A new Valiant could still use Phil Seleski, if not Solar...

[ManofTheAtom]

And who knew Lois slept with the whole Justice League before she married Supes

That's one of the most amazing things about Smallville, lol.

Wonder what they'll do if Wonder Woman ever guest stars... lol

[slym2none]

So you want VH 5, you don't want to read Solar comics, and you want to read bland stories where nothing bad happens to the characters.

Mike, you HAVE to stop putting words in people's mouths. I read cjv's comments and I don't see him saying what you just said at all. IIRC, you have had a recent problem concerning you doing just this thing... and I would hate to see you suspended again for the same reason.

Please...



-slym

[slym2none]

Bring in Joe Q and launch "THE ULTIMATE VALIANT". Who says Phil can't be a 16 year old skater dude punk rocker from queens? And Shadowman could be a reggae star from Jamaica smoking some righteous chronic and causing mayhem.... And Archer can be an old lech (like 100 year old Ultimate Wolverine scoping out a high school age Jean Gray). Hey it worked for Marvel (and Smallville for that matter - old Lex (and the teacher/coach) bedding slutty 17 year old Lana)..... And who knew Lois slept with the whole Justice League before she married Supes - Damn - I digressed - Sorry I long for the good old Pre-Unity days......

THAT... was not even funny.

( )



-slym (has an intense dis-like for Marvel's "Ultimate" line)

[slym2none]

And who knew Lois slept with the whole Justice League before she married Supes

That's one of the most amazing things about Smallville, lol.

Wonder what they'll do if Wonder Woman ever guest stars... lol

If Mike Deodato draws the comic-version of it, I'm in!





-slym

[ManofTheAtom]

So you want VH 5, you don't want to read Solar comics, and you want to read bland stories where nothing bad happens to the characters.

Mike, you HAVE to stop putting words in people's mouths. I read cjv's comments and I don't see him saying what you just said at all. IIRC, you have had a recent problem concerning you doing just this thing... and I would hate to see you suspended again for the same reason.

Please...



-slym

He's made it clear that he doesn't want the old continuity, that he doesn't care if Phil changes his super hero name, and that he's not interested in having any repercusions based on that decision.

[mavros]

Phil didn't wish to become Solar after the accident, he wished to become Solar ever since he was a kid and read the comics, that's what lead him to build the reactor in the first place. He was emulating Raymond Solar in the hope of becoming just like him.

What you're trying to say is this:

As there are no direct mentions of Doctor Solar, Gold Key, or anything else related to the original comic in Alpha & Omega, any follow up to that origin can reveal that Phil was inspired by a completely different comic.

You are right, this could be done. Personally I still wouldn't care as I want to read Solar comics, not Phil Seleski redux.

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying there is no connection to him maintaining his powers and him wishing to be Solar (as cjv correctly pointed out, thank you).

Once the accident happened, he had his powers and there was no going back, wishing or not wishing. He became an energy being capable of manipulating energy in all of it's forms and there is no way he can be regular Phil Seleski again.

I'm not debating the fact that he read Dr. Solar and other comics in his youth, and that he was inspired by them. He did do that and he was inspired by them.

I'm debating that his powers are tied to him WANTING to be Solar AND that if he stops being Solar he LOSES those powers. There's little to support that in the origin story. It might make an interesting fan-fic story. It may be a worthwhile Solar story if VE decided to do a story arc like that (but that really depends on how they execute it... I'd rather they didn't but if they did I would give it a chance)... but that would be a huge retcon of the origin story published by Valiant.

It would also leave a gaping hole in the origin story. How do you explain the fact that once Solar emerges from Seleski's head, Seleski STILL has the powers of Solar? Wouldn't the Solar from Seleski's memories have also taken the power with him if we establish the premise that Phil's powers are INSEPERABLE from his wanting to be Solar?

[ManofTheAtom]

Phil didn't wish to become Solar after the accident, he wished to become Solar ever since he was a kid and read the comics, that's what lead him to build the reactor in the first place. He was emulating Raymond Solar in the hope of becoming just like him.

