hulk 181,
and there is not as much demand for CGC graded copies of the book.
But, using percentages... when do we expect to see 1% on the census?
How about 2%? Even 2% would mean less than 1,000 copies graded.

On the other hand, a book like Harbinger 0 Pink has already passed 2%
in terms of the percent of the print run that has been CGC graded.

Both Harbinger 1 and Harbinger 0 Pink are closing in on 100 graded copies.

Though it's possible for any comic book to be CGC graded,
it looks like the majority simply won't be, for whatever reason.

If there are never more than 1,000 CGC graded copies of Harbinger 1 or Harbinger 0 Pink...
what effect do you think the original print runs would have on the graded comic market?

DawgPhan · Post by **DawgPhan** » Wed Aug 18, 2004 12:32:38 pm

x-omatic wrote:
DawgPhan wrote:Well since you asked I dont have any...I really dont care for this book...I didnt really like the comic when I was collecting back in the day and now HATE the idea of paying more for this book than any other book in the run since I dont really care to own it...I do have 2-6 all missing the coupons, but as I said I dont really care for this book...
But why do you think that I dont have one? Because my grading couldnt possibly be as good as yours? I just dont get it...What makes you think that I couldnt possibly have one? Because I havent spent as much money on these books as you have? I dont even know how we got to this...i never said that I thought that any of my books were 9.8s or anything even remotely close....I guess that you could be trying to make a point, but I dont know what it is...9.8 books are rarer than say a 9.0 book...No one doubts that. I am saying that 9.8 are not as rare as everyone wishes they were...
And if I cared about having one I would GAY-RUN-TEE that I could have one with the next 6 months that I had graded myself. All it takes is money...simple...
I wasn't implying anything about your grading or the amount of money you have to spend. My point is, I have found that most people that talk down something don't have it. You are making statements about the book not being as hard to get in 9.8, yet don't own a high grade one yourself. Myself, and many other, have felt that Harbinger 1 is the hardest to get in high grade. Whether you care about that or not, the number support this.

As far as 9.8 books being rare? It all depends on the book. Look at the number on Harb 1 & Harb 0. Also not how many 9.0 and lower books of Harb 1 have been graded. There are real condition issues with this book. I am not saying all books are as hard to get in 9.8, but some are way harder than others. Thus they comand a lot more money.

If I dont have one does that mean I cant throw in my opinion about graded books? Hmm... didnt know that..
I am not really talking down about a harbinger 9.8...I just dont really care for graded books nor do I care for harbinger books. What I am wondering is how long before the numbers no longer support this books as being rare or hard to get in grade? a month ago there was only 2 copies grade 9.8...this month there is at least 5...wow know what next month brings...surely a few dollar auctions will bring some more outta collections...if there was 30 copies grade 9.8 or better would that suggest that it is no longer hard to find in grade? what about 40 copies...I am just wondering when it will no longer be a big deal...

http://www.gregholland.com/cgc/issues.a ... arend=1995

Hmmm I seem to remember there being some question about a defect that was shared by all harby pinks and people thinking that it was hard to get in grade....nearly 30 copies of it are in 9.8

Hmm the "numbers" also support that harbinger 6 is very tough to get in grade since there has yet to be a single copy graded 9.8 or better...

hmmm...

I based on these numbers everyone should be going crazy waiting on the next harbinger 6 9.8 to come down the pike....people will be selling their first born children to get the first 9.8 copy of harbinger 6....good luck on that everyone...

TLC55555 · Post by **TLC55555** » Wed Aug 18, 2004 12:50:42 pm

DawgPhan wrote:
x-omatic wrote:
DawgPhan wrote:Well since you asked I dont have any...I really dont care for this book...I didnt really like the comic when I was collecting back in the day and now HATE the idea of paying more for this book than any other book in the run since I dont really care to own it...I do have 2-6 all missing the coupons, but as I said I dont really care for this book...
But why do you think that I dont have one? Because my grading couldnt possibly be as good as yours? I just dont get it...What makes you think that I couldnt possibly have one? Because I havent spent as much money on these books as you have? I dont even know how we got to this...i never said that I thought that any of my books were 9.8s or anything even remotely close....I guess that you could be trying to make a point, but I dont know what it is...9.8 books are rarer than say a 9.0 book...No one doubts that. I am saying that 9.8 are not as rare as everyone wishes they were...
And if I cared about having one I would GAY-RUN-TEE that I could have one with the next 6 months that I had graded myself. All it takes is money...simple...
I wasn't implying anything about your grading or the amount of money you have to spend. My point is, I have found that most people that talk down something don't have it. You are making statements about the book not being as hard to get in 9.8, yet don't own a high grade one yourself. Myself, and many other, have felt that Harbinger 1 is the hardest to get in high grade. Whether you care about that or not, the number support this.

As far as 9.8 books being rare? It all depends on the book. Look at the number on Harb 1 & Harb 0. Also not how many 9.0 and lower books of Harb 1 have been graded. There are real condition issues with this book. I am not saying all books are as hard to get in 9.8, but some are way harder than others. Thus they comand a lot more money.

