Origin of Harada - discussion

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:17 am

cjv wrote:Again with the taking things literally, huh.

Chris

It's called foreshadowing

Dr. Solar · Post by **Dr. Solar** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:36 am

cjv wrote:It was some early issue of Solar. Paraphrasing, Phil was talking about how super powered being exist, and he speculated that the destruction of the earth in the black hole and it's "recreation" allowed being like him to exist.

So is the notion that solar created the other super peoples conjecture by people on this board, or is there a basis for this in the comics?

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:39 am

Dr. Solar wrote:
cjv wrote:It was some early issue of Solar. Paraphrasing, Phil was talking about how super powered being exist, and he speculated that the destruction of the earth in the black hole and it's "recreation" allowed being like him to exist.
So is the notion that solar created the other super peoples conjecture by people on this board, or is there a basis for this in the comics?

There's basis for it in the comics, like the aforementioned example with the Geomancers, which didn't exist in the Alpha & Omega reality.

In the A&O reality Phil did destroy the universe, while in the VU the Earth was afraid of that happening and created Geomancers to defend herself.

In one reality the Earth was sentient, in the other she wasn't.

In the one she was, she created Geomancers to be her eyes and ears.

It could even be said that what Phil changed when he went back in time is that she gave the Earth sentience, and that the Earth created the heroes.

The Earth created Geomancers to be her eyes and ears, the Earth created immortals to protect the Geomancers, and the Earth created Harbingers to be her "antibodies".

Dr. Solar · Post by **Dr. Solar** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:46 am

I take it the answer to my actual question is, "no, there is no proof in the comics that Solar created the other super powered beings".

It seems that all we know is that Solar showed up in a version of the universe that contains super powered beings. It seems we don't know that Solar showing up in this universe was the catalyst for there being super powered beings or not though. Correct?

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:50 am

Dr. Solar wrote:I take it the answer to my actual question is, "no, there is no proof in the comics that Solar created the other super powered beings".

It seems that all we know is that Solar showed up in a version of the universe that contains super powered beings. It seems we don't know that Solar showing up in this universe was the catalyst for there being super powered beings or not though. Correct?

It's not a "version" of the universe, no.

Phil traveled back in time to a point before the Edgewater meltdown.

He was Sam Beckett in Quantum Leap, not Quinn Mallory in Sliders.

He didn't travel to a different reality, he traveled to his own past, days before the accident, to find that the world as he knew it had been changed.

This world was now inhabited by Geomancers, Necromancers, Spider-Aliens, Immortals, Nanite-enhanced soldiers, Harbingers, and others.

cjv · Post by **cjv** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:51 am

Dr. Solar wrote:
cjv wrote:It was some early issue of Solar. Paraphrasing, Phil was talking about how super powered being exist, and he speculated that the destruction of the earth in the black hole and it's "recreation" allowed being like him to exist.
So is the notion that solar created the other super peoples conjecture by people on this board, or is there a basis for this in the comics?

As I said, it was in some early issue of Solar...ie, the comics.

Chris

cjv · Post by **cjv** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:54 am

ManofTheAtom wrote:He didn't travel to a different reality, he traveled to his own past, days before the accident, to find that the world as he knew it had been changed.

WE can't know this for sure. It COULD be a different, albeit almost identical, reality. While Phil speculate that he destroyed, and recreated the universe, it is never stated as a fact, afaik. One explanation COULD be that he "side stepped" into a new reality, where things were mostly the same, but super powered beings DID exist. It's possible that in addition to travelling back in time, he travelled across realities as well.

Chris

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:55 am

cjv wrote:
ManofTheAtom wrote:He didn't travel to a different reality, he traveled to his own past, days before the accident, to find that the world as he knew it had been changed.
WE can't know this for sure. It COULD be a different, albeit almost identical, reality. While Phil speculate that he destroyed, and recreated the universe, it is never stated as a fact, afaik. One explanation COULD be that he "side stepped" into a new reality, where things were mostly the same, but super powered beings DID exist. It's possible that in addition to travelling back in time, he travelled across realities as well.

Chris

But there's nothing to support that other than an intro in the Second Death trade, and that doesn't count as that was just the perspective of the writer of the intro, not the writer of the story (i.e. Shooter).

Check the first three pages of Unity #0. What are the dates there?

Erica also traveled back in time in those, right?

Contrast the dates given in that issue to the dates given in Second Date (Solar #1), and the dates given in Solar #10 & #11.

Dr. Solar · Post by **Dr. Solar** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:02 pm

There was something on the inside of Solar 10, just found this:

Someone in Solar 10, possibly Jim Shooter, wrote:The cover of this issue is the symbolic bridge between the two stories -- the utter blackness experienced by Seleski as he destroys his own world and enters a new one.
Ours.

It just seems like Solar is NOT responsible for creating a world where super beings can exist, but he did find himself in one.

cjv · Post by **cjv** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:03 pm

ManofTheAtom wrote:
cjv wrote:
ManofTheAtom wrote:He didn't travel to a different reality, he traveled to his own past, days before the accident, to find that the world as he knew it had been changed.
WE can't know this for sure. It COULD be a different, albeit almost identical, reality. While Phil speculate that he destroyed, and recreated the universe, it is never stated as a fact, afaik. One explanation COULD be that he "side stepped" into a new reality, where things were mostly the same, but super powered beings DID exist. It's possible that in addition to travelling back in time, he travelled across realities as well.

Chris
But there's nothing to support that other than an intro in the Second Death trade, and that doesn't count as that was just the perspective of the writer of the intro, not the writer of the story (i.e. Shooter).

