Bleeding Monk #0 discussion

[paradise]

VH1 Harada learns later how to jump bodies (via Rai #0). Could Bleeding Monk be the way that works in VEI?

[Jace]

HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I just figured it out .... there is no way the Monk and Ivar can have a discussion about knowing all thing from all times, because ..... (drum roll please) they are the same person. The monk is Ivar at the end of all time, the end of existence going back to be a "greek" and eventually ending up as the bleeding Monk!!!!!! How crazy is that?

[Captain Craig]

The whole thing is stunning. I need to re-read it and see if I notice anything different, but it is both informative and non-spoilerish.

This. Plus I read it literally as I was fighting sleep so it's likely even better than I recall.

[greg]

HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I just figured it out .... there is no way the Monk and Ivar can have a discussion about knowing all thing from all times, because ..... (drum roll please) they are the same person. The monk is Ivar at the end of all time, the end of existence going back to be a "greek" and eventually ending up as the bleeding Monk!!!!!! How crazy is that?

You're very close, but not quite.

Ivar, the long-haired guy we've seen naked a few times... is in the Bleeding Monk #0 story... as the long-haired naked guy.

[Aomalle27]

In general I'm not a fan of #0 issues, they just present filler for the most part instead of adding some lasting or important material. And while this ussue wasn't just filler, it does present the problem that is actually presents more questions than it offers answers. Of course I'm thinking the Bleeding Monk is actually a dual psiot/nanite infused being. Thus with the nanites, he's able to actually change his appearance (see Bloodshot who also possesses this ability, however only temporarily), and would also be able to sustain his life without food, sleep, and would be able to suffer the massive blood loss that he experiences. Although with the extended abilities he has versus Bloodshot, I believe he's actually a future enabled nanite being. Thus the references to seeing the past and the future. Interesting issue, but definitely something that needs more exploration.

Jace wrote:

HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I just figured it out .... there is no way the Monk and Ivar can have a discussion about knowing all thing from all times, because ..... (drum roll please) they are the same person. The monk is Ivar at the end of all time, the end of existence going back to be a "greek" and eventually ending up as the bleeding Monk!!!!!! How crazy is that?

You're very close, but not quite.

Ivar, the long-haired guy we've seen naked a few times... is in the Bleeding Monk #0 story... as the long-haired naked guy.

If that's true, how is Ivar alive, when the mystic is clearly seen deceased when the Monk awakens? Also, how do you explain the different appearance, since we've only seen Ivar drawn as Ivar, and not appearing any other way, in A&A? (Don't remember Ivar showing up in any other titles so far)

[greg]

You're very close, but not quite.

Ivar, the long-haired guy we've seen naked a few times... is in the Bleeding Monk #0 story... as the long-haired naked guy.

If that's true, how is Ivar alive, when the mystic is clearly seen deceased when the Monk awakens? Also, how do you explain the different appearance, since we've only seen Ivar drawn as Ivar, and not appearing any other way, in A&A? (Don't remember Ivar showing up in any other titles so far)

Because Ivar could be anywhere at any time.

There's a really old Gilad in Eternal Warrior #5.

So, a really, really old Ivar in Bleeding Monk #0 would be possible.

If Ivar eventually dies as an old man... he could die anywhere at any time.

He could be an old man who dies in Bleeding Monk #0.

[lorddunlow]

You're very close, but not quite.

Ivar, the long-haired guy we've seen naked a few times... is in the Bleeding Monk #0 story... as the long-haired naked guy.

If that's true, how is Ivar alive, when the mystic is clearly seen deceased when the Monk awakens? Also, how do you explain the different appearance, since we've only seen Ivar drawn as Ivar, and not appearing any other way, in A&A? (Don't remember Ivar showing up in any other titles so far)

Because Ivar could be anywhere at any time.

There's a really old Gilad in Eternal Warrior #5.

So, a really, really old Ivar in Bleeding Monk #0 would be possible.

