Valiant as a key industry player?

[Aram]

Forgive me for starting a new thread, but I would really like to discuss something I just posted in another coming from the variant craze.

What do you all think about VEI, It's future in the industry and where the comic industry as a whole is headed?

The original post is below;

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I see the 1:20 variants as a bad idea. It seperates the small shops from the large. At a 1:5 ratio that is printed to demand I think every one would be happy. Small shops that might only order 3 copies of a title can then order 2 more in order to get a variant that they could likely sell for double the cover price.

More issues in more shops means greater exposure. Anything less than 1:5 makes it too common to be of interest and anything higher than 1:10 makes it too hard to obtain for all the small lcs out there, thereby cutting them out of the whole incentive to order more in the first place.

The market has just changed too much from the 90's when valiant started the premium Variant craze. It was a good idea then and it is a good idea now, but something has to be weighed in order to reward all shops equally.

Small shops will not take chances on huge orders. And as much as I hate to admit it, ordering 20 copies of a new Companies title is just not possible for small shops.
It only caters to the larger mid size shops.

I can only guess... But I'd say 25-40% of shops out there are small shops that could not order 20 of one title unless it was already a continuous top 50 title.

These small shops may not be a huge part of the bottom line in the industry's financial statements, but they are the only thing keeping this industry and art form alive and thriving. More attention needs to be paid to them or we will keep declining as we have been for the last decade.

I think Valiant is in a key role that will greatly contribute to either the rise or fall of the industry from here on out.
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[tevans333]

Forgive me for starting a new thread, but I would really like to discuss something I just posted in another coming from the variant craze.

What do you all think about VEI, It's future in the industry and where the comic industry as a whole is headed?

The original post is below;

----

I see the 1:20 variants as a bad idea. It seperates the small shops from the large. At a 1:5 ratio that is printed to demand I think every one would be happy. Small shops that might only order 3 copies of a title can then order 2 more in order to get a variant that they could likely sell for double the cover price.

More issues in more shops means greater exposure. Anything less than 1:5 makes it too common to be of interest and anything higher than 1:10 makes it too hard to obtain for all the small lcs out there, thereby cutting them out of the whole incentive to order more in the first place.

The market has just changed too much from the 90's when valiant started the premium Variant craze. It was a good idea then and it is a good idea now, but something has to be weighed in order to reward all shops equally.

Small shops will not take chances on huge orders. And as much as I hate to admit it, ordering 20 copies of a new Companies title is just not possible for small shops.
It only caters to the larger mid size shops.

I can only guess... But I'd say 25-40% of shops out there are small shops that could not order 20 of one title unless it was already a continuous top 50 title.

These small shops may not be a huge part of the bottom line in the industry's financial statements, but they are the only thing keeping this industry and art form alive and thriving. More attention needs to be paid to them or we will keep declining as we have been for the last decade.

I think Valiant is in a key role that will greatly contribute to either the rise or fall of the industry from here on out.
---

I think story and artwork win out any day over incentives. The industry has been hurting and shrinking for some time. I don't think that less people are reading comics, it's just that less people are buynig them for speculation. You could say that the industry has been in a correction since the speculation bubble.

I don't know if I am older now or what, but I lean toward the independents more than the big 2. The Bendis/Johns dominance over those 2 has worn thin with me. But then again, maybe it's age. With that said, I think there is plenty of room in the market for a number 3 that can offer what the other 2 can't.

The problem I have with incentives is when the are used too heavliy they make the company retailer centric and less consumer centric. This relies on a "push" distribution chain rather then a "pull". Push is more akin to the auto industry where they build to plant capacity, then later give rebates and incentives to move leftover inventory, (they went bankrupt). Pull, is where your customer litteraly pulls through the appropriate amount through demand. It's a much healthier and leaner operation that way.

Now incentives are great as a promotional tool, however, when it becomes your only tool then you're in trouble.

Valiant only has 3 issues out right now, so it's expected that they would need to promote those heavily (7 variants of XO 1 and counting). So we will see what happens down the road once they have established themselves. It's too early to go crazy about it, but it is an area of concern to watch.

[Aram]

I for one was never a completist before recently. Though I might have slowely grown more toward that level with me rarely finding old Valiant gold logos, it was an ebay auction with nearly every gold that pushed me over the edge and turned me into a Valiant completist.

I have been collecting many titles by other publishers that have multiple covers but never felt the desire to get the alternates even if I had a cover version that I did not like. Valiant is just on a whole different level for me though. It makes things very tough now but will very soon reach an impossible level personally, which I am bracing myself for.

I just worry more though about the state of this ongoing variant craze within Valiant and that I do not see the shops in my region ordering more because of it. I know of many lcs that only ordered 3-5 copies of titles so far even knowing about the variant craze, simply because they cannot afford to risk a 20 copy order. They are all sold out of issues and yet still not increasing their orders.

The 1:20 variant incentive is just to far out of reach for them. This means less exposure to new readers for VEI and no incentive for the small shops to jump on investing more on the VEI bandwagon.

[Aram]

Oh and likewise...

