On the subject of Rob Liefeld

The Dirt Gang · Post by **The Dirt Gang** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:05:02 am

I stumbled on some of my old New Mutants/X-Force books and it got me thinking about Rob Liefeld. He seems like such a polarizing guy. I have always thought he was a great idea man even when a lot of is ideas were rip offs of existing characters (i.e. Supreme, The Fighting American). He's had a great track record of surrounding himself with really talented people and therefore I've enjoyed a lot of the stories told by other people using his creations.

That being said I really don't like his artwork now and find it hard to believe I ever did. However, when I was a youngster and first discovered his artwork toward the end of his run on New Mutants, I was blown away. I remember thinking it was some of the coolest stuff I'd ever seen. Up until that point I was a casual reader of comics but Liefeld got me out to Walmart trying to track down every issue I could of New Mutants and then X-Force. At that time, we didn't have a comic shop in my town and you were pretty much left to buying those packs of 4-5 Marvel comics at Walmart.

As well, I was super excited about Image comics and particularly Youngblood. I was able to find all the other first issues of that initial run of Image, however, Youngblood sold out and was difficult to find. One day we stopped at a comic shop in the next town over and they had one copy of Youngblood #1 (second printing) and I was super stoked. I'm surprised the book is still in one piece I looked at it so much. (Side note: Savage Dragon was my favorite of Image first wave).

Even though I really don't like his artwork now, I consider myself a fan since he's responsible for getting me into comics and has been involved in some of my favorite comic runs - Alan Moore's Supreme and Brandon Graham's Prophet.

Cyberstrike · Post by **Cyberstrike** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:39:40 am

The Dirt Gang wrote:I stumbled on some of my old New Mutants/X-Force books and it got me thinking about Rob Liefeld. He seems like such a polarizing guy. I have always thought he was a great idea man even when a lot of is ideas were rip offs of existing characters (i.e. Supreme, The Fighting American). He's had a great track record of surrounding himself with really talented people and therefore I've enjoyed a lot of the stories told by other people using his creations.

The Fighting American was not created by Rob Liefeld he was created by Joe Simon and Jack Kirby. Liefeld created a character called Agent America (or something like that) as a middle finger to Marvel over firing him from Heroes Reborn-Captain America and Heroes Reborn-The Avengers. He was somehow able to get the rights to the character from the Kirby Estate and Joe Simon and just used a bunch of his rejected Heroes Reborn-Captain America crap but instead of honoring either character he dishonored both of them neverminding the Fighting American NEVER used a shield and while he started out as a serious character he eventually became a satire of characters like Captain America and normally I almost never side with companies but I wish Marvel had sued Liefeld over what was a clear case of pagerism and trademark and copyright infringement. As much as I love Jim Starlin even he couldn't have salvaged the mess that Liefeld made of The Fighting American a character who was 50 years ahead of his time. The fact that for all the talent that Rob Liefeld discovered most have left mainstream comics, like Stephen Platt and Dan Fraga (whatever happened to them) or proved to be just as big crooks like Pat Lee. The rest have moved on and are better off staying away from him.

Even though I really don't like his artwork now, I consider myself a fan since he's responsible for getting me into comics and has been involved in some of my favorite comic runs - Alan Moore's Supreme and Brandon Graham's Prophet.

As I said in the Supreme Returns thread here if it weren't for Alan Moore none of Liefeld's characters would not have any value, have been remembered and worth reviving.

lorddunlow · Post by **lorddunlow** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 1:30:09 pm

Oh yeah. Stephen Platt. I really liked him. What did happen to him?

kjjohanson · Post by **kjjohanson** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 1:50:16 pm

lorddunlow wrote:Oh yeah. Stephen Platt. I really liked him. What did happen to him?

