The Valiant #4 Discussion

[greg]

Did we ever determine who told young Kay the Princess, White Knight, and Mr. Flay story?

They had knowledge of the future... but if they had knowledge of the future, they would know that she dies anyway.

I thought it was just a story she heard and 'Mr. Flay' just took that form because it was ingrained in her psyche.

Yes, Mr. Flay used her psyche, but the White Knight (Bloodshot) wasn't chosen by Mr. Flay.

[Phoenix8008]

Did we ever determine who told young Kay the Princess, White Knight, and Mr. Flay story?

They had knowledge of the future... but if they had knowledge of the future, they would know that she dies anyway.

I thought it was just a story she heard and 'Mr. Flay' just took that form because it was ingrained in her psyche.

Yes, Mr. Flay used her psyche, but the White Knight (Bloodshot) wasn't chosen by Mr. Flay.

No, he wasn't. I figured it was just a narrative coincidence that the story and the reality had a 'white knight' and 'fleeing through the woods', etc. I didn't see it as some future knowledge of what happened being turned into a story to tell her as a child. Unless we see some proof of that being presented somewhere down the line, I'd have to side with Ocham's Razor and assume that the easiest solution of coincidence is the right one.

[BugsySig]

Did we ever determine who told young Kay the Princess, White Knight, and Mr. Flay story?

They had knowledge of the future... but if they had knowledge of the future, they would know that she dies anyway.

I'm pretty sure she said her dad read it to her. Her family is obviously connected to the Geomancer legacy with Buck being a distant relative...so you never know.

I wouldn't say they had knowledge of the future, though. I think it was more so the IE picking throug Kay's memories to see what she feared most. Then he makes the connection between Bloodshot and the "white knight" saving her as a taunt. As we all now know, Kay's white knight doesn't save her.

[jmatt]

I'm pretty sure she said her dad read it to her.

Yup.

I wouldn't say they had knowledge of the future, though.

I may be mis-remembering, but I seem to recall a line wondering about him 'knowing the future'. Or something like that.

[BugsySig]

I'm pretty sure she said her dad read it to her.

Yup.

I wouldn't say they had knowledge of the future, though.

I may be mis-remembering, but I seem to recall a line wondering about him 'knowing the future'. Or something like that.

That is true, but I think that was Kay reflecting on the similarities to the story. But those similarities were only brought about by the IE reading her fears and taking the form of Flay. I think it was more of a literary device than an actual plot point.

[greg]

If the "childish drawings" panels of the Mr. Flay story were the actual illustrations in the book that Kay's father read to her, then it was drawn knowing the future.
The white knight had red eyes in the storybook panel, before Kay runs into Bloodshot.
Mr. Flay had branch-like extending fingers in the storybook panel, which the Immortal Enemy had the first time he ever attacked Gilad in the ancient civilization.

If Kay is remembering actual pages from the storybook, then whoever drew it knew the future.

[geocarr]

And the plot thickens! [Cue suspenseful but slightly creepy music]

[jeremycoe]

If the "childish drawings" panels of the Mr. Flay story were the actual illustrations in the book that Kay's father read to her, then it was drawn knowing the future.
The white knight had red eyes in the storybook panel, before Kay runs into Bloodshot.
Mr. Flay had branch-like extending fingers in the storybook panel, which the Immortal Enemy had the first time he ever attacked Gilad in the ancient civilization.

If Kay is remembering actual pages from the storybook, then whoever drew it knew the future.

Maybe it was the Book of Death.

[Phoenix8008]

If the "childish drawings" panels of the Mr. Flay story were the actual illustrations in the book that Kay's father read to her, then it was drawn knowing the future.
The white knight had red eyes in the storybook panel, before Kay runs into Bloodshot.
Mr. Flay had branch-like extending fingers in the storybook panel, which the Immortal Enemy had the first time he ever attacked Gilad in the ancient civilization.

If Kay is remembering actual pages from the storybook, then whoever drew it knew the future.

Maybe it was the Book of Death.

Which would be appropriate in Kay's case!

(Too soon?? )

[BugsySig]

If the "childish drawings" panels of the Mr. Flay story were the actual illustrations in the book that Kay's father read to her, then it was drawn knowing the future.
The white knight had red eyes in the storybook panel, before Kay runs into Bloodshot.
Mr. Flay had branch-like extending fingers in the storybook panel, which the Immortal Enemy had the first time he ever attacked Gilad in the ancient civilization.

If Kay is remembering actual pages from the storybook, then whoever drew it knew the future.

Or were the present events effecting her memories

[greg]

If the "childish drawings" panels of the Mr. Flay story were the actual illustrations in the book that Kay's father read to her, then it was drawn knowing the future.
The white knight had red eyes in the storybook panel, before Kay runs into Bloodshot.
Mr. Flay had branch-like extending fingers in the storybook panel, which the Immortal Enemy had the first time he ever attacked Gilad in the ancient civilization.

If Kay is remembering actual pages from the storybook, then whoever drew it knew the future.

Or were the present events effecting her memories

How did she "remember" the white knight had red eyes before she bumped into Bloodshot?