The mid size shops that ordered enough for variants now have excess regular issues that are sitting or moving VERY slowely, and yet don't have the Variants to meet demand of the big fans like me. Thereby they have LOWERED orders because the incentive to order higher to get the variants is too much risk. Everyone is losing out here, though it may just be my region, I think VEI should look at how this is effecting their potential exposure and limiting it.

[greg]

Thereby they have LOWERED orders because the incentive to order higher to get the variants is too much risk. Everyone is losing out here, though it may just be my region, I think VEI should look at how this is effecting their potential exposure and limiting it.

They lowered orders to the amount of regular issues they believe they can sell (since they won't get incentives).
How is that different from the amount of regular issues they would order if there weren't any incentives to get?

[dhudson1]

No one seems to mention the big two have tons of variants each month. And I do not believe that VH1 started the variant trend. They had a handful of special gold issues, the big 2 and Image were more into multiple covers. XMen 1 anybody?

[greg]

No one seems to mention the big two have tons of variants each month. And I do not believe that VH1 started the variant trend. They had a handful of special gold issues, the big 2 and Image were more into multiple covers. XMen 1 anybody?

X-Men #1, Spider-man #1, Batman Legends of the Dark Knight #1, each of those had at least 5 covers (1989-1991) before Valiant.

[Heath]

Valiant is supposed to be different and better than other publishers.

[dhudson1]

Valiant is supposed to be different and better than other publishers.

And they are!

[tevans333]

Valiant is supposed to be different and better than other publishers.

And they are!

Then let's not use the argument that because the other publishers do it makes it ok. I think higher of Valiant, I don't want that to diminish to the level of the other publishers. And besides, most of the big 2 variants are on their huge summer crossover event books or other special issues. Not just random issue number 3 for no reason (mostly lol). Don't even get me started on last weeks Mars Attacks number 1, I lost count but I think it had 58 covers? No joke.

[Aram]

No one seems to mention the big two have tons of variants each month. And I do not believe that VH1 started the variant trend. They had a handful of special gold issues, the big 2 and Image were more into multiple covers. XMen 1 anybody?

"Premium" Variant trend. I don't know of any others before them that were like the gold logos. To my knowledge LODK and most if not all of Xmen and spiderman were just different covers. Not incentives.

[Aram]

Thereby they have LOWERED orders because the incentive to order higher to get the variants is too much risk. Everyone is losing out here, though it may just be my region, I think VEI should look at how this is effecting their potential exposure and limiting it.

They lowered orders to the amount of regular issues they believe they can sell (since they won't get incentives).
How is that different from the amount of regular issues they would order if there weren't any incentives to get?

It's not. I'm not one who is against the Variant incentives. That's the whole point of the Incentives though... to get them to order more.

I'm just saying that making them too premium is cutting out the smaller shops and I think costing them greatly in free advertising.

Providing a means for more shops to keep more copies on the shelves is worth it's weight in gold as advertising and promotion.

[Chiclo]

Valiant is supposed to be different and better than other publishers.

Are you familiar with the International Scout, Heath? It was a tank of a car. It was much better and cooler than any contemporary vehicle. Dare I say, it is the best import ever made. International made tough cars but did not make smaller, more fuel-efficient cars so they had a very narrow market. Today, International doesn't make cars but Ford makes more cars today than they did back when they were making crappy Scout-knockoff Broncos.

I don't want Valiant to be International. The way they avoid that is variants.

[kevinbastos]

Incentive started out for thanks to retailers and super fans. Anyone else remember that? Not only did you have to break an arm to get one, getting ALL of them wasn't realistic for financially feasible.

Being a completionist (thanks, Greg) became plausible because the bottom dropped out. Now, it's possible, with competition.

[Aram]

Thereby they have LOWERED orders because the incentive to order higher to get the variants is too much risk. Everyone is losing out here, though it may just be my region, I think VEI should look at how this is effecting their potential exposure and limiting it.

They lowered orders to the amount of regular issues they believe they can sell (since they won't get incentives).
How is that different from the amount of regular issues they would order if there weren't any incentives to get?

Maybe it's better to say that the point I was trying to make is that the Variant incentive program is still to far out of their reach and that even though they are sold out of all issues, they are STILL Not ordering more because they are afraid of even the smallest risk because they are such small shops that cater to such large varying interests.

[dhudson1]

Valiant is supposed to be different and better than other publishers.

And they are!

Then let's not use the argument that because the other publishers do it makes it ok. I think higher of Valiant, I don't want that to diminish to the level of the other publishers. And besides, most of the big 2 variants are on their huge summer crossover event books or other special issues. Not just random issue number 3 for no reason (mostly lol). Don't even get me started on last weeks Mars Attacks number 1, I lost count but I think it had 58 covers? No joke.

You obviously have not been looking at the big two lately, variants on top of variant, for no reason.

[GGSAE]

Valiant is supposed to be different and better than other publishers.

And they are!

Then let's not use the argument that because the other publishers do it makes it ok. I think higher of Valiant, I don't want that to diminish to the level of the other publishers. And besides, most of the big 2 variants are on their huge summer crossover event books or other special issues. Not just random issue number 3 for no reason (mostly lol). Don't even get me started on last weeks Mars Attacks number 1, I lost count but I think it had 58 covers? No joke.