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/01/20/ ... hen-platt/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

kjjohanson · Post by **kjjohanson** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 1:52:38 pm

kjjohanson wrote:
lorddunlow wrote:Oh yeah. Stephen Platt. I really liked him. What did happen to him?
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/01/20/ ... hen-platt/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Interesting that Liefeld would have the gall to refer to anyone as "Mr. Deadline"

lorddunlow · Post by **lorddunlow** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 2:03:37 pm

kjjohanson wrote:
lorddunlow wrote:Oh yeah. Stephen Platt. I really liked him. What did happen to him?
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/01/20/ ... hen-platt/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Look at me with my newfangled Google doohickey" - kjjohanson, board know-it-all <stated in annoying nasal voice>

The Dirt Gang · Post by **The Dirt Gang** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 2:17:08 pm

I had forgotten about the history of The Fighting American. I should have clarified that I wasn't referring to "talent" that Liefeld discovered. I'll admit I liked Platt at the time (not sure how I feel about him now). I just meant that Liefeld has been able to get people like Alan Moore, Chris Sprouse, Brandon Graham, Simon Roy, etc to work on his properties and turn these ripped off concepts into some of my favorite stories.

I stopped reading his Image work after the first wave and didn't stick around long. I only came back to his stuff once Alan Moore became involved and I really enjoyed all the Liefeld properties he worked on - Supreme, Judgement Day, Youngblood. I've been re-reading Supreme and until Sprouse came on the artwork was terrible (with the exception of Rick Vietch).

When I think of the Fighting American I more think of Jeph Loeb and Ed McGuiness' run. I remember enjoying them at the time even though I don't remember the stories now.

That being said. My real point in all this is that I really don't understand why he was so popular. He was huge at one time. He had a Levi's commercial!

I know when I was a kid I was in awe of his artwork and now I'm trying to wrap my head around why.

By the way, I've posted this before but does anyone else remember when Shooter was supposed to write Youngblood? I remember them advertising it and I was pretty stoked but it never came about. Actually, I just found an old thread about it - http://www.valiantfans.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=75379" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Dirt Gang · Post by **The Dirt Gang** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 2:22:30 pm

kjjohanson wrote:
lorddunlow wrote:Oh yeah. Stephen Platt. I really liked him. What did happen to him?
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/01/20/ ... hen-platt/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Liefeld can really come off like an *SQUEE* and who knew Extreme Studios employed writers before Moore came on board!?!

Phoenix8008 · Post by **Phoenix8008** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 3:08:52 pm

Don't feel too bad. You're not alone. I also can admit to liking Liefields work on New Mutants and then X-Force. It was cool and edgy and I liked the characters. I wasn't a technically minded reader. The story and other elements made up for the... lack of feet. For that matter, I didn't even notice the lack of feet until it was pointed out to me. Didn't have the internet back then to chat with people about my comics, so it was mostly pick up my stuff at the store and read it all by my lonesome.

It wasn't till years later (maybe even on these boards) that I came to learn about the technical deficiencies of Liefields art. Now, looking at it again induces a kind of double vision. I can see the coolness of it with the eyes of the past, overlaid with the eyes of age seeing the failures of the art itself. Very strange stuff.

dornwolf · Post by **dornwolf** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:36:54 am

Phoenix8008 wrote:Don't feel too bad. You're not alone. I also can admit to liking Liefields work on New Mutants and then X-Force. It was cool and edgy and I liked the characters. I wasn't a technically minded reader. The story and other elements made up for the... lack of feet. For that matter, I didn't even notice the lack of feet until it was pointed out to me. Didn't have the internet back then to chat with people about my comics, so it was mostly pick up my stuff at the store and read it all by my lonesome.

It wasn't till years later (maybe even on these boards) that I came to learn about the technical deficiencies of Liefields art. Now, looking at it again induces a kind of double vision. I can see the coolness of it with the eyes of the past, overlaid with the eyes of age seeing the failures of the art itself. Very strange stuff.

I can admit that too. When I first really started getting back into comicbooks I didn't mind the art and didn't notice the "oddities" then I started seeing the art and blog posts of his bizarre Captain America and really really bizarre poses.

Cyberstrike · Post by **Cyberstrike** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:07:50 am

The Dirt Gang wrote:
kjjohanson wrote:
lorddunlow wrote:Oh yeah. Stephen Platt. I really liked him. What did happen to him?
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/01/20/ ... hen-platt/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Liefeld can really come off like an *SQUEE* and who knew Extreme Studios employed writers before Moore came on board!?!

