Thinking about what books will matter to Valiant 2012...

Heath · Post by **Heath** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:59:33 pm

I agree that there was some decent Acclaim stuff. I wouldn't object to the Ninjak change you mentioned. And I kinda liked Troublemakers and wouldn't mind seeing them integrated somehow. Quantum & Woody has been discussed already. But when it comes to Shadowman, I'm very biased. The Valiant/Bob Hall run of Shadowman is my favorite run of comics. Ever. The Acclaim version was a travesty and I don't want to bring that back. I don't expect others to have the same opinion, but that's where I am on this topic. I reserve the right to change my opinion in the future too.

Daniel Jackson · Post by **Daniel Jackson** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:47:45 pm

Heath wrote:I agree that there was some decent Acclaim stuff. I wouldn't object to the Ninjak change you mentioned. And I kinda liked Troublemakers and wouldn't mind seeing them integrated somehow. Quantum & Woody has been discussed already. But when it comes to Shadowman, I'm very biased. The Valiant/Bob Hall run of Shadowman is my favorite run of comics. Ever. The Acclaim version was a travesty and I don't want to bring that back. I don't expect others to have the same opinion, but that's where I am on this topic. I reserve the right to change my opinion in the future too.

I liked Bob's version of Shadowman, but I thought the premise was getting a little stale, to tell you the truth. It also botherd me that his death was always looming overhead and we were going to be getting a new Shadowman after 1999. I agree that the first version of Acclaim's Shadowman was awful, but when they retooled the character after issue 16, I started to enjoy the series right up until the end of the V3 run. They wouldn't have to get rid of Jack or Max for that matter. I think there is room enough for all three.

xodacia81 · Post by **xodacia81** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:51:00 pm

Daniel Jackson wrote:
Heath wrote:I agree that there was some decent Acclaim stuff. I wouldn't object to the Ninjak change you mentioned. And I kinda liked Troublemakers and wouldn't mind seeing them integrated somehow. Quantum & Woody has been discussed already. But when it comes to Shadowman, I'm very biased. The Valiant/Bob Hall run of Shadowman is my favorite run of comics. Ever. The Acclaim version was a travesty and I don't want to bring that back. I don't expect others to have the same opinion, but that's where I am on this topic. I reserve the right to change my opinion in the future too.

I liked Bob's version of Shadowman, but I thought the premise was getting a little stale, to tell you the truth. It also botherd me that his death was always looming overhead and we were going to be getting a new Shadowman after 1999. I agree that the first version of Acclaim's Shadowman was awful, but when they retooled the character after issue 16, I started to enjoy the series right up until the end of the V3 run. They wouldn't have to get rid of Jack or Max for that matter. I think there is room enough for all three.

DJ, that's EXACTLY what I was saying. I think what I'd like is to see Bob Hall return to Shadowman, but to add in the elements that made issues 16-21 and v3 so good. Namely, a serious treatement of Voudo as part of the culture of New Orleans and the region, as part of the backdrop to the story. I think a 12-36 issue maxi-series would be awesome.

Daniel Jackson · Post by **Daniel Jackson** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:56:55 pm

xodacia81 wrote:
Daniel Jackson wrote:
Heath wrote:I agree that there was some decent Acclaim stuff. I wouldn't object to the Ninjak change you mentioned. And I kinda liked Troublemakers and wouldn't mind seeing them integrated somehow. Quantum & Woody has been discussed already. But when it comes to Shadowman, I'm very biased. The Valiant/Bob Hall run of Shadowman is my favorite run of comics. Ever. The Acclaim version was a travesty and I don't want to bring that back. I don't expect others to have the same opinion, but that's where I am on this topic. I reserve the right to change my opinion in the future too.

I liked Bob's version of Shadowman, but I thought the premise was getting a little stale, to tell you the truth. It also botherd me that his death was always looming overhead and we were going to be getting a new Shadowman after 1999. I agree that the first version of Acclaim's Shadowman was awful, but when they retooled the character after issue 16, I started to enjoy the series right up until the end of the V3 run. They wouldn't have to get rid of Jack or Max for that matter. I think there is room enough for all three.
DJ, that's EXACTLY what I was saying. I think what I'd like is to see Bob Hall return to Shadowman, but to add in the elements that made issues 16-21 and v3 so good. Namely, a serious treatement of Voudo as part of the culture of New Orleans and the region, as part of the backdrop to the story. I think a 12-36 issue maxi-series would be awesome.

Sounds good to me.