[BugsySig]

If the "childish drawings" panels of the Mr. Flay story were the actual illustrations in the book that Kay's father read to her, then it was drawn knowing the future.
The white knight had red eyes in the storybook panel, before Kay runs into Bloodshot.
Mr. Flay had branch-like extending fingers in the storybook panel, which the Immortal Enemy had the first time he ever attacked Gilad in the ancient civilization.

If Kay is remembering actual pages from the storybook, then whoever drew it knew the future.

Or were the present events effecting her memories

How did she "remember" the white knight had red eyes before she bumped into Bloodshot?

Maybe he was an albino [WINKING FACE]

[greg]

If the "childish drawings" panels of the Mr. Flay story were the actual illustrations in the book that Kay's father read to her, then it was drawn knowing the future.
The white knight had red eyes in the storybook panel, before Kay runs into Bloodshot.
Mr. Flay had branch-like extending fingers in the storybook panel, which the Immortal Enemy had the first time he ever attacked Gilad in the ancient civilization.

If Kay is remembering actual pages from the storybook, then whoever drew it knew the future.

Or were the present events effecting her memories

How did she "remember" the white knight had red eyes before she bumped into Bloodshot?

Maybe he was an albino [WINKING FACE]

[SHRUGGING SHOULDERS - NODDING HALF-SMILE]

[BugsySig]

If the "childish drawings" panels of the Mr. Flay story were the actual illustrations in the book that Kay's father read to her, then it was drawn knowing the future.
The white knight had red eyes in the storybook panel, before Kay runs into Bloodshot.
Mr. Flay had branch-like extending fingers in the storybook panel, which the Immortal Enemy had the first time he ever attacked Gilad in the ancient civilization.

If Kay is remembering actual pages from the storybook, then whoever drew it knew the future.

Or were the present events effecting her memories

How did she "remember" the white knight had red eyes before she bumped into Bloodshot?

Maybe he was an albino [WINKING FACE]

[SHRUGGING SHOULDERS - NODDING HALF-SMILE]

Haha. Apparently that's what Tapatalk does when you use an emoji [GRINNING FACE WITH SMILING EYES]

[Tony_H]

• The fridging of Kay. This makes three female characters (along with Pulse and Flamingo) in VEI so far that have been sacrificed to further the story of a male character.

Don't forget Bloodshot #25, too. As much as I like VEI, if they keep up this "kill the girl" pattern, I'm done with them. Its a crass, homoerotic, misogynistic way to sell books to teenage boys (i.e., keeping the treehouse girl-free) that was routinely used by the Big 2 for 20 years after Marvel knocked off Gwen, and was old hat before the appearance of the first Valiant incarnation.

[Keith]

• The fridging of Kay. This makes three female characters (along with Pulse and Flamingo) in VEI so far that have been sacrificed to further the story of a male character.

Don't forget Bloodshot #25, too. As much as I like VEI, if they keep up this "kill the girl" pattern, I'm done with them. Its a crass, homoerotic, misogynistic way to sell books to teenage boys (i.e., keeping the treehouse girl-free) that was routinely used by the Big 2 for 20 years after Marvel knocked off Gwen, and was old hat before the appearance of the first Valiant incarnation.

Just to clarify... you're accusing VEI of being crass? Please explain.

Homoerotic? Please explain.

And misogynistic? Please explain.

[Tony_H]

Sure! The serial killing off of women to ensure a pure fraternal society is, simultaneously, a homoerotic* and misogynistic undertaking. When the serial killing off of fictional female characters is done to boost sales of products, it's a crass undertaking.

As I pointed out above, I like most of what VEI does (e.g., I have every regular issue they've ever published and a lot of variants), but I don't like the emerging pattern of editorial decisions concerning the sacrificial fates of their female characters.

(* = erotically-excited acts of male bonding)

[BugsySig]

Sure! The serial killing off of women to ensure a pure fraternal society is, simultaneously, a homoerotic* and misogynistic undertaking. When the serial killing off of fictional female characters is done to boost sales of products, it's a crass undertaking.

As I pointed out above, I like most of what VEI does (e.g., I have every regular issue they've ever published and a lot of variants), but I don't like the emerging pattern of editorial decisions concerning the sacrificial fates of their female characters.

(* = erotically-excited acts of male bonding)

So how would you analyze the "serial killing" of almost a dozen male characters in VEI thus far?

[Elveen]

There are parts of this thread that are almost unbelievable.

I'm glad we live in a country where free speech is part of the fabric of our culture, but wow.
Some of the opinions and claims are just wow.

[BugsySig]

There are parts of this thread that are almost unbelievable.

I'm glad we live in a country where free speech is part of the fabric of our culture, but wow.
Some of the opinions and claims are just wow.

If you are referring to my comment on "albinos," I would like to sincerely apologize

[blujay]

Are we really throwing around claims of homo-eroticism and misogyny now?

I think that's a bit much. So you didn't like the ending of this mini, understandable, but the former is starting to bleed into the emotion-based fervor that encapsulates modern American Politics.