So, let me get this straight....Valiant, being a new company, and not having the luxury of 70 years of history and culture, is supposed to operate outside the business models that the most dominant companies use to be successful? I think it's absurd we hold Valiant like a grail above everyone else; what do you expect them to do exactly? Wave a magic wand around? This talk about variants is bordering on ridiculous...When you guys say better than other publishers, you want them to produce the best product out there, but somehow do it outside industry norms?

[dhudson1]

No one seems to mention the big two have tons of variants each month. And I do not believe that VH1 started the variant trend. They had a handful of special gold issues, the big 2 and Image were more into multiple covers. XMen 1 anybody?

"Premium" Variant trend. I don't know of any others before them that were like the gold logos. To my knowledge LODK and most if not all of Xmen and spiderman were just different covers. Not incentives.

Spiderman had incentive covers, a platinum wasn't it? Was there more than one, can't remember.

[Aram]

No one seems to mention the big two have tons of variants each month. And I do not believe that VH1 started the variant trend. They had a handful of special gold issues, the big 2 and Image were more into multiple covers. XMen 1 anybody?

"Premium" Variant trend. I don't know of any others before them that were like the gold logos. To my knowledge LODK and most if not all of Xmen and spiderman were just different covers. Not incentives.

Spiderman had incentive covers, a platinum wasn't it? Was there more than one, can't remember.

I know there's a "platinum" second print... I bought it 6 months ago in a 50cent bin.

But seriously I think the was maybe 1 real platinum for spiderman besides the silver ink one, but thats why I said "mostly".

Valiant did it first by being simple and consistant with their premium variants.. Name me one alternate cover for any vh1 title. There are none. Just gold logo platnum reds and a pink.

99.9% sure they were the first to do a 0 issue and they made it a sendaway.

[jmatt]

No one seems to mention the big two have tons of variants each month. And I do not believe that VH1 started the variant trend. They had a handful of special gold issues, the big 2 and Image were more into multiple covers. XMen 1 anybody?

X-Men #1, Spider-man #1, Batman Legends of the Dark Knight #1, each of those had at least 5 covers (1989-1991) before Valiant.

I was there. Did it.

LOTDK was just one weak cover in a bunch of different colors. At least with VEI variants ya get new art.

[Helios]

The first Zero issue ever that I am aware of was by Adventure Comics on their title the Adventurers in 1986. Awesome stuff - you should check them out, they were the Valiant of the B&W indy craze of the late 80's. They also did limited variant covers for the #1 issues - that also may be an industry first (and the 2nd print of the original #1 also had an alternate cover so 3 total).


http://www.comics.org/issue/40894/cover/4/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Aram]

The first Zero issue ever that I am aware of was by Adventure Comics on their title the Adventurers in 1986. Awesome stuff - you should check them out, they were the Valiant of the B&W indy craze of the late 80's. They also did limited variant covers for the #1 issues - that also may be an industry first (and the 2nd print of the original #1 also had an alternate cover so 3 total).


http://www.comics.org/issue/40894/cover/4/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Black and white indy comics are like comparing a Corvette to a horse drawn carriage. Only one is currently street legal on the freeway.

[Aram]

I do say that 0 issue had a sweet cover for an indy.

oh.. Maybe a better comparison would be who created the first Car?

I'll give you a hint. It wasn't Ford, but does who made it really matter in the big picture? Ford was the first to do it right and it changed the world.

Microsoft and windows 95. Apple and the iPhone. AOL and internet access. Blizzard and World of Warcraft.

Wizard Magazine and the speculator's market. oops...

[Helios]

I should add that the Adventurers was a seriously Hot title at the time - probably equivalent to Saga right now. The premium Skeleton cover was selling for $100 at this time and the the reg edition about $10. Its not like it went unnoticed. Shooter definitely had to have seen what they were doing. I actually got into comics because of this series - there was a write up in Newsday I think, and all the mail-order dealers like Mile High and American Comics were giving free copies of the Zero issue away with their orders. The company had quite a few titles - including the Planet of the Apes and Alien Nation licenses (also with alternate covers). Adam Hughes' first artwork was in their titles Star Rangers and Death Hawk. Aircel, the company from which Adventure Publications sprang, was a major player in the industry for a while. They gave us Tom Grummett and Dale Keown's first art, Men in Black, and the original Walking Dead comic. The Aircel, Adventure and Eternity B&W companies were eventually folded into the emerging distribution giant Malibu in the early nineties. Ex-Mutants was an eternity title that survived into the Malibu universe (Ron Lim started his career with that one).

The adventurers had 3 different series (existing in a shared universe with several other titles) - the first two had Zero issues.

Just a piece of history that should not be forgotten.

http://www.comics.org/issue/290006/cover/4/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Chiclo]

Helios, we have a thread that involves checklists for the companies that became Malibu. We would gladly take any more interesting tidbits like that that you have to offer.

viewtopic.php?f=40&t=32249" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;