They did hire writers, the writers were just as awful as the artists.

Cyberstrike · Post by **Cyberstrike** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:26:19 am

The Dirt Gang wrote:I had forgotten about the history of The Fighting American. I should have clarified that I wasn't referring to "talent" that Liefeld discovered. I'll admit I liked Platt at the time (not sure how I feel about him now). I just meant that Liefeld has been able to get people like Alan Moore, Chris Sprouse, Brandon Graham, Simon Roy, etc to work on his properties and turn these ripped off concepts into some of my favorite stories.

I stopped reading his Image work after the first wave and didn't stick around long. I only came back to his stuff once Alan Moore became involved and I really enjoyed all the Liefeld properties he worked on - Supreme, Judgement Day, Youngblood. I've been re-reading Supreme and until Sprouse came on the artwork was terrible (with the exception of Rick Vietch).

When I think of the Fighting American I more think of Jeph Loeb and Ed McGuiness' run. I remember enjoying them at the time even though I don't remember the stories now.

That being said. My real point in all this is that I really don't understand why he was so popular. He was huge at one time. He had a Levi's commercial! I know when I was a kid I was in awe of his artwork and now I'm trying to wrap my head around why.

By the way, I've posted this before but does anyone else remember when Shooter was supposed to write Youngblood? I remember them advertising it and I was pretty stoked but it never came about. Actually, I just found an old thread about it - http://www.valiantfans.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=75379" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Image Founders were for lack of a better of a term, comic book versions of rock stars that appealed to a much younger audience than those before them while guys like Walt Simonson, John Byrne, George Perez, Peter David, Howard Chaykin, Jim Starlin, and even Frank Miller all their work felt old, safe, and secure; and it that was for your parents. The Image Founders they appealed to the rebellious teenagers (like me) that were reading comics in the 90s and cultivated a falling from them because they had that kind of attitude and public personas (this was true of Todd McFarlane and Erik Larsen in particular) of being the cool "bad boys" of comic creators and they knew it and used it to their advantage. Most were raw talent with IMHO Jim Valentino being the best of the founders in terms of writing and art back in 90s, but now I look at them and think it was a fad and that all of them their work hasn't aged well and most of their current work looks the same except for Jim Lee. IMHO Jim Lee's art today is much better than his work back then.

That is my 2 cents on it.

The Dirt Gang · Post by **The Dirt Gang** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:50:43 am

Cyberstrike wrote:
The Dirt Gang wrote:
kjjohanson wrote:
lorddunlow wrote:Oh yeah. Stephen Platt. I really liked him. What did happen to him?
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/01/20/ ... hen-platt/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Liefeld can really come off like an *SQUEE* and who knew Extreme Studios employed writers before Moore came on board!?!
They did hire writers, the writers were just as awful as the artists.

But how can they be called writers when they couldn't write.

chriskay99 · Post by **chriskay99** » Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:46:52 pm

Cyberstrike wrote:like Stephen Platt and Dan Fraga (whatever happened to them) or proved to be just as big crooks like Pat Lee. The rest have moved on and are better off staying away from him.

Dan works as a storyboard artist/director. http://www.danfraga.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also, I was looking up other random pencillers from the Extreme Studios days and remembered a guy named Chap Yaep. He's working in animation now, but I found this article from Entertainment Weekly back in 1994.

From the article wrote:Yaep's flashy art could earn him six figures his first year, but money is far from his sole motivation. ''One of these days,'' he says, ''I'll create my own books and characters and keep having fun with them. That's why I got into comics in the first place.''

So what's next? ''I want to take some life-drawing classes,'' he muses. ''Anybody who's serious about this needs some professional art training.''

