Archer & Armstrong #13 Discussion

[greg]

[Paradigm38]

I'll second that! A little hay roll, a lot of action, and a timearc too. Excellent!

[swtor1091]

My god 10/10 everything flowed seamlessly and we even get a hint at Armstrong's future couldn't be any better pure perfection.... Bring on civil war

[grendeljd]

Fantastic issue, nice wrap-up to the story arc.

Very unfortunate fall-out between Archer & Armstrong. I have to admit, I'm scratching my head a bit about Mary-Maria though... there was just suddenly no further reference to her parents inhabitting/controlling her anymore for what, a few issues now? What is up with her character?

Interesting reveal on the Skymother, I kind of guessed it was coming as soon as the mystery character showed up. Great humour as always! [the mata-hari banana joke ]

Also, the nanite reference!

[hawkeyeps]

Very unfortunate fall-out between Archer & Armstrong. I have to admit, I'm scratching my head a bit about Mary-Maria though... there was just suddenly no further reference to her parents inhabitting/controlling her anymore for what, a few issues now? What is up with her character?

Yeah this exactly, if she is under the control of her dead parents, did they just have sex with Armstrong or did Mary Maria?

If it was her parents then that's pretty creepy and wrong and if it was Mary Maria then that kind of flies in the face of the whole set up of the story all the way back to issue #4.

As for Aram sleeping with her Archer was right on, what an a-hole! I would say he lacks any kind of wisdom what so ever and he's supposed to be some wise old immortal drunk? "Oh I was drunk" "She's not your wife"... facking pathetic! This character just became much lesser for me.

Once again FVL has managed to *SQUEE* me off with his writing, I haven't disliked an issue of Valiant this much since A&A #5 which still to this day stands as crappy issue with no real reason why the characters were doing what they were doing (especially Gilad).

Now that FVL has put all this on the table with Mary Maria he better have a hell of good resolution in mind, if it's lame I will drop the book.

edit- had my 4&5 mixed up

[kjjohanson]

Also, the nanite reference!

FLV tweeted this today:
Let's just say some of Ivar's predictions will come to pass sooner rather than later RT @keithborders Nanite body?? Explain, please!!

Here's my guess: there's an upcoming storyline where Bloodshot's nanites rebuild his body but in Armstrong's image, due to some genetic mixup. This is the Bloodshot that Archer "destroys" (obviously with no lasting damage to any of the principle players).

[pixierosa]

I enjoyed this book. I know some people are having a WTF moment about that "coupling" and I'll get to that in a minute, but the rest of the book? Really enjoyed it. There are quite a few characters in the cast right now, but I felt like FVL did a good job of giving them personality. Ambrose, and his unwillingness to fight/kill, Earhart the flygirl and how she became a skymother, even Ivar. And how about that bomb Ivar dropped about Aram's regenerative abilities? We suspected this, but...

Mary-Maria. Sigh. I tend to think that this was her doing. No "flipping way" did her daddy want to do the dirty with Armstrong. I think they inhabit her, guide/nudge her to do things, maybe even convince her that it's her own idea, but they don't fully control her. She's not an autobot. Prime example, the first time she saw a grey in area 51, she cursed it as some sort of abomination and started shooting. Her parents didn't want her to do that, and even discussed with each other that one could hardly blame her reaction. That was pure Mary-Maria.

I'm inclined to think that this idolization was, too. Perhaps a bit of momma. There's a lot going on here and some things don't exactly add up for me, but I'm not sure if that's on purpose or what happens when a guy tries to write about a woman. First off, we know Mary-Maria was raised the same as Obie but she did run away for a while. What happened to her, and what all she got up to during that time, is unknown. It's safe to assume that she's had some experiences that Obie hasn't.