If Ivar eventually dies as an old man... he could die anywhere at any time.

He could be an old man who dies in Bleeding Monk #0.

He definitely could be Ivar, but I'm not so sure he is Ivar. He seems surprised that the Monk manifests these powers. He is fearful of them the way a human from ancient Greece would likely be. If it was Ivar, it would have to be a version who had already seen all of time (and therefore shouldn't be surprised of anything).

I suppose if it was Ivar, it could be that he had not recognized the Bleeding Monk at first and the surprise and fear came from finally realizing. Especially if the Bleeding Monk does become a villain. (If he does end up evil, I called it back in the Harbinger #1 discussion almost two years ago.)

Also, he doesn't seem very Ivar-ish.

There is no way we aren't heading into an Ivar-Bleeding Monk confrontation in my opinion. As someone (edit: it was bygranddesign) pointed out, there is an incredible parallel between the Bleeding Monk being stuck in time in the monastery while experiencing all of time and Ivar being stuck in the time vortex experiencing all of time at once.

I'm going to re-read all of Archer and Armstrong and all of Harbinger with these new revelations to see if there are any seeds or clues dropped.

I still strongly feel there will be some connection between the Bleeding Monk and Rai/Bloodshot - the wound in the chest is too much of a coincidence, especially since in VEI's universe Bloodshot describes his red circle a wound that never heals.

I for one love the way things are starting to collide. The last few weeks of reading has really reminded me of the month's leading up to Unity in VH1 in which there was overwhelming feeling that something was brewing across the whole line.

[Jace]

HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I just figured it out .... there is no way the Monk and Ivar can have a discussion about knowing all thing from all times, because ..... (drum roll please) they are the same person. The monk is Ivar at the end of all time, the end of existence going back to be a "greek" and eventually ending up as the bleeding Monk!!!!!! How crazy is that?

You're very close, but not quite.

Ivar, the long-haired guy we've seen naked a few times... is in the Bleeding Monk #0 story... as the long-haired naked guy.

Pretty interesting theory there Greg. I think I am sticking with mine though.

[mateo107]

so does anybody actually look like the race they're supposed to be? Bloodshoot is a black guy with white skin, Rai is an Asian with white skin, and Bleeding Monk is a white guy who looks Asian???

[jmatt]

HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I just figured it out .... there is no way the Monk and Ivar can have a discussion about knowing all thing from all times, because ..... (drum roll please) they are the same person. The monk is Ivar at the end of all time, the end of existence going back to be a "greek" and eventually ending up as the bleeding Monk!!!!!! How crazy is that?

I had a moment where I wondered if there was a connection. But I doubt it. It just doesn't fit, imo.

I for one love the way things are starting to collide. The last few weeks of reading has really reminded me of the month's leading up to Unity in VH1 in which there was overwhelming feeling that something was brewing across the whole line.

Ditto.

[Brother Darque]

Valiant needs to make a Bleeding Monk statue that has a running fake blood fountain from the monks chest.

like the Kiss blood fountain.

CV: Is anyone here making a big push for a Bleeding Monk statue?

WS: Dinesh is going on and on about a Bleeding Monk statue that actually bleeds and does not stop.

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[Ramses818]

Just so I can make it public I wanted to comment...this issue is of course AWESOME! The bleeding monk is that special kind of " grey" like so many other heroes in the Valiant universe. He has his view and he is setting his objectives based on that. I wonder how many people have read Dune. I think the bleeding is just a projection oh himself as he continues through time. It will be interesting to see when the other characters find out about him. With his abilities and planning (like Ivar and Archer) and long life he will be as dangerous as Mothergod was to V1. In his own way he may be the greatest threat to the universe.

[Baramos]

I think the subtext of choosing to manipulate the world instead of accepting it as it is was borne out in the actual physical actions of his students--some chose to accept their fates while others fought back. So he was probably of two minds on this himself, but being pinned to the rock and experiencing all moments of his life, future and past, at once, altered him towards wanting to affect the world.

