Bloodshot #0 Discussion

[jmatt]

Your argument reminded me of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PMlDidyG_I

One of the best episodes of Star Trek TNG

You would be Picard

Magnus, please call your office.

[CallMeBloodshot]

In the first or second issue, Kuretich says something to the effect of "Oh my beautiful blue eyed boy, what did they make you do?" That made it sound like it was one guy, not a collection of people.

I don't think he is a collection of people. I don't think he is a person at all. I think he is a living machine. Probably one that Kuretich worked on quite a bit and took ownership of (much like a father) which is very common with roboticists.

How is he not a person? Our brains are essentially computers in that they process information. In this case the data is memories, and the software to carry it out is free will, or sentience. Of course he's a person. Anyone that can reflect on their actions and feel emotion is a person in my book.

You trying to get in good with SkyNet too? Good move.

I wouldn't consider a machine a person. That was my point. I really don't want to get in that debate, though.

Well if its for some personal belief that fair enough. But to deny that there is any difference from a scientific standpoint would be silly. Bloodshot is a sentient, feeling being. You can call him a machine or even an ice cream cone if you want, but he's no different from a human in this aspect. In fact, I still maintain he's almost more human considering he has the past lives of others implanted into his brain. The existence of those memories makes it real. He's not one but many.

You said you like Bladerunner, what do you think the whole point of the movie was haha. People always point to Deckard being a replicant as some big twist. Which it was if you interpreted it that way, and personally I did. But where the real meditation with that movie lies is with does it even matter? His life is just as valuable regardless. Thats why he was spares at the end. Its why the tears in rain speech has such significance. Its also why Deckard himself spared and fell in love with the teplicant woman. He still had life experiences and memories. Whether they were implanted or not doesnt make them any less real within the mind of a sentient being. Not to mention all of us right now could be 3 year old replicants, or brains in a vat somewhere that are plugged into a computer. All these ideas and philosophies point to this notion that what is real is what happens in the mind. But anyway, I'm really going down the rabbit hole now, but hopefully you see my point.

[CallMeBloodshot]

How is he not a person? Our brains are essentially computers in that they process information. In this case the data is memories, and the software to carry it out is free will, or sentience. Of course he's a person. Anyone that can reflect on their actions and feel emotion is a person in my book.

This issue makes me agree with Dunlow. The concept of Bloodshot (as presented here) is a bucket of nanites poured onto a bios mass that then shapes itself into human form.

Of course he's a person? Okay, who? That's what I think readers were expecting to learn and we still have no idea if he's that original guy from 1993 or has absorbed more souls since then. If so, which soul is Bloodshot?

As for reflecting on actions and feeling emotion, that may be something we see from time to time in the current timeline but it certainly was nowhere in this issue.

I'm saying that he's a person in that he's a thinking, reflecting, emotional being. I could care less what his host name was. Thats because He's become something much different entirely. Whoever the host body was before is just that now: a host. Who he "is" now is a collection of MANY people and their memories. THAT'S what's interesting to me. Even if we know who the host body was before (which I think we did learn that from my understanding) it has no bearing on his consciousness now as we know his mind has implanted memories.

And I tend not to harp on the "soul" stuff as I personally don't believe in "souls". At least not the same way as others. But I guess it depends how one defines it. To me, if one is a sentient, self aware being, they have what id call a soul. So that qualities Bloodshot in my mind and that's why I call him a person.

[CallMeBloodshot]

In the first or second issue, Kuretich says something to the effect of "Oh my beautiful blue eyed boy, what did they make you do?" That made it sound like it was one guy, not a collection of people.

I don't think he is a collection of people. I don't think he is a person at all. I think he is a living machine. Probably one that Kuretich worked on quite a bit and took ownership of (much like a father) which is very common with roboticists.

How is he not a person? Our brains are essentially computers in that they process information. In this case the data is memories, and the software to carry it out is free will, or sentience. Of course he's a person. Anyone that can reflect on their actions and feel emotion is a person in my book.

Your argument reminded me of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PMlDidyG_I

One of the best episodes of Star Trek TNG

You would be Picard

Haha love TNG

And you guys can just call me Picard from now on. I'm fine with that

[AnthonyF]

And as their pinnacle achievement, you'd think the words Project Rising Spirit would appear somewhere in the issue.

Rees mentions them on the first page - I think the second panel.

I was underwhelmed by this issue too. Glad it wasn't just me, I felt like I was reading a different book.

Considering the next issue, I expected SOME tie-in to HARDCorps, maybe some scenes from the 80s or 90s. The flashback to 90's Bloodshot was nice. How about the WW II era Bloodshot? When he's described as Frankenstein's monster, I hope we get to see more of him, and the others.