Now, we all know she "loves" Obie. At least what she thinks is love. Her feelings toward him may also be because she has such a limited social circle (her siblings), and having once run away and discovered that she couldn't make it out there on her own, probably felt that the rest of her life would be served as a warrior of her parent's cause. Doesn't exactly make for many chances to meet someone and fall in love. But she did have someone right within the group that she admired (we know she loves power) and was likely crushing on. It's like living on an island with a very limited pool of potential mates. She was drawn to Obie b/c of his fighting ability, his dedication, and his being a favorite of the parents. That fits with what I've seen of her lately. But when you move off that island, there's suddenly a lot bigger pool of potential mates. She's what, 18? Judging by past issues, she's developed a better sense of her own sexuality and is definitely dressing the part (nothing wrong with that).

I had a hard time believing they just fell into bed together, though. I had thought that given her upbringing, she was still a virgin. It's not likely that smoking some weed and getting a little drunk is going to make her drop pants so easily - not for her first time, given her biblical upbringing. I get the feeling that the Archers are of the Adam VS. Eve sort of people. So, maybe she wasn't a virgin. Maybe during her runaway time, she experienced a bit more of life. Who knows? It also could have been mama Archer influencing her a bit. But she was definitely infatuated with Armstrong's power and had idealized him in her head (see the last panel of issue 12).

Armstrong disappointed me. I hated seeing him do that - very self-centered of him, especially when he knew how Obie felt about her. That's the part that makes him a *SQUEE* friend. He could have chosen one of the native chicks. He lives very in the moment, and I understand why, what with everything he knows and loves changing and dying while he remains the same. Still not excusable.

I sent a joking tweet to FVL saying "bros before hoes". I actually hate that line, but it does summarize this pretty well. They were good friends, and he betrayed him for a bit of sex - I doubt he has any meaningful feelings for her, so that makes it worse. If he was actually in love with Mary Maria...

One things for sure, I feel bad for whomever becomes her next notch. They have to follow a regenerative immortal who's had a thousands of years of experience to work on technique

All kidding aside, good read except for the disappointment of Armstrong's behavior, but it is a good setup for the split. Also, I like how Obie sort of lost his *SQUEE* in his own way, stealing the map and screwing over everyone else by hopping a portal. Dick-move, but understandable, and also more interesting than just going neanderthal on Armstrong.

[jmatt]

Great issue, love the Perez artwork. Little disappointed in Aram and Mary Maria but *SQUEE* happens. This is definitely gonna be a different relationship for Archer & Armstrong going forward.

[hawkeyeps]

Exactly, Armstrong is a pig. I'm 43 and I wouldn't even consider sleeping with an 18 year old girl, that's just wrong.

Imagine if I had an apprentice and I was training him about electrical, plumbing, building envelope and stuff. I become friends with him and meet his "girlfriend", she is awed by my massive power so I decide to do her cause I'm drunk. Then I'm like "chill out bro, it's not like you're married".

That is beyond weak sauce, think about it...Armstrong has been around forever and he wouldn't see the *SQUEE* this would cause? If that's the case then it's a good thing he's immortal because he would have been Darwined a long time ago. Really I think this character sucks now he has no honour what so ever.

He's like a dumbass frat boy who over stayed his welcome, I hope Erica shows up and fries his bacon once and for all! DOOSH

[pixierosa]

Exactly, Armstrong is a pig. I'm 43 and I wouldn't even consider sleeping with an 18 year old girl, that's just wrong.

Imagine if I had an apprentice and I was training him about electrical, plumbing, building envelope and stuff. I become friends with him and meet his "girlfriend", she is awed by my massive power so I decide to do her cause I'm drunk. Then I'm like "chill out bro, it's not like you're married".

That is beyond weak sauce, think about it...Armstrong has been around forever and he wouldn't see the *SQUEE* this would cause? If that's the case then it's a good thing he's immortal because he would have been Darwined a long time ago. Really I think this character sucks now he has no honour what so ever.

He's like a dumbass frat boy who over stayed his welcome, I hope Erica shows up and fries his bacon once and for all! DOOSH

I like how indignant you are about this. It's nice to know you're not a dirty old man. We know he has always been hedonistic, but this was disappointing and completely gross with the age difference. I suppose everyone is a child compared to him, but ick. Most importantly, it was a betrayal of trust and loyalty. Makes him look like a huge d-bag.