By the way, what do you guys think is the nature of the spear? Do you think it's laced with nanites that become activated upon contact with blood (so it's actually from the future or the Faraway), and begin to try and kill an immortal by causing an unhealing wound? Or do you think it's actually magical in nature?

[lorddunlow]

By the way, what do you guys think is the nature of the spear? Do you think it's laced with nanites that become activated upon contact with blood (so it's actually from the future or the Faraway), and begin to try and kill an immortal by causing an unhealing wound? Or do you think it's actually magical in nature?

I was wondering this as well. I'm not sure if it is magical (and therefore more connected to EW or Shadowman), or if it is future tech.
If it is future tech, my money is Archer is involved.

[Bone-A-Fach-ee]

Huh? Not sure that this whole story really revealed too much to me? I didn't read any of the other comments before mine, but I'm sure I can't be alone in thinking that this didn't really reveal any big revelations, or advance the current story much? Am I wrong?

[jmatt]

Huh? Not sure that this whole story really revealed too much to me? I didn't read any of the other comments before mine, but I'm sure I can't be alone in thinking that this didn't really reveal any big revelations, or advance the current story much? Am I wrong?

Well I'd say spelling out his entire backstory was a pretty good reveal. It is a great zero issue, it's not intended to necessarily effect the current storyline.

[bamaphilosopher]

Ok, I haven't picked mine up yet...waiting for my first of the month paycheck.

You guys are getting me psyched about it. I hope I don't end up disappointed.

[Aomalle27]

Huh? Not sure that this whole story really revealed too much to me? I didn't read any of the other comments before mine, but I'm sure I can't be alone in thinking that this didn't really reveal any big revelations, or advance the current story much? Am I wrong?

Well I'd say spelling out his entire backstory was a pretty good reveal. It is a great zero issue, it's not intended to necessarily effect the current storyline.

I thought 0 issues entire purpose was to ADD to the story. This just seemed a lot like character development (not a bad thing), and not something that changes one's view on the character nor the current title (in this case Harbinger). What does this add to the story in Harbinger? Doesn't answer many Q's but does create a bunch more Questions. Is Harada more powerful than the Monk? (notice I didn't say more dangerous, since I believe the Monk is more clever and experienced) Is the Monk an immortal? How does the Monk sustain life without sleep or food, and with a never closing wound, that continually bleeds? How is the Monk able to change shape, and why did he pick Asian as his new form? To appease Harada when they first came in contact with one another? He had already forseen their meeting, why not take on a form that closely resembles that of Harada? Is the Monk manipulating Harada as Harada is manipulating Peter? Does Ivar tie into this story? What's with the spear, it resembles the look of the wheel of Aten and the null from A&A, is this another masterbuilder device? All this does not a 0 issue make.

[Baramos]

so does anybody actually look like the race they're supposed to be? Bloodshoot is a black guy with white skin, Rai is an Asian with white skin, and Bleeding Monk is a white guy who looks Asian???

In the issue it's mentioned that the Monk has actually changed his appearance over the years. "This is you. You are Greek. Before the mind changes the body itself. You had forgotten." It's implied that the Monk through meditation has somehow altered his very physical appearance. If his immortality is somehow related to nanites, then it's possibly similar to how Bloodshot can later his appearance. If not...perhaps if you meditate for a thousand years, you can make yourself look Asian.

By the way, was anybody else reminded of Slaughterhouse Five in this issue? The Monk has become "unstuck" in time, much like Billy Pilgrim, and is experiencing his entire life at all times.

[greg]

Wild theory... and it gets wilder with each sentence.

The Bleeding Monk is bleeding because nanites are continually attempting to "heal" him.

Because the Bleeding Monk is/was immortal, the nanites are "healing" someone who doesn't need to be healed, so they spill out.

The Bleeding Monk accesses the Akashic record and understands his relationship to all of his "prior selves"... that is, he is aware and potentially in communication with himself at different points in time.