What you're trying to say is this:

As there are no direct mentions of Doctor Solar, Gold Key, or anything else related to the original comic in Alpha & Omega, any follow up to that origin can reveal that Phil was inspired by a completely different comic.

You are right, this could be done. Personally I still wouldn't care as I want to read Solar comics, not Phil Seleski redux.

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying there is no connection to him maintaining his powers and him wishing to be Solar (as cjv correctly pointed out, thank you).

Once the accident happened, he had his powers and there was no going back, wishing or not wishing. He became an energy being capable of manipulating energy in all of it's forms and there is no way he can be regular Phil Seleski again.

I'm not debating the fact that he read Dr. Solar and other comics in his youth, and that he was inspired by them. He did do that and he was inspired by them.

I'm debating that his powers are tied to him WANTING to be Solar AND that if he stops being Solar he LOSES those powers. There's little to support that in the origin story. It might make an interesting fan-fic story. It may be a worthwhile Solar story if VE decided to do a story arc like that (but that really depends on how they execute it... I'd rather they didn't but if they did I would give it a chance)... but that would be a huge retcon of the origin story published by VALIANT.

It would also leave a gaping hole in the origin story. How do you explain the fact that once Solar emerges from Seleski's head, Seleski STILL has the powers of Solar? Wouldn't the Solar from Seleski's memories have also taken the power with him if we establish the premise that Phil's powers are INSEPERABLE from his wanting to be Solar?

No, because Phil was no longer human at that point. What happened (and this was made clear in Second Death) was that Phil gave physical form to his guilt and his desire to be a hero. He turned the energy from those two into living matter in the form of Doctor Solar, a construct made up of his memories and knowledge from reading the comics (another fact made clear in the story).

The reason Phil became Solar was because he wished to be, not because the machine was designed to bestow powers on mortal people, that kind of science doesn't exist in the real world.

When Adam West throws himself in nuclear waste he gets cancer, not super powers.

If a gamma bomb explods infront of you you die, you don't become the Hulk.

That's the real world aspect of the VALIANT Universe.

It was something, something completely unrelated to the machine, that gave Phil his powers, something that separated him from the real world. It was his subconcious desire to become like his comic book hero that tipped the balance in his favor.

This is made very clear in the comic more than once, and I've already quoted the dialogue on this board more than once.

Doctor Solar told Tammy that Phil's transformation was a result of force of will, while later Phil (the combined energy-based lifeform of A&O Phil and Doctor Solar) told the other Phil that what happened to them was the result of his wishing it to happen, just like the reason the nuclear explosion stopped was because he wished it to stop.

Once Phil moves away from the thing he desired most in the world his entire life there must be repercusions.

[mavros]

Phil didn't wish to become Solar after the accident, he wished to become Solar ever since he was a kid and read the comics, that's what lead him to build the reactor in the first place. He was emulating Raymond Solar in the hope of becoming just like him.

What you're trying to say is this:

As there are no direct mentions of Doctor Solar, Gold Key, or anything else related to the original comic in Alpha & Omega, any follow up to that origin can reveal that Phil was inspired by a completely different comic.

You are right, this could be done. Personally I still wouldn't care as I want to read Solar comics, not Phil Seleski redux.

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying there is no connection to him maintaining his powers and him wishing to be Solar (as cjv correctly pointed out, thank you).

Once the accident happened, he had his powers and there was no going back, wishing or not wishing. He became an energy being capable of manipulating energy in all of it's forms and there is no way he can be regular Phil Seleski again.

I'm not debating the fact that he read Dr. Solar and other comics in his youth, and that he was inspired by them. He did do that and he was inspired by them.

I'm debating that his powers are tied to him WANTING to be Solar AND that if he stops being Solar he LOSES those powers. There's little to support that in the origin story. It might make an interesting fan-fic story. It may be a worthwhile Solar story if VE decided to do a story arc like that (but that really depends on how they execute it... I'd rather they didn't but if they did I would give it a chance)... but that would be a huge retcon of the origin story published by VALIANT.