Just realized, if Ivar knows so much about the future, how did he not see Obie stealing the map and hopping the time stream? Perhaps he didn't know this particular bit. Takes a bit of the fun out of it if you have a character who knows everything that's going to happen.

[dornwolf]

Just realized, if Ivar knows so much about the future, how did he not see Obie stealing the map and hopping the time stream? Perhaps he didn't know this particular bit. Takes a bit of the fun out of it if you have a character who knows everything that's going to happen.

I think it's almost like a Doctor Who time travel attitude, certain events have to happen no matter what and are unchangeable while others a more timey-whimey. I think Ivar knows both more and less than he lets on. When Archer first mentioned Mary Maria he had know idea who that was and was far more worried about "Faith" here he seemed to be fully aware of what was about to happen and was clearly content with allowing it. Mind he he also might've realized what was going to happen with out the help of time travel.

[hunter_peterson]

Just realized, if Ivar knows so much about the future, how did he not see Obie stealing the map and hopping the time stream? Perhaps he didn't know this particular bit. Takes a bit of the fun out of it if you have a character who knows everything that's going to happen.

I think it's almost like a Doctor Who time travel attitude, certain events have to happen no matter what and are unchangeable while others a more timey-whimey. I think Ivar knows both more and less than he lets on. When Archer first mentioned Mary Maria he had know idea who that was and was far more worried about "Faith" here he seemed to be fully aware of what was about to happen and was clearly content with allowing it. Mind he he also might've realized what was going to happen with out the help of time travel.

I think it's more that the volume of information Ivar has makes it hard for him to pick out things that are specifically relevant to the moment he's in. He witnessed all time. Every thought must be like falling down a hyperlink hole on Wikipedia or TVTropes, tangents springing off like crazy. I really, really like how Ivar is being written here!

I really liked this issue. And the MM/Armstrong thing was obviously but I really liked it. You guys are all right when you talk about her background and Armstrong's betrayal, but you're not seeing it from their perspective enough, I think.

Mary-Maria is a screwed up young girl sold as a child by her father to even worse religious fanatics and trained to be an assassin in the conglomerate of all cults. She's never known love from anyone except for Archer, really, and has never, ever had a parental figure to look up to in any healthy way. She's clearly into power, because she's been powerless for her whole life. Armstrong is a proxy parental figure for her in a way, because she knows he's older than time, he treated her like a real human being (even Archer treats her like she's his possession) and offered her actual choices. And good old fashioned fun. Not only that, but she's freshly immortal and he's the only other one in the world like her. They DO have a special connection in that, so it makes sense they would feel it in some way.

Armstrong also said he lives only in the moment because immortality means leaving everybody you love in the past where you found them. She's the only woman he's known (that we know of) that isn't like that. Sure, he's BFF with Archer, but they both will outlive Archer and he HAS to be attracted to that, even subconsciously. Plus she looks up to him and people generally treat him like a clown. Always have, since he was mortal. So there's that playing into it too. Plus, he's just kind of a drunken man *SQUEE*, like Archer said, so it isn't like he's not known to be impulsive sexually.

I actually think they could work as a great couple and be really good for one another, but her Sect involvement is a problem. Plus the possession thing... very interesting love triangle.

[Blood of Heroes]

Well said, Hunter.

[BugsySig]

I loved the issue as usual. A few thoughts on others comments:

Mary-Maria's Parents: While I would like to see this more clearly resolved, the way I looked at it is last issue when MM decided to fight with the Roanoke's she broke her "parent's" control over her. See my comment on the "Nanite Body" for more insight.

Armstrong and MM doin' the nasty: Armstrong is thousands of years old. I don't think "age" means anything to him anymore. It was a total dick move, but Armstrong is a *SQUEE* so it was in character. He says it himself: Live life to the fullest. You're partying with the lost colony of Roanoke at the command of their Skymother, pounding cactus beers, and a beautiful, half-naked girl throws herself at you...You're telling me you wouldn't tap that too?