Dino, make it so....

dhudson1 · Post by **dhudson1** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:59:16 pm

The problem with Quantum and Woody, and the Troublemakers is, while they may have been entertaining, they would not fit in with the core concept of Valiant that made it memorable. Although dealing with characters with powers, the best of Valiant tried to show what the real world would be like if these "superheroes" were real.

kevinbastos · Post by **kevinbastos** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:55:03 pm

Daniel Jackson wrote:
xodacia81 wrote:
Daniel Jackson wrote:
Heath wrote:I agree that there was some decent Acclaim stuff. I wouldn't object to the Ninjak change you mentioned. And I kinda liked Troublemakers and wouldn't mind seeing them integrated somehow. Quantum & Woody has been discussed already. But when it comes to Shadowman, I'm very biased. The Valiant/Bob Hall run of Shadowman is my favorite run of comics. Ever. The Acclaim version was a travesty and I don't want to bring that back. I don't expect others to have the same opinion, but that's where I am on this topic. I reserve the right to change my opinion in the future too.

I liked Bob's version of Shadowman, but I thought the premise was getting a little stale, to tell you the truth. It also botherd me that his death was always looming overhead and we were going to be getting a new Shadowman after 1999. I agree that the first version of Acclaim's Shadowman was awful, but when they retooled the character after issue 16, I started to enjoy the series right up until the end of the V3 run. They wouldn't have to get rid of Jack or Max for that matter. I think there is room enough for all three.
DJ, that's EXACTLY what I was saying. I think what I'd like is to see Bob Hall return to Shadowman, but to add in the elements that made issues 16-21 and v3 so good. Namely, a serious treatement of Voudo as part of the culture of New Orleans and the region, as part of the backdrop to the story. I think a 12-36 issue maxi-series would be awesome.
Sounds good to me.

Dino, make it so....

Me, too. I can remember reading the Acclaim Shadowman (1-15), and thinking... What? Why are they hyping THIS garbage?

Daniel Jackson · Post by **Daniel Jackson** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:13:07 pm

kevinbastos wrote:
Daniel Jackson wrote:
xodacia81 wrote:
Daniel Jackson wrote:
Heath wrote:I agree that there was some decent Acclaim stuff. I wouldn't object to the Ninjak change you mentioned. And I kinda liked Troublemakers and wouldn't mind seeing them integrated somehow. Quantum & Woody has been discussed already. But when it comes to Shadowman, I'm very biased. The Valiant/Bob Hall run of Shadowman is my favorite run of comics. Ever. The Acclaim version was a travesty and I don't want to bring that back. I don't expect others to have the same opinion, but that's where I am on this topic. I reserve the right to change my opinion in the future too.

I liked Bob's version of Shadowman, but I thought the premise was getting a little stale, to tell you the truth. It also botherd me that his death was always looming overhead and we were going to be getting a new Shadowman after 1999. I agree that the first version of Acclaim's Shadowman was awful, but when they retooled the character after issue 16, I started to enjoy the series right up until the end of the V3 run. They wouldn't have to get rid of Jack or Max for that matter. I think there is room enough for all three.
DJ, that's EXACTLY what I was saying. I think what I'd like is to see Bob Hall return to Shadowman, but to add in the elements that made issues 16-21 and v3 so good. Namely, a serious treatement of Voudo as part of the culture of New Orleans and the region, as part of the backdrop to the story. I think a 12-36 issue maxi-series would be awesome.
Sounds good to me.

Dino, make it so....
Me, too. I can remember reading the Acclaim Shadowman (1-15), and thinking... What? Why are they hyping THIS garbage?

They didn't do themselves any favors by making it a mature themed book, that's for sure. It was way too dark and depressing to make it in the long haul.

IanAlexavier · Post by **IanAlexavier** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:50:55 pm

Daniel Jackson wrote:
They didn't do themselves any favors by making it a mature themed book, that's for sure. It was way too dark and depressing to make it in the long haul.

Exactly! I sure hope DNV sticks with a "reading for (nearly) all ages" type of formula

Now that I said THAT I will hope that Q&W would be given a chance. I think it was a neat concept of a book. I also think that the powerband technology could have a Spider Alien origin.

Unblessed · Post by **Unblessed** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:49:56 pm

The ones that generate money.

StarBrand · Post by **StarBrand** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:59:36 pm

Is it fair to call Eternal Warrior #6 the first full Master Darque?

greg · Post by **greg** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:13:26 pm

StarBrand wrote:Is it fair to call Eternal Warrior #6 the first full Master Darque?

Good question.
Master Darque appears at least 10 times in Shadowman #8...
always in the shadows or viewed from the back.
Tattoos are slightly visible on his head on the cover
and also near the end of the book, but he's not "completely revealed"
until the cover of Eternal Warrior #6, and multiple times inside the book.