It would also leave a gaping hole in the origin story. How do you explain the fact that once Solar emerges from Seleski's head, Seleski STILL has the powers of Solar? Wouldn't the Solar from Seleski's memories have also taken the power with him if we establish the premise that Phil's powers are INSEPERABLE from his wanting to be Solar?

No, because Phil was no longer human at that point. What happened (and this was made clear in Second Death) was that Phil gave physical form to his guilt and his desire to be a hero. He turned the energy from those two into living matter in the form of Doctor Solar, a construct made up of his memories and knowledge from reading the comics (another fact made clear in the story).

The reason Phil became Solar was because he wished to be, not because the machine was designed to bestow powers on mortal people, that kind of science doesn't exist in the real world.

When Adam West throws himself in nuclear waste he gets cancer, not super powers.

If a gamma bomb explods infront of you you die, you don't become the Hulk.

That's the real world aspect of the VALIANT Universe.

It was something, something completely unrelated to the machine, that gave Phil his powers, something that separated him from the real world. It was his subconcious desire to become like his comic book hero that tipped the balance in his favor.

This is made very clear in the comic more than once, and I've already quoted the dialogue on this board more than once.

Doctor Solar told Tammy that Phil's transformation was a result of force of will, while later Phil (the combined energy-based lifeform of A&O Phil and Doctor Solar) told the other Phil that what happened to them was the result of his wishing it to happen, just like the reason the nuclear explosion stopped was because he wished it to stop.

Once Phil moves away from the thing he desired most in the world his entire life there must be repercusions.

I'm not saying that there wouldn't be reprecussions, but losing his powers wouldn't be one of them.

He doesn't have that option except for dispersing his energy far enough apart that he can't pull himself together again.

It's also made very clear in the story that a facet of Seleski (Max Blackwell) can exist and still maintain his powers without the Solar facet.

[ManofTheAtom]

I'm not saying that there wouldn't be reprecussions, but losing his powers wouldn't be one of them.

He doesn't have that option except for dispersing his energy far enough apart that he can't pull himself together again.

It's also made very clear in the story that a facet of Seleski (Max Blackwell) can exist and still maintain his powers without the Solar facet.

There was no Max Blackwell facet, that was just a made up name that Phil from the alternate future used to talk to people who knew him.

Doctor Solar was a physical manifestation of guilt and a child's desire to be a hero, while Phil was the real person.

Doctor Solar mention that his memories were a mess of both Phil's and his life in Atom Valley. Those supposed memories of his life in Atom Valley were made up of Phil's knowledge from reading the comics.

It's like the movie Vanilla Sky, where Cruise's character was the real guy and everyone else just thought they were real, like Rusell's character who was convinced he had two daughters but when it came time to say their names he couldn't remember them.

Doctor Solar's memories were limited to what Phil knew from reading the comic, had anyone asked him a question for which Phil didn't know the answer to then it's doubtful he could have answered it, while Phil (aka Blackwell) was a real person who had experienced a real life in a timeline he destroyed.

As for Solar loosing his powers, we don't know what caused him to get them in the first place. Nuclear explosions don't give people super powers.

It was his subconcious that caused the explosion in the first place, so the question is what would happen if his concious mind decided to walk away from the powers and the Solar ID?

What you're talking about is his conciously deciding to get rid of the powers. What I'm talking about is what would happen if his concious mind and his subconcious went to war with one another?

[mavros]

I'm not saying that there wouldn't be reprecussions, but losing his powers wouldn't be one of them.

He doesn't have that option except for dispersing his energy far enough apart that he can't pull himself together again.

It's also made very clear in the story that a facet of Seleski (Max Blackwell) can exist and still maintain his powers without the Solar facet.

There was no Max Blackwell facet, that was just a made up name that Phil from the alternate future used to talk to people who knew him.

Doctor Solar was a physical manifestation of guilt and a child's desire to be a hero, while Phil was the real person.