Like JMatt mentioned, there is a jarring gap before Bloodshot attacks the soldiers. He goes from standing around, to shooting himself through the mouth! :'( Maybe I could charge that up to reading the story through comixology, panel to panel.


Guess I just wanted some HARDCorps action before next month... it'll be a long month...

[blujay]

I'd say this was good but disappointing. I was expecting a lot more answers but this book, for me, raised more questions. Don't get me wrong, the art was great (except for the cover) and the writing was superb, but this book was just very vague and didn't answer for many of the big questions I've had about the series. Hopefully we'll get answers in the next few issues.

Also Kindt is definitely a good fit for valiant, and I look forward to Unity

[SJS4]

FWIW you can count me as another person that was underwhelmed.

Hopefully the new direction for the title is more interesting.

[FormerReader]

It was a good issue, but it didn't add much to the series in my opinion. Harbinger #0 and A&A #0 and particularly Shadowman #0 added so much to their specific series. This issue was good, but it felt like there was something missing in the story. Maybe since the other 0 issues were so good I had the bar set too high. Overall a good issue just not what I expected.

[hunter_peterson]

And as their pinnacle achievement, you'd think the words Project Rising Spirit would appear somewhere in the issue.

Rees mentions them on the first page - I think the second panel.

I was underwhelmed by this issue too. Glad it wasn't just me, I felt like I was reading a different book.

Considering the next issue, I expected SOME tie-in to HARDCorps, maybe some scenes from the 80s or 90s. The flashback to 90's Bloodshot was nice. How about the WW II era Bloodshot? When he's described as Frankenstein's monster, I hope we get to see more of him, and the others.

Like JMatt mentioned, there is a jarring gap before Bloodshot attacks the soldiers. He goes from standing around, to shooting himself through the mouth! :'( Maybe I could charge that up to reading the story through comixology, panel to panel.


Guess I just wanted some HARDCorps action before next month... it'll be a long month...

Funny choice of words is funny!

[jmatt]

I guess one of the things bothering me is that I now don't feel like I know what a Bloodshot is. Before this issue I thought of him as a "who"; now I think of him as a "what". Perhaps that was their goal, I don't know. This post is a little wordy, my apologies.

There seems to be no shortage of nanites, we see him emerge from a tub of them -- and earlier experiments show test subjects being inundated with them. So what's to stop them from tossing another nearly dead subject into the vat? And another and another?

Being a former VH1 reader, to me, the concept of Bloodshot was that he was a unique creation, the transformation of a (living) man named Angelo Mortalli aka Mike Lazarus. So I am aware my perspective may be colored by unrealized expectations.

But this issue clouded the matter for me. We've been jockeying the notion that the nanites have had many hosts since these events based on his other memories. But I think we've also been told that these are all just fake memories implanted to motivate him. So maybe he really is just the one soul captured by the nanites and we're letting the memory implants lead us off on a goosechase... but then why give a black soul memories of white families? It's confusing.

The fact that none of us can remember the name of the black soldier whose soul was captured (do we even know? I don't have the issue in front of me) tells me that as a story, they really didn't key-in on the one thing anyone cares about : Who is Bloodshot?

As an aside, back in VH1, we also saw the process imbued on other individuals called Speedshots, the problem being that they had a very shortened lifespans (weeks). And of course we saw Iwatsu, the inventor of the process also attempt the transformation.

[AnthonyF]

Guess I just wanted some HARDCorps action before next month... it'll be a long month...

Funny choice of words is funny!

[lorddunlow]

The of the soldier who "donated" Bloodshot's soul was never named. Only one name was ever shown. I think this is because Bloodshot is the nanites. I have a feeling that vat of nanites is now gone.

[jmatt]

I think this is because Bloodshot is the nanites.

Well, via the AA arc we know the nanites came from the future when General Redacted sent them back to aid PRS. So maybe it's more interesting than we even know. Perhaps Rai's soul is the foundation for the nanites and the rest is incidental...

[Sir Sandrick]

I actually didn't enjoy the issue at all. The other #0s tend to give some insight and flesh things out the world, adding richness to the characters - The 3 brothers interacting in A&A 0 and linking to the beginning of issue 1, not to mention the first glimpse of the faraway. Shadowman 0 giving a back story to Darque, making him as even more interesting character than Jack at this point. Spectacular writing on that one that I hope we see more of in that title soon. Harbinger 0 is by far my favorite Valiant issue to date and it was just spot on excellent from the writing to the art.