The Nanite Body: Assuming Ivar is not just confused about where he is in the timeline, and taking his comment at face value, here...Armstrong believes he was infused with thousands of "souls" from the activation of the Boon. But what if those souls are not "souls" but souls? You follow? No? I'll give you a hint: Bloodshot #0. You with me? Souls. Nanites. Regeneration. Immortality. Voices in your head. Sound like anyone else we know? Only Aram runs on beer like Bender from Futurama instead of protein

[bygranddesign]

Exactly, Armstrong is a pig. I'm 43 and I wouldn't even consider sleeping with an 18 year old girl, that's just wrong.

What if you were immortal? And you lived 6000+ years? You think you would be a "perfect" "moral" person that whole time?

That's 100 lifetimes ... still in the prime of your life (physiologically) with no physical consequences when it comes to over indulging when it comes to drinking, food and sex. You have seen every friendship and lover DIE hundreds of times over...
Aram has seen morality change hundreds of times over ...depending on the culture and the time period.

I'm actually surprised he isn't more "screwed" up morally. When you live that long and seen so many atrocities and seen so many people you care about die and seen so many cultures change when it comes to "right" and "wrong"... it would be easy to subscribe to an idea of "Moral Relativism". I'm not saying that's what Aram subscribes to ... He obviously feels what he did was WRONG and obviously feels terrible about what he did. I think you need to lay off the brother a little bit ... the amount of outrage doesn't fit the crime

On the moral outrage scale this would be pretty low on the list.

Peter controlling Kris and making her kiss him and had her do who knows what else? That deserved outrage
And all the death in these comics ...cold blooded death... from Hardcorp, Bloodshot, Peter ..etc

But this is why I read Valiant comics. Its for a realistic take on a superhero universe.

I don't want to read a story of an immortal through the lens of Disney

He's like a dumbass frat boy who over stayed his welcome, I hope Erica shows up and fries his bacon once and for all! DOOSH

The same Erica who wants to play God by wiping out all reality ... and sleeps with her son? Even a Moral Relativist would say that's messed up..

[hunter_peterson]

Well said, Hunter.

Thanks!

[bygranddesign]

The Nanite Body: Assuming Ivar is not just confused about where he is in the timeline, and taking his comment at face value, here...Armstrong believes he was infused with thousands of "souls" from the activation of the Boon. But what if those souls are not "souls" but souls? You follow? No? I'll give you a hint: Bloodshot #0. You with me? Souls. Nanites. Regeneration. Immortality. Voices in your head. Sound like anyone else we know? Only Aram runs on beer like Bender from Futurama instead of protein

Yeah, I think I follow you.

The way I see it is that the Boon comes from a future in which Sentient Cities/Nanites are inter-weaved into everything. When the Boon was set off the first time(issue 1) ... it didn't just wipe out everyone ... it killed them and collected their soul. For whatever reason, Aram became the host ... fully recreated by the nanites and inhabiting the souls of everyone that was wiped out.

That's another thing to consider by the way in regards to the moral outrage of Aram

He also has thousand of souls inhabiting him and that might influence his behavior as well ... as we see it influences Mary-Maria. Mary-Maria acts normal at times ... but I think her life and actions are being shaped by the souls of those who were lost when the boon was set off in issue 4 (including her parents)

[Savant]

Ivar & Obie were amazing fighter-pilots considering this was their first time flying planes and shooting down opposition in a war zone.

Does the Faraway grant people amazing abilities during their stay there, or are Ivar & Obie unbelievably quick learners?

Once again FVL has managed to *SQUEE* me off with his writing, I haven't disliked an issue of Valiant this much since A&A #5 which still to this day stands as crappy issue with no real reason why the characters were doing what they were doing (especially Gilad).

Now that FVL has put all this on the table with Mary Maria he better have a hell of good resolution in mind, if it's lame I will drop the book.

edit- had my 4&5 mixed up

I usually love Archer & Armstrong, but I didn't care for this issue. Not as bad as this month's Harbinger, but I was not impressed.

Also, after the past couple issues of A&A, I've come to the conclusion I far prefer Lupacchino & Clayton Henry over Pere Perez.

Exactly, Armstrong is a pig. I'm 43 and I wouldn't even consider sleeping with an 18 year old girl, that's just wrong.