Doctor Solar mention that his memories were a mess of both Phil's and his life in Atom Valley. Those supposed memories of his life in Atom Valley were made up of Phil's knowledge from reading the comics.

It's like the movie Vanilla Sky, where Cruise's character was the real guy and everyone else just thought they were real, like Rusell's character who was convinced he had two daughters but when it came time to say their names he couldn't remember them.

Doctor Solar's memories were limited to what Phil knew from reading the comic, had anyone asked him a question for which Phil didn't know the answer to then it's doubtful he could have answered it, while Phil (aka Blackwell) was a real person who had experienced a real life in a timeline he destroyed.

As for Solar loosing his powers, we don't know what caused him to get them in the first place. Nuclear explosions don't give people super powers.

It was his subconcious that caused the explosion in the first place, so the question is what would happen if his concious mind decided to walk away from the powers and the Solar ID?

What you're talking about is his conciously deciding to get rid of the powers. What I'm talking about is what would happen if his concious mind and his subconcious went to war with one another?

We saw that in issue #1-4.

[ManofTheAtom]

Not really.

In issues 1-4 we saw his light side and dark side go to war to see who'd win his soul.

[cjv]

So you want VH 5, you don't want to read Solar comics, and you want to read bland stories where nothing bad happens to the characters.

Mike, you HAVE to stop putting words in people's mouths. I read cjv's comments and I don't see him saying what you just said at all. IIRC, you have had a recent problem concerning you doing just this thing... and I would hate to see you suspended again for the same reason.

Please...



-slym

That's okay. I have given up trying to have a discussion. I just really want DC lite, with no continuity, where bad things can happen with no effect, etc etc.

Chris

[cjv]

Phil didn't wish to become Solar after the accident, he wished to become Solar ever since he was a kid and read the comics, that's what lead him to build the reactor in the first place. He was emulating Raymond Solar in the hope of becoming just like him.

What you're trying to say is this:

As there are no direct mentions of Doctor Solar, Gold Key, or anything else related to the original comic in Alpha & Omega, any follow up to that origin can reveal that Phil was inspired by a completely different comic.

You are right, this could be done. Personally I still wouldn't care as I want to read Solar comics, not Phil Seleski redux.

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying there is no connection to him maintaining his powers and him wishing to be Solar (as cjv correctly pointed out, thank you).

Correction, I said there didn't HAVE to be one. If there is one, that is a perfectly legit storyline. And personally, I think it would be very interesting to see what might happen in that scenario, even if the need for such a link is all in Phil's head (since, after all, he thinks he made a wish machine....who knows what else he thinks)

I will be happy to carry on a discussion if you like.

Chris

[ManofTheAtom]

Regardless of who you debate it with, keep in mind that it was Phil's subconcious mind that caused the accident, not the concious one.

[bamaphilosopher]

Actually, a "reboot" is a different idea from starting with Unity 1...those are two different ideas I've had...I said they'd have to choose. And in fact I backed away from the idea of starting with Unity 1, thinking that if they don't have Magnus, Solar, and Turok, it'd be pointless.

Shooter stated in an interview he'd probably begin with Unity 1 and go from there. After all, that was when his vision was stolen from him. Now, he might change his creative mind, I don't know, but if that's what he wanted to do, I'd be more than happy to lay post-Unity continuity aside to have him back. But who knows what direction he'll take? He has a lot of options, if he ever does come back.

However, it is a brand new company, and they will probably start from scratch rather than embracing continuity from over 10 years ago that's from a different company. That's my guess.

I agree with the points cjv made (I think) about how they'll be out to make money off these characters, and if they can't get the rights to Solar, they will have Phil Seleski, and dollars to donuts, I think it'd be smart to use him rather than keep him in limbo. That's what my original idea proposes to do.

And I agree that the much-beloved Alpha and Omega makes very little, if any, reference to Solar. Phil Seleski can be a new character in his own right. I'm just saying a new company would have that luxury. If they get the rights to Solar back, fine, then this discussion is moot. But if they don't, they still have the option of using Phil Seleski.