In some ways, this is similar to when a character is shown in one book,
but not shown "in costume" until another book.

Obviously, "skin" isn't a costume, but the tattoo designs function much the same way.

For another example of a similar situation...
Man of Steel #18 is considered the first full Doomsday appearance,
even though he has not yet been revealed with his "classic Doomsday look".
Doomsday in Man of Steel #18 is technically being obscured from view.

I believe that the first full Master Darque is still Shadowman #8,
but Eternal Warrior #6 is nearly as important by providing unobscured views
of Master Darque for the first time.

While we're on the subject, Shadowman #7 has Master Darque "speaking"
from within a limousine, however, all we can see is the car.
The first Master Darque contribution to the Valiant universe
would be those words in Shadowman #7.

So... what was the thing he said?

Master Darque in Shadowman #7 wrote:Try not to think, Clemenceau. They all performed exactly as expected. At the cemetery, Marty recognized the man in the mask. He will lead me to him. I wish to learn more about this Shadowman... before I kill him.

greg · Post by **greg** » Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:28:02 pm

Good points.

When it comes to villains, I think we've already seen VEI's interest in beefing up Harada (the extra story in Harbinger hardcover)
and the interest in making the Sect more comprehensive (the extra story in Archer & Armstrong hardcover).

Master Darque is interesting because he seems to be a classic "evil because it gets me more power" villain,
and there has got to be more to him than that. Is everyone just a pawn to him?

Money and power are fine as simple motivations for a little while, but they don't keep up interest for very long.
(For example, does anyone really want to read about the exploits of Dick Cheney?)

bribri · Post by **bribri** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:23:16 pm

I used to really enjoy the Eternal Warrior stories that involved the Immortal Enemy. I thought it was a clever concept and a nice antagonist for Gilad.

The concept allowed Gilad to defeat his enemy over and over again without having to come up with ridiculous ways for the villain to return. The justification was built into the concept.

xodacia81 · Post by **xodacia81** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:25:34 pm

Jay Tomio wrote:Oh, I may have to go reread that story in A&A HC

For example, does anyone really want to read about the exploits of Dick Cheney?
He does shoot people in faces.

Which is why GWB always stood BEHIND him.

wrunow · Post by **wrunow** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:31:07 pm

greg wrote:Good points.

When it comes to villains, I think we've already seen VEI's interest in beefing up Harada (the extra story in Harbinger hardcover)
and the interest in making the Sect more comprehensive (the extra story in Archer & Armstrong hardcover).

Master Darque is interesting because he seems to be a classic "evil because it gets me more power" villain,
and there has got to be more to him than that. Is everyone just a pawn to him?

Money and power are fine as simple motivations for a little while, but they don't keep up interest for very long.
(For example, does anyone really want to read about the exploits of Dick Cheney?)

I agree with Greg on this, except, all this stuff was done Pre-Warren Simons. I am looking forward to seeing exactly how he structures the new universe and how much it is tied to the past, although the new material in the HC's is probably safe, but you never know.

cjv · Post by **cjv** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:43:13 pm

jedimarley wrote:
Archer & Armstrong's first appearance is in #0
Holy Hoard Batman! Those 350 issues I have might be worth something?!

350!!

I only have about 5! (That and Shadowman 1 are the first two that I bought in the LCS).

Chris

cjv · Post by **cjv** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:47:02 pm

Villains I would like to see (major villains, that is)

Immortal Enemy
Harada
Spider Aliens
Darque (although I would like him to be revised a little...never a fan of the "necromantic energy)

Sect would be ok.

I don't think there should be TOO many "arch-villains". After all, if there are too many, they would be fighting each other as well! Just a few master puppeteers is fine with me.

Chris

xodacia81 · Post by **xodacia81** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:55:02 pm

cjv wrote:Villains I would like to see (major villains, that is)

Immortal Enemy
Harada
Spider Aliens
Darque (although I would like him to be revised a little...never a fan of the "necromantic energy)

Sect would be ok.

I don't think there should be TOO many "arch-villains". After all, if there are too many, they would be fighting each other as well! Just a few master puppeteers is fine with me.

Chris

Darque needs to be handled very carefully. He needs to straddle the border between terrifying and gallows-black-humor. He should be the scariest "creature" around when he's on his game.

bribri · Post by **bribri** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:55:38 pm

Villains I would like to see (major villains, that is)

Immortal Enemy
Harada
Spider Aliens
Darque (although I would like him to be revised a little...never a fan of the "necromantic energy)

Sect would be ok.