Says you.

I loved the issue as usual. A few thoughts on others comments:

Mary-Maria's Parents: While I would like to see this more clearly resolved, the way I looked at it is last issue when MM decided to fight with the Roanoke's she broke her "parent's" control over her. See my comment on the "Nanite Body" for more insight.

Armstrong and MM doin' the nasty: Armstrong is thousands of years old. I don't think "age" means anything to him anymore. It was a total dick move, but Armstrong is a *SQUEE* so it was in character. He says it himself: Live life to the fullest. You're partying with the lost colony of Roanoke at the command of their Skymother, pounding cactus beers, and a beautiful, half-naked girl throws herself at you...You're telling me you wouldn't tap that too?

A valid rationalization/explanation of what went on.

I think there's a strong possibility the parent(s) had her do such to split Obie & Aram apart. Obviously, they wouldn't have known Obie would walk in on them that night, but Obie would eventually realize something's going on down the line.

[bygranddesign]

Fantastic issue, nice wrap-up to the story arc.

Very unfortunate fall-out between Archer & Armstrong. I have to admit, I'm scratching my head a bit about Mary-Maria though... there was just suddenly no further reference to her parents inhabitting/controlling her anymore for what, a few issues now? What is up with her character?

I'm convinced now that the influence is an underlying one

Mary-Maria has the souls of everyone that died because of the boon (in issue 4) ... and their souls influence her behavior but she is still the host and ultimately she is the one piloting the ship

I think the same will eventually be revealed about Aram ... he also has these souls inside him and shape who he is ...and therefore might explain some of his more questionable behavior

[bygranddesign]

Ivar & Obie were amazing fighter-pilots considering this was their first time flying planes and shooting down opposition in a war zone.

Does the Faraway grant people amazing abilities during their stay there, or are Ivar & Obie unbelievably quick learners?

Ivar is a super genius immortal who has traveled throughout time using these time arcs - it's safe to assume he has flown pretty much everything

Obie's ability is that he is able to learn anything. He also downloads skills from the Akashic field.

[Keith]

Also, the nanite reference!

FLV tweeted this today:
Let's just say some of Ivar's predictions will come to pass sooner rather than later RT @keithborders Nanite body?? Explain, please!!

Here's my guess: there's an upcoming storyline where Bloodshot's nanites rebuild his body but in Armstrong's image, due to some genetic mixup. This is the Bloodshot that Archer "destroys" (obviously with no lasting damage to any of the principle players).

Hey, that was my tweet! Something satisfying about seeing it show up on the board I frequent the most!

Loving this discussion on the nanite body and what this means about Armstrong's immortality. So...

Aram - Immortal due to futuristic nanites (perhaps)
Gilad - Immortal due to the Earth literally refusing to let him die
Ivar - Immortal? I mean, besides for being stuck in the Faraway, do we have any indication that he would not age/heal all wounds outside it?

[greg]

CRAZY thought... because I like crazy thoughts...

Armstrong and Mary-Maria have just CONCEIVED A CHILD outside of the normal timestream, so it could be a child in any point in history.

That child will become...

Obadiah Archer.

[bygranddesign]

Aram - Immortal due to futuristic nanites (perhaps)
Gilad - Immortal due to the Earth literally refusing to let him die
Ivar - Immortal? I mean, besides for being stuck in the Faraway, do we have any indication that he would not age/heal all wounds outside it?

It would make sense that Mary-Maria also has a Nanite rebuilt body as well. It would explain why she was floating and glowing at the end of Issue 4. Her body was being put back together by the nanites.

[hunter_peterson]

CRAZY thought... because I like crazy thoughts...

Armstrong and Mary-Maria have just CONCEIVED A CHILD outside of the normal timestream, so it could be a child in any point in history.

That child will become...

Obadiah Archer.

Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

[greg]

CRAZY thought... because I like crazy thoughts...

Armstrong and Mary-Maria have just CONCEIVED A CHILD outside of the normal timestream, so it could be a child in any point in history.

That child will become...

Obadiah Archer.

Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

It's the Luke and Leia kiss, isn't it?