Bloodshot 0 gave no more insight to any characters that we already know, instead telling it from a no name scientist... what happened to Kuretich's role? We get a whole lot of vague action and one REALLY bad panel... I tried to read pg 18 at least 20 times to figure out what was happening in that panel... and that should never be the case. Why was Bloodshot killing those guys anyway, wasn't that in his facility? So Bloodshot basically IS the nanites and they took over the new host's body?...After reading the other 0s I had a "Hell yeah!" feeling and after this one it was more like ".........ok?"

I liked elements of what the writer was trying to go for- 21 grams, trying to integrate the actual soul with the nanites before it leaves the body... but they never became more than ideas...

oh, and the cursive writing needed to be at least one point bigger... so tiny imo. All in all, I was really surprised at how little I enjoyed this issue given the reviews that I have seen of it. Especially given the track record of the other #0s this was a major disappointment. Really hopeful for a good X-O #0... so glad #16 delivered this week!

[BugsySig]

I think this is because Bloodshot is the nanites.

Well, via the AA arc we know the nanites came from the future when General Redacted sent them back to aid PRS. So maybe it's more interesting than we even know. Perhaps Rai's soul is the foundation for the nanites and the rest is incidental...

It was never said that the Nanites came from the Faraway. The PRs scientist says they "helped Kuretich and his Beta Site team a little with heir Nanites..." That's it. I really think it was just an Easter egg for readers and not some major insight into the origins of the Nanites.

[tchalla8]

I actually didn't enjoy the issue at all. the other #0s tend to give some insight into the character and flesh things out and give some roundness to the characters - The 3 brothers interacting in A&A 0 and linking to the beginning of issue 1, not to mention the first glimpse of the faraway. Shadowman 0 giving a back story to Darque, making him as even more interesting character than Jack at this point. Spectacular writing on that one that I hope we see more of in that title soon. Harbinger 0 is by far my favorite Valiant issue to date and it was just spot on excellent from the writing to the art.

Bloodshot 0 gave no more insight to any characters that we already know, instead telling it from a no name scientist... what happened to Kuretich's role? We get a whole lot of vague action and one REALLY bad panel... I tried to read pg 18 at least 20 times to figure out what was happening in that panel... and that should never be the case. Why was Bloodshot killing those guys anyway, wasn't that in his facility? So Bloodshot basically IS the nanites and they took over the new host's body?...After reading the other 0s I had a "Hell yeah!" feeling and after this one it was more like ".........ok?"

I liked elements of what the writer was trying to go for- 21 grams, trying to integrate the actual soul with the nanites before it leaves the body... but they never became more than ideas...

oh, and the cursive writing needed to be at least one point bigger... so tiny imo. All in all, I was really surprised at how little I enjoyed this issue given the reviews that I have seen of it. Especially given the track record of the other #0s this was a major disappointment. Really hopeful for a good X-O #0... so glad #16 delivered this week!

Glad I wasn't the only one who had the same reaction. From page 18 on it became an extremely difficult read. The momentum of the story came to a screeching halt at that point.

[Sir Sandrick]

My main thing is...

The scientist wanted to give him a soul to stop his mindless killing spree which was causing "collateral damage" so why then give him the soul of a government assassin that murders a couple before getting taken down by a mob in the streets? Why not give him the soul of someone who had some degree of empathy for human life, a firefighter, a police officer perhaps... I thought it was strange and a little unoriginal to give him the soul of a soldier, just too obvious.

Also, in issue #1 Bloodshot broke his protocol and does a 180 in the line of duty. I was REALLY HOPING that this issue would cover why he did that after so many past lives of wanton violence.... I think to not utilize this issue to answer questions like that was pretty unfortunate...

[first_citizenx]

I want to read some stories about the Vietnam Bloodshot. I mean, with that afro and 'stache, you know he was one bad mofo! Probably even sounded like Sam Jackson.

Seriously, I liked the way he looked!

[missjay]

... I thought it was strange and a little unoriginal to give him the soul of a soldier, just too obvious.

It could have been a soldier, sure why not?

But how about a soldier - taken out by his superiors- because he didn't do what he was told to do. A soldier with a conscience, a lot easier to track down and 'harvest' than a random soldier getting killed somewhere, who did, who knows what.

[pixierosa]

Missjay! Hello! Happy to see another woman on the board.

In regards to the Bloodshot origin, I think the purpose of this book is more to the origin/idea of what Bloodshot is rather than the who. The "who" is being defined everyday (not unlike ourselves), his "memories" help shape his responses but they are not who he is...neither is he the body that the nanites are using as a host.

[hawkeyeps]

I'm not sure that the Bloodshot we see at the end of #0 is today's Bloodshot.