According to Bleeding Monk #0, the monk was a Greek man, a blond Greek man, at some point in his past.
But his past is potentially his future, there's no real way to know, and because of time arcs and the Faraway, there is no "correct" time order.

A blond man... who would have been a blond teenager.

The Bleeding Monk is the future Obadiah Archer.

[lorddunlow]

Wild theory... and it gets wilder with each sentence.

The Bleeding Monk is bleeding because nanites are continually attempting to "heal" him.

Because the Bleeding Monk is/was immortal, the nanites are "healing" someone who doesn't need to be healed, so they spill out.

The Bleeding Monk accesses the Akashic record and understands his relationship to all of his "prior selves"... that is, he is aware and potentially in communication with himself at different points in time.

According to Bleeding Monk #0, the monk was a Greek man, a blond Greek man, at some point in his past.
But his past is potentially his future, there's no real way to know, and because of time arcs and the Faraway, there is no "correct" time order.

A blond man... who would have been a blond teenager.

The Bleeding Monk is the future Obadiah Archer.

We had lots of speculation about Archer being the Bleeding Monk eventually. That line of speculation ended after several pointed out the Bleeding Monk was Asian. This gives that. I honestly think he might be Archer.

As for Aomalle27 questioning what #0 issue is for - it's an origin story almost exclusively. This is the origin (at least a lot of it - I'm sure there will be more to find out) of the Bleeding Monk.

[jmatt]

Wild theory... and it gets wilder with each sentence.

The Bleeding Monk is bleeding because nanites are continually attempting to "heal" him.

Because the Bleeding Monk is/was immortal, the nanites are "healing" someone who doesn't need to be healed, so they spill out.

The Bleeding Monk accesses the Akashic record and understands his relationship to all of his "prior selves"... that is, he is aware and potentially in communication with himself at different points in time.

According to Bleeding Monk #0, the monk was a Greek man, a blond Greek man, at some point in his past.
But his past is potentially his future, there's no real way to know, and because of time arcs and the Faraway, there is no "correct" time order.

A blond man... who would have been a blond teenager.

The Bleeding Monk is the future Obadiah Archer.

So at some point, Archer is infused with nanites, travels back in time, forgets who he is, is then unable to access the Akashic record, forgets he can use any psiot power, becomes Greek, never notices that he instantly heals from any wound and goes on to meet the Naked Lover of Wisdom?

That's quite a stretch, wouldn't you say?

[greg]

So at some point, Archer is infused with nanites, travels back in time, forgets who he is, is then unable to access the Akashic record, forgets he can use any psiot power, becomes Greek, never notices that he instantly heals from any wound and goes on to meet the Naked Lover of Wisdom?

That's quite a stretch, wouldn't you say?

Which part is the stretch?

The travels back in time part? He's already been through time via both the Faraway and time arcs.
The infused with nanites part? Ivar says he destroys Bloodshot. With what? Good looks? Nanites, baby! (Speaking of nanite baby... he's the son of Armstrong and Mary-Maria ... both are nanite-infused.)
The forgets who he is part? Nanite-powered Bloodshot has no idea who he is.
The forgets how to access powers? He already has forgotten, see Archer #0.
Becomes Greek? Why not? If I went back in time, I'd pretend to be German or Italian. All you have to do is look like it.
Never notices that he heals from any wound? He doesn't have wounds until there's a spear in his chest... and he isn't exactly healing.

[jmatt]

(Speaking of nanite baby... he's the son of Armstrong and Mary-Maria ... both are nanite-infused.)

Now, now. We don't know that for a fact. yet

[agent_graves]

Upon a second reading, really taking my time and digesting everything over and over, I like it a little more than I did originally, it's a lot to take in, and everything isn't necessarily explained, but it was a dense issue that requires multiply reads, which is a testament to the creative team, and a benefit to us...

It'll be great if they actually get that Bleeding Monk Statue done up, it would probably run about $150, but it would definitely, be worth it...