If I dont have one does that mean I cant throw in my opinion about graded books? Hmm... didnt know that..
I am not really talking down about a harbinger 9.8...I just dont really care for graded books nor do I care for harbinger books. What I am wondering is how long before the numbers no longer support this books as being rare or hard to get in grade? a month ago there was only 2 copies grade 9.8...this month there is at least 5...wow know what next month brings...surely a few dollar auctions will bring some more outta collections...if there was 30 copies grade 9.8 or better would that suggest that it is no longer hard to find in grade? what about 40 copies...I am just wondering when it will no longer be a big deal...

http://www.gregholland.com/cgc/issues.a ... arend=1995

Hmmm I seem to remember there being some question about a defect that was shared by all harby pinks and people thinking that it was hard to get in grade....nearly 30 copies of it are in 9.8

Hmm the "numbers" also support that harbinger 6 is very tough to get in grade since there has yet to be a single copy graded 9.8 or better...

hmmm...

I based on these numbers everyone should be going crazy waiting on the next harbinger 6 9.8 to come down the pike....people will be selling their first born children to get the first 9.8 copy of harbinger 6....good luck on that everyone...

Hey Dawg...are you related to Joe Collector on the GCG boards?

Escaflown4 · Post by **Escaflown4** » Wed Aug 18, 2004 12:57:00 pm

greg wrote:It will be interesting to see what percentage of "total print runs"
become 'the norm' on the CGC census after 5, 10, or 20 years.
(Particularly for books that have been collected/protected.)

For example, Incredible Hulk 181 had a print run around 200,000 copies.
It came out in 1974, so it was "collected" as much as any modern comic book would be,
considering the "boom" in comic book collecting took place around 1964,
and again in 1968.

So, we've got a well-known book, Hulk 181, with a print run around 200,000 copies,
many, many copies were collected and are available on the back issue market,
all of them are "slab-able" because the book is in demand in almost any condition.
After four and a half years of CGC grading, there have been 2,052 copies graded.
That's roughly 1%.

Should we expect that another 1% will be graded in the next four years?
When would we expect to see 5% on the census? 10 years? Never?

There are 48,000 copies of Harbinger #1.
After four and a half year of CGC grading, there have been 72 copies graded.
That's 0.15%. Obviously, the book is not as popular as Hulk 181,
and there is not as much demand for CGC graded copies of the book.
But, using percentages... when do we expect to see 1% on the census?
How about 2%? Even 2% would mean less than 1,000 copies graded.

On the other hand, a book like Harbinger 0 Pink has already passed 2%
in terms of the percent of the print run that has been CGC graded.

Both Harbinger 1 and Harbinger 0 Pink are closing in on 100 graded copies.

Though it's possible for any comic book to be CGC graded,
it looks like the majority simply won't be, for whatever reason.

If there are never more than 1,000 CGC graded copies of Harbinger 1 or Harbinger 0 Pink...
what effect do you think print runs would have on the graded comic market?

Hi Greg, your point is well observed and well taken. What I'm trying to say is this. Everyday people submit more books for CGC grading and most likely more copies of harbinger #1 9.8 will eventually surface. When more of these are introduced to the market, the question is will the value substain. The last copy of Harbinger #1 9.8 sold for a lil over $200 right? That's only when there were only 3 available at the time. Now that's there's 6, that's double the quantity on the market. Will people still pay the same amount or more knowing that most likely more of these will surface. I mean eventually that supply will meet the demand at some point in the future. Also Valiant books have a special case here. Their properties are lieing dormant right now, meaning there's not a bunch of new fans jumping in to get these books. The market is pretty much centered on the fans during the 90's that still have interest in them til this day. As of right now, people are picking out the variants to submit because of the lower print runs, that's why there are more of em on the CGC census. With Harbinger #0, you only have 3000 available copies that people can submit while Harbinger #1 have 48,000 potential copies. Along the way Harbinger #1 will eventually outnumber Harbinger #0 on the 9.8 scale. As you observered, this is a slow process. People all around the world are not gonna pick out their copies and submit it asap, but according to the CGC census, more and more Valiant books are beginning to get graded recently. The grading for Valiants are picking up and I can most definitely say more copies of Harbinger #1 9.8 are coming our way.

As in the case of Hulk 181, sure there's alot more copies printed compared with Harbinger. This book hailed from the 70's which is a lot older then the Valiants. How many of those 200,000 copies have survived through the time? Wolverine is a favorite amongst countless number of fans so it's hard to say if the book will decrease in value as more high grade gets submitted. More and more people are jumping into his fandom due to his exposure that Marvel is giving him. So you definitely have more new people looking for his first appearance in the market.

Bottom line is Valiant is a small niche market. Since Acclaim is just sitting on the property, there wont be a bunch of new folks coming in looking for 9.8 valiant books. We pretty much dictate the market value of these books amongst our group. So when the time comes when each of us have a copy of Harbinger #1 9.8, will it still hold the value of $200+? That's why I'm making the point that the lower the print run, the more chance the value will substain in higher grade through time.