This may have been the moment the nanites achieved sentience, a controlled sentience whose first order was to kill all the witnesses.

This may have been the moment they referred to early on in Bloodshot about the nanites evolving in a living subject.

Some where between now and then was the grey goo incident... what the hell was PRS doing in Attlee Nevada?

Bloodshot in his current incarnation was already created and used by PRS to wipe out Attlee with PRS having Pulse as yet another measure of covering up a mess, what was the point of Attlee?

Was it an attempt to create the next generation of Bloodshot?

Rai maybe?

[erwinrafael]

Somebody has to give Chris Cross a regular gig.

[Baramos]

Re: is Bloodshot black or white--'70s Bloodshot and 1993 Bloodshot are definitely black according to this. Not sure what the current Bloodshot is supposed to be but since he's a nanite-infused albino I don't think it much matters! That said I'd guess the "base" for the current Bloodshot was white. But it's just a body--infusing a body with the nanite artificial consciousness is what "creates" Bloodshot.

I suppose the current Bloodshot does care whose body he inhabits right now, but he'll probably figure out it doesn't much matter since whatever existed of that person has been amalgamated with all his past lives.

My main thing is...

The scientist wanted to give him a soul to stop his mindless killing spree which was causing "collateral damage" so why then give him the soul of a government assassin that murders a couple before getting taken down by a mob in the streets? Why not give him the soul of someone who had some degree of empathy for human life, a firefighter, a police officer perhaps... I thought it was strange and a little unoriginal to give him the soul of a soldier, just too obvious.

Also, in issue #1 Bloodshot broke his protocol and does a 180 in the line of duty. I was REALLY HOPING that this issue would cover why he did that after so many past lives of wanton violence.... I think to not utilize this issue to answer questions like that was pretty unfortunate...

I'm guessing either it's easier to take a soldier's body for your "base" or your experiments because you can just declare them MIA overseas.

As for why he does the 180, I thought Kuretich "hacked" him so he was self-aware of the fact that his memories are just made up? That's why he goes AWOL. For all we know he's become self-aware before, but they've recaptured him and "reset" him before too much damage was done.

One thing I wondered: it seemed like the way he created a "soul" for Bloodshot is that Bloodshot absorbs the information of whoever he encounters, or maybe whoever he kills? If so, the scientist who created the soul could now be part of Bloodshot's personality and that's what finally allowed him to develop a conscience. Or maybe he meant that Bloodshot absorbs the personality of the body they use to make him? I was a bit confused.

[greg]

One thing I wondered: it seemed like the way he created a "soul" for Bloodshot is that Bloodshot absorbs the information of whoever he encounters, or maybe whoever he kills? If so, the scientist who created the soul could now be part of Bloodshot's personality and that's what finally allowed him to develop a conscience. Or maybe he meant that Bloodshot absorbs the personality of the body they use to make him? I was a bit confused.

That's what I'm wondering as well.

If he killed the scientist at the end, he would have all the scientists's memories and the scientists's "soul".

It would be the first time he was "programmed" with more than just a soldier's thoughts and memories.

If he didn't kill the scientist at the end, then the first "soul" he acquired would have actually made a difference.

Either way, Bloodshot became something more because of the scientist.

Additiionally, there is a member of the Generation Zero kids who seems to be able to do the same (Hive) without nanites, and we know that Aram was infused with the "lives" of all the people destroyed by the Boon.

To go insane with possibilities for just a few sentences...
Aram could be the source of the "blood" that enables the development of the "soul taking" technologies in the Faraway, leading to the nanites.
Aram and Mary Maria both have the ability to have other souls trapped inside them, so (I told you it would be insane) Aram and Mary Maria have a son, Hive.

[bygranddesign]

Missjay! Hello! Happy to see another woman on the board.

In regards to the Bloodshot origin, I think the purpose of this book is more to the origin/idea of what Bloodshot is rather than the who. The "who" is being defined everyday (not unlike ourselves), his "memories" help shape his responses but they are not who he is...neither is he the body that the nanites are using as a host.

yeah I think you hit the nail on the head

I don't think the over arching narrative of Bloodshot is him trying to figure out he is "Joe Smith"

Its much more interesting than that

Its about this Frankenstein creation that is both man and machine with these incredible nanites - who has gained sentience through the collecting of a soul.

Its easy to see how this will shape the future of the Valiant Universe - Robots needing souls in order to obtain sentience is as interesting a concept I have heard in regards to a futurist's scifi vision of the world and the threat of Robots. Really, Really looking forward to future timeline - it could really be mind blowing.