I think Alpha and Omega was powerful, and they'd be wise to embrace it and use it, and I think it would be great to introduce that storyline to a new generation of readers.

But it's like someone else said, they have a lot of options, and not everyone is going to agree with what they do.

I hated it when Clay McHenry became the new Geomancer, because it was not what I would have done with that title; I would have kept Geoff. But looking back on the stories now, they're really good and they did a good job.

Not all of us is going to get what we want, if we're passionate about the characters. My only fear for MOTA is that he's so invested in his particular way that he's bound to be disappointed, no matter what they do.

As long as they tell great stories, I'll be fine with it. I've come up with a couple of creative ways they could go, and there are certainly others, too. If they wanted to just start ten years later, that'd be fine with me, I'd work with it, I just think it would be a headache for a new company to go that direction and if I had a vote, I'd vote against that.

But again, it's the quality of the stories that matter, not where they decide to start. It does seem reasonable to me, though, that for the sake of new readers, they do have to tell the origins, and give the readers a feel like they own the entire new universe.

I am a writer, and I hope I get a chance to be a part of it one day if the company ever does get off the ground. But I'm just another fan with dreams, like many of the rest of you here. And I'd certainly be flexible to the various directions they could go, though I would certainly always point to Shooter's style as the way the company should be. I love Valiant and I'm passionate about the characters, as I know all of you are too. It'd be a dream to get to work with them. I hope I can send them stuff and catch their attention if they ever go into business.

[ManofTheAtom]

I've been curious about one thing for about 10 years:

What does VH 1, a cable channel that airs music videos, have to do with VALIANT?

When I first read about it in Nicieza's introduction/rant and he said something like "we have VH 1, now we have VH 2" I thought he was doing some sort of pop culture allegorical comparison between the two different hero universes and a second "video hits" cable channel.

But seriously, Phil as anything other than Solar doesn't attract my interest, just like a Solar that's anyone other than Phil fails to capture my attention.

Phil Seleski's the modern age Solar, just like Raymond Solar was the Silver Age Doctor Solar.

[mavros]

Phil didn't wish to become Solar after the accident, he wished to become Solar ever since he was a kid and read the comics, that's what lead him to build the reactor in the first place. He was emulating Raymond Solar in the hope of becoming just like him.

What you're trying to say is this:

As there are no direct mentions of Doctor Solar, Gold Key, or anything else related to the original comic in Alpha & Omega, any follow up to that origin can reveal that Phil was inspired by a completely different comic.

You are right, this could be done. Personally I still wouldn't care as I want to read Solar comics, not Phil Seleski redux.

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying there is no connection to him maintaining his powers and him wishing to be Solar (as cjv correctly pointed out, thank you).

Correction, I said there didn't HAVE to be one. If there is one, that is a perfectly legit storyline. And personally, I think it would be very interesting to see what might happen in that scenario, even if the need for such a link is all in Phil's head (since, after all, he thinks he made a wish machine....who knows what else he thinks)

I will be happy to carry on a discussion if you like.

Chris

My apologies, sir.

Yeah, I think it is a possible storyline but for it to be a legitimate one for me, they would have to be able to explain why this occurred and reconcile it with the previous stories.

Don't see how that can be done though with what was already established (i.e., Seleski/Blackwell still having powers even after what was Solar parted from him...)... if the story could get past that logically then it would be interesting.

[bamaphilosopher]

Well, okay, but again I don't share that opinion. If they can't get the rights to Solar back, I'd be happy to see them use Phil Seleski. It's that or nothing without the rights to Solar. It's just not a guarantee they can get the rights back.

The only downside is they might get into a legal wrangle with the people who do own the rights to Solar. But I think the case would be cut-and-dried in their favor, since Phil Seleski was a new creation of Valiant. But I'm no legal expert.

[ManofTheAtom]

Well, okay, but again I don't share that opinion. If they can't get the rights to Solar back, I'd be happy to see them use Phil Seleski. It's that or nothing without the rights to Solar. It's just not a guarantee they can get the rights back.