I don't think there should be TOO many "arch-villains". After all, if there are too many, they would be fighting each other as well! Just a few master puppeteers is fine with me.

Chris

No Pierce?

Burrito Boy · Post by **Burrito Boy** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:56:22 pm

cjv wrote:Villains I would like to see (major villains, that is)

Immortal Enemy
Harada
Spider Aliens
Darque (although I would like him to be revised a little...never a fan of the "necromantic energy)

Sect would be ok.

I don't think there should be TOO many "arch-villains". After all, if there are too many, they would be fighting each other as well! Just a few master puppeteers is fine with me.

Chris

If Darque's power wasn't based on "necromantic power", what would you guys suggest replacing it with?

I don't have any idea myself so I thought I'd ask you guys what you think.

cjv · Post by **cjv** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:50:30 pm

bribri wrote:
Villains I would like to see (major villains, that is)

Immortal Enemy
Harada
Spider Aliens
Darque (although I would like him to be revised a little...never a fan of the "necromantic energy)

Sect would be ok.

I don't think there should be TOO many "arch-villains". After all, if there are too many, they would be fighting each other as well! Just a few master puppeteers is fine with me.

Chris
No Pierce?

I still hold out hope that since we can't have Solar, a "good" Pierce (split off from insane Pierce) will take his place in the Universe. Of course, we could still have insane Pierce, but she is locked away in a wormhole or something.

cjv · Post by **cjv** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:51:14 pm

Burrito Boy wrote:
cjv wrote:Villains I would like to see (major villains, that is)

Immortal Enemy
Harada
Spider Aliens
Darque (although I would like him to be revised a little...never a fan of the "necromantic energy)

Sect would be ok.

I don't think there should be TOO many "arch-villains". After all, if there are too many, they would be fighting each other as well! Just a few master puppeteers is fine with me.

Chris
If Darque's power wasn't based on "necromantic power", what would you guys suggest replacing it with?

I don't have any idea myself so I thought I'd ask you guys what you think.

I don't know. I just don't want to see too much "magic".

Chris

yardstick · Post by **yardstick** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:31:58 pm

bribri wrote:
Villains I would like to see (major villains, that is)

Immortal Enemy
Harada
Spider Aliens
Darque (although I would like him to be revised a little...never a fan of the "necromantic energy)

Sect would be ok.

I don't think there should be TOO many "arch-villains". After all, if there are too many, they would be fighting each other as well! Just a few master puppeteers is fine with me.

Chris
No Pierce?

Erica Pierce (Mothergod) has too many ties to Solar, and not enough ties to any other Valiant character (except during Unity). I imagine we will not see too much of her (initially), since she is primarily associated with the Lost Land. This gives one the impression that the VEI universe will take place after Unity.

VEI's new continuity, I suspect, will be largely based upon Rai 0; which has little reference to Solar, Magnus or Turok, and is heavily biased towards Harbinger, Bloodshot and XO Manowar, with a tip of the hat to Shadowman, Eternal Warrior, and Archer & Armstrong. Also found in there are the H.A.R.D. Corps and some underdeveloped/undeveloped/unrecognizable heroes.

I like the idea of having Quantum & Woody as a fictional "comic book" within the VEI universe, a la "BloodS.C.R.E.A.M."

yardstick · Post by **yardstick** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:41:29 pm

Burrito Boy wrote:
cjv wrote:Villains I would like to see (major villains, that is)

Immortal Enemy
Harada
Spider Aliens
Darque (although I would like him to be revised a little...never a fan of the "necromantic energy)

Sect would be ok.

I don't think there should be TOO many "arch-villains". After all, if there are too many, they would be fighting each other as well! Just a few master puppeteers is fine with me.

Chris
If Darque's power wasn't based on "necromantic power", what would you guys suggest replacing it with?

I don't have any idea myself so I thought I'd ask you guys what you think.

I don't see any reason to change it, since the Shadowman power should probably cancel it out. I suspect that VEI could write shadowman like Rai was originally intended to be written: Jack's death cancels out the majority of the "free floating" necromantic power, reducing Darque to a more maneagable level. This would prevent Darque from being so overpowering that none of the other heroes could go toe-to-toe with him.

Alternately, having so much necromantic power available would certainly allow for multiple Shadowman(s) to be extant to provide balance. Read the Recluce books to get the concept I am driving at here, if you like.

dave · Post by **dave** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:10:19 am

greg wrote: while the first Valiant appearance of Turok in Magnus #12 won't matter in Valiant 2012 storylines.

Your entire post is filled with errors! lol

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Thinking about what books will matter to Valiant 2012...

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