That's how it worked in 1994, kids. Get hired by Rob Liefeld, then learn how to draw.

lorddunlow · Post by **lorddunlow** » Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:43:22 am

chriskay99 wrote:
Cyberstrike wrote:like Stephen Platt and Dan Fraga (whatever happened to them) or proved to be just as big crooks like Pat Lee. The rest have moved on and are better off staying away from him.
Dan works as a storyboard artist/director. http://www.danfraga.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also, I was looking up other random pencillers from the Extreme Studios days and remembered a guy named Chap Yaep. He's working in animation now, but I found this article from Entertainment Weekly back in 1994.

From the article wrote:Yaep's flashy art could earn him six figures his first year, but money is far from his sole motivation. ''One of these days,'' he says, ''I'll create my own books and characters and keep having fun with them. That's why I got into comics in the first place.''

So what's next? ''I want to take some life-drawing classes,'' he muses. ''Anybody who's serious about this needs some professional art training.''
That's how it worked in 1994, kids. Get hired by Rob Liefeld, then learn how to draw.

and

The Dirt Gang · Post by **The Dirt Gang** » Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:56:54 am

chriskay99 wrote:
That's how it worked in 1994, kids. Get hired by Rob Liefeld, then learn how to draw.

That is awesome! It's amazing that these guys were getting right ups and making that much money.

StarBrand · Post by **StarBrand** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 11:31:41 pm

Deadpool. Cable. Historic characters.

leonmallett · Post by **leonmallett** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:19:20 pm

StarBrand wrote:Deadpool. Cable. Historic characters.

They are that. Pretty much undeniable I think. And hard to see who post-1975 has had the same impact in the Marvel Universe.

lorddunlow · Post by **lorddunlow** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:31:25 pm

leonmallett wrote:
StarBrand wrote:Deadpool. Cable. Historic characters.
They are that. Pretty much undeniable I think. And hard to see who post-1975 has had the same impact in the Marvel Universe.

As I have pointed out, Liefeld's strength is in character design. Someone should push him to do nothing but design cool characters for all the publishers.

greg · Post by **greg** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:51:30 pm

leonmallett wrote:
StarBrand wrote:Deadpool. Cable. Historic characters.
They are that. Pretty much undeniable I think. And hard to see who post-1975 has had the same impact in the Marvel Universe.

Rogue > Cable ?

Cyberstrike · Post by **Cyberstrike** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 5:34:46 pm

StarBrand wrote:Deadpool. Cable. Historic characters.

Deadpool yes I grant you that one.
Cable. On the other hand, not really. Cable is an OK character, he's better as as a second or third string team leader or as a supporting character, but he's not a great solo character and he's been never been much more than a cult-classic character and Greg is right Rouge > Cable.

Cyberstrike · Post by **Cyberstrike** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 5:37:27 pm

leonmallett wrote:
StarBrand wrote:Deadpool. Cable. Historic characters.
They are that. Pretty much undeniable I think. And hard to see who post-1975 has had the same impact in the Marvel Universe.

The second Ghost Rider, Wolverine, The Punisher, Rouge, and Electra spring to mind.

comicsyte95 · Post by **comicsyte95** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:33:55 pm

dornwolf wrote:
Phoenix8008 wrote:Don't feel too bad. You're not alone. I also can admit to liking Liefields work on New Mutants and then X-Force. It was cool and edgy and I liked the characters. I wasn't a technically minded reader. The story and other elements made up for the... lack of feet. For that matter, I didn't even notice the lack of feet until it was pointed out to me. Didn't have the internet back then to chat with people about my comics, so it was mostly pick up my stuff at the store and read it all by my lonesome.

It wasn't till years later (maybe even on these boards) that I came to learn about the technical deficiencies of Liefields art. Now, looking at it again induces a kind of double vision. I can see the coolness of it with the eyes of the past, overlaid with the eyes of age seeing the failures of the art itself. Very strange stuff.
I can admit that too. When I first really started getting back into comicbooks I didn't mind the art and didn't notice the "oddities" then I started seeing the art and blog posts of his bizarre Captain America and really really bizarre poses.

+1

kjjohanson · Post by **kjjohanson** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:16:07 pm

Largely I liked his stuff until Image. And then I realized that there's not as whole lot of "there" there.

lorddunlow · Post by **lorddunlow** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:58:06 pm

Who the hell is "Rouge"?

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