Dude, if they don't get the rights to Solar, Magnus, and Turok then they can't touch most of their back stock material.

They couldn't touch Rai as the first four issue story (the flip book) was a crossover with Magnus.

They can't touch the fourth and fifth issues of Shadowman, or the first two issues of Archer & Armstrong and Eternal Warrior because they're part of Unity.

They couldn't touch anything related to Unity whatsoever as it contains all three characters.

It's in their best interest to go after those licenses as it directly affects what they can and can't do with the most popular and most difficult material to find in stores that they own.

[ManofTheAtom]

The only downside is they might get into a legal wrangle with the people who do own the rights to Solar. But I think the case would be cut-and-dried in their favor, since Phil Seleski was a new creation of VALIANT. But I'm no legal expert.

Check the copyright notice in Solar #7

[mavros]

Well, okay, but again I don't share that opinion. If they can't get the rights to Solar back, I'd be happy to see them use Phil Seleski. It's that or nothing without the rights to Solar. It's just not a guarantee they can get the rights back.

The only downside is they might get into a legal wrangle with the people who do own the rights to Solar. But I think the case would be cut-and-dried in their favor, since Phil Seleski was a new creation of VALIANT. But I'm no legal expert.

Well, it doesn't even matter if it's cut-and-dried. Look at what happened with Defiant and Marvel over Plasm/Plasmer/Warriors of Plasm. Even though Defiant was able get around it with the title of Warriors of Plasm, the costs crippled the company and led to the demise.

I think there would have to be a lot of negotiations with Western Publishing prior to establish use of even the Seleski character.

[ManofTheAtom]

Well, okay, but again I don't share that opinion. If they can't get the rights to Solar back, I'd be happy to see them use Phil Seleski. It's that or nothing without the rights to Solar. It's just not a guarantee they can get the rights back.

The only downside is they might get into a legal wrangle with the people who do own the rights to Solar. But I think the case would be cut-and-dried in their favor, since Phil Seleski was a new creation of VALIANT. But I'm no legal expert.

Well, it doesn't even matter if it's cut-and-dried. Look at what happened with Defiant and Marvel over Plasm/Plasmer/Warriors of Plasm. Even though Defiant was able get around it with the title of Warriors of Plasm, the costs crippled the company and led to the demise.

I think there would have to be a lot of negotiations with Western Publishing prior to establish use of even the Seleski character.

Random House actually.

Hmm... now that I think about it Random also owns Defiant AND Broadway.

Now that be cool!!! VE should licence all of those characters and integrate them into the VALIANT Universe.

Broadway's Fatale was originally supposed to be a VALIANT character. I'd love to see her over there.

[bamaphilosopher]

Now there we definitely agree, MOTA! I'd love to see a universe that integrated Warriors of Plasm, Fatale, Star Seed, and Knights on Broadway (those were my favorites) with Valiant.

If Random House does indeed own all those rights, I wish they'd buy up Valiant and do a super-universe, and coax Shooter back to the helm.

[ManofTheAtom]

Now there we definitely agree, MOTA! I'd love to see a universe that integrated Warriors of Plasm, Fatale, Star Seed, and Knights on Broadway (those were my favorites) with VALIANT.

If Random House does indeed own all those rights, I wish they'd buy up VALIANT and do a super-universe, and coax Shooter back to the helm.

Well, Random's owned those characters for well over a decade and haven't done anything with them so clearly they have no interest in making comic books.

The fact that they licensed Magnus to iBooks indicates to me that they might be interested in getting other people to spend their money in using their concepts and paying them for the right to do it.

VALIANT already has new owners, so let's hope they see the potential in bringing ALL of Shooter's worlds under one banner

Fatale and Harada together in the same universe. Think of the possibilities.

[bamaphilosopher]

And Sting and Starseed, and the little girl from Knights on Broadway with the Geomancer.

Yeah, but it's so cool I doubt it'll happen.