[greg]

Sure! The serial killing off of women to ensure a pure fraternal society is, simultaneously, a homoerotic* and misogynistic undertaking. When the serial killing off of fictional female characters is done to boost sales of products, it's a crass undertaking.

As I pointed out above, I like most of what VEI does (e.g., I have every regular issue they've ever published and a lot of variants), but I don't like the emerging pattern of editorial decisions concerning the sacrificial fates of their female characters.

(* = erotically-excited acts of male bonding)

Wertham... is that you?

If you tell me you were born on November 18, 1981, I'm going to freaking freak the freak out.

[Tony_H]

Sure! The serial killing off of women to ensure a pure fraternal society is, simultaneously, a homoerotic* and misogynistic undertaking. When the serial killing off of fictional female characters is done to boost sales of products, it's a crass undertaking.

As I pointed out above, I like most of what VEI does (e.g., I have every regular issue they've ever published and a lot of variants), but I don't like the emerging pattern of editorial decisions concerning the sacrificial fates of their female characters.

(* = erotically-excited acts of male bonding)

Wertham... is that you?

If you tell me you were born on November 18, 1981, I'm going to freaking freak the freak out.

November, yes; 1981, no. That unhappy comparison crossed my mind even as I was typing the post, but like Justice Scalia has pointed out before--even a stopped clock is right twice a day!

FWIW, considering the entire series on its own merits, I thought many aspects of The Valiant were artistically excellent, including the ending, which reduced grand-scale events down to an intimate scope where two human beings struggled against their inevitable fate and death. It's the multi-title pattern that the series' end fit into that bothers me.

[hunter_peterson]

• The fridging of Kay. This makes three female characters (along with Pulse and Flamingo) in VEI so far that have been sacrificed to further the story of a male character.

Don't forget Bloodshot #25, too. As much as I like VEI, if they keep up this "kill the girl" pattern, I'm done with them. Its a crass, homoerotic, misogynistic way to sell books to teenage boys (i.e., keeping the treehouse girl-free) that was routinely used by the Big 2 for 20 years after Marvel knocked off Gwen, and was old hat before the appearance of the first Valiant incarnation.

Big homo here. Can confirm that dead chicks are not homoerotic.

But yeah, it's often just lazy storytelling. Not that it doesn't apply equally to make characters... killing off characters instead of developing them as their own thing is simply lazy in every case. The whole "women in refrigerators" thing is only a gendered trend because the leads are commonly male and therefore the romantic interest is usually female.

But like I said up-thread; the majority of the most prominent VEI deaths have all been women, because they HAVE been developed well as characters. But many, many more male characters have been killed off to similar effect, with only Joe from Harbinger having a similar level of impact. That suggests to me that the deaths are story driven, not gender driven.

[hunter_peterson]

Sure! The serial killing off of women to ensure a pure fraternal society is, simultaneously, a homoerotic* and misogynistic undertaking. When the serial killing off of fictional female characters is done to boost sales of products, it's a crass undertaking.

As I pointed out above, I like most of what VEI does (e.g., I have every regular issue they've ever published and a lot of variants), but I don't like the emerging pattern of editorial decisions concerning the sacrificial fates of their female characters.

(* = erotically-excited acts of male bonding)

Wertham... is that you?

If you tell me you were born on November 18, 1981, I'm going to freaking freak the freak out.

November, yes; 1981, no. That unhappy comparison crossed my mind even as I was typing the post, but like Justice Scalia has pointed out before--even a stopped clock is right twice a day!

FWIW, considering the entire series on its own merits, I thought many aspects of The Valiant were artistically excellent, including the ending, which reduced grand-scale events down to an intimate scope where two human beings struggled against their inevitable fate and death. It's the multi-title pattern that the series' end fit into that bothers me.

Like Bugsy and I said: the pattern is not women-in-refrigerators. Many, many more male characters have been killed off, often for shock value. The pattern you're suggesting simply doesn't exist. Let's look at the deaths of women in VEI:

Flamingo. Formerly the most prominent. Was developed beautifully as her own character, was never in a romantic relationship with any of her teammates, was killed off in an equal-opportunity way by Dysart. He didn't know who was going to die before he killed her, initially going with Torque. Then the fallout of her death affected the whole team, mostly female, equally. Definitely not a fridging.

Pulse. A supporting character for Bloodshot, killed off when he acquired over a dozen new supporting characters who also had superpowers. He cared for all of a panel. No development really came from it, so I'd just class that as a standard minor character death. I think the other female character actually was developed more by that death. Not a fridging.

Geomancer. Developed as an integral and important part of the VEI universe, left on he wayside as different writers struggled with defining the role she filled, brought back for an event story focused on her and then killed off after getting to know Bloodshot a little, fighting her own battles and saving her "white knight" from his separation from humanity. I'd say she was a strong character until the end, and that she didn't exist merely to develop other characters. And her consciousness may still survive, so she may not even be really dead! Not only that, but she was instantly replaced with a new Geomancer who was not only female, but not white AND of even greater importance to the Valiant Universe! Again, not a refrigerator in sight.

Seriously... it just isn't there. No misogyny. And, sadly, not even the hint of hot man-on-man action that you say.