Check the first three pages of Unity #0. What are the dates there?

Erica also traveled back in time in those, right?

Contrast the dates given in that issue to the dates given in Second Date (Solar #1), and the dates given in Solar #10 & #11.

I am not saying that they didn't travel in time. I am just saying that's it's POSSIBLE that rather than destroy/recreate the universe, Solar simply travelled to an alternative reality, where super heroes do exist.

I don't like that explanation as much as the destroy/recreate, but it is one potential explanation. Given that the only "evidence" for the destroy/recreate explanation is the speculation of Phil himself, I don't know if we can discount any other possibilities.

Chris

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:05 pm

Dr. Solar wrote:There was something on the inside of Solar 10, just found this:
Someone in Solar 10, possibly Jim Shooter, wrote:The cover of this issue is the symbolic bridge between the two stories -- the utter blackness experienced by Seleski as he destroys his own world and enters a new one.
Ours.
It just seems like Solar is NOT responsible for creating a world where super beings can exist, but he did find himself in one.

There's no indication in the comics that Solar could travel between dimensions.

And the use of the term "new one (as in new world)" doesn't necessarily mean a different reality.

Like for example, Europe has been refered to as the "Old World" while America has been refered to as the "New World".

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:07 pm

cjv wrote:I am not saying that they didn't travel in time. I am just saying that's it's POSSIBLE that rather than destroy/recreate the universe, Solar simply travelled to an alternative reality, where super heroes do exist.

I don't like that explanation as much as the destroy/recreate, but it is one potential explanation. Given that the only "evidence" for the destroy/recreate explanation is the speculation of Phil himself, I don't know if we can discount any other possibilities.

Chris

But alternate realities weren't part of early VALIANT. They were focused more on linear time.

Erica's problem with Solar, for instance, was that he made TIME a mess, not reality.

Remember the tagline, "TIME IS NOT ABSOLUTE".

The whole focus of Shooter's VALIANT was on time, not realities.

For example, had he wanted to deal with alternate realities then the Lost Land would have been a hub between Solar's reality and Magnus', instead of a hub between their different eras.

Dr. Solar · Post by **Dr. Solar** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:09 pm

I have one simple question:

Is there any indication given in the comics that the existence of super powered beings in the VU is a result of either Seleski or the process of him arriving in the VU after the events in A&O?

The answer should look like one of the following:

"Yes, in issue ______."

or

"No."

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:10 pm

Dr. Solar wrote:I have one simple question:

Is there any indication given in the comics that the existence of super powered beings in the VU is a result of either Seleski or the process of him arriving in the VU after the events in A&O?

The answer should look like one of the following:

"Yes, in issue ______."

or

"No."

Yes, in Solar #10 when Geoff interrupts Phil and Gayle's dinner, which he didn't do in Alpha & Omega when they had the same dinner.

That proved that Geoff didn't exist before Phil destroyed the world.

Dr. Solar · Post by **Dr. Solar** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:14 pm

ManofTheAtom wrote:
Dr. Solar wrote:I have one simple question:

Is there any indication given in the comics that the existence of super powered beings in the VU is a result of either Seleski or the process of him arriving in the VU after the events in A&O?

The answer should look like one of the following:

"Yes, in issue ______."

or

"No."
Yes, in Solar #10 when Geoff interrupts Phil and Gayle's dinner, which he didn't do in Alpha & Omega when they had the same dinner.

That proved that Geoff didn't exist before Phil destroyed the world.

THis does NOT answer my question.

ALL this proves is that Geoff was in the universe that Phil found himself in after he destroyed the world.

It doesn't mean that he is there BECAUSE of Seleski. Do you see the difference?

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:17 pm

Dr. Solar wrote:THis does NOT answer my question.

ALL this proves is that Geoff was in the universe that Phil found himself in after he destroyed the world.

It doesn't mean that he is there BECAUSE of Seleski. Do you see the difference?

You're working off the assumption that there was more than one universe.

When Phil arrived in the past he didn't say "I'm in an alternate reality", he said "I'm in the past!".

If there is only ONE universe, then Geoff's existance proves that something changed after Phil destroyed the universe.

That's what Erica has a problem with, the existance of Harbingers, Geomancers, Nanite-enhanced soldiers, Necromancers, and Immortals... they're NOT supposed to exist, but they do because of what Phil did.

Let me put it another way.

What are the odds that Erica and Phil would arrive in the SAME alternate reality?

cjv · Post by **cjv** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:18 pm

ManofTheAtom wrote:
Dr. Solar wrote:I have one simple question:

Is there any indication given in the comics that the existence of super powered beings in the VU is a result of either Seleski or the process of him arriving in the VU after the events in A&O?

The answer should look like one of the following:

"Yes, in issue ______."

or

"No."

Are you asking for direct evidence in terms of character exposition, or evidence in terms of we see some in the VH-1 universe that we didn't see previously? If it is the latter, MOTA's example below is evidence, although it is not concrete.

MOTA wrote:Yes, in Solar #10 when Geoff interrupts Phil and Gayle's dinner, which he didn't do in Alpha & Omega when they had the same dinner.

That proved that Geoff didn't exist before Phil destroyed the world.

Tricky, you are bordering on a few assumptions.

First, maybe Geoff/Geomancers did exist, but the earth didn't care (or the geomancers didn't care) about Solar destroying the world for some reason.

Or they did exist, but simply weren't able to get to that specific location in time to talk to Solar.

I agree, the easiest assumption to make is that they didn't exist, but it is hardly ironclad proof.

And any direct mention of the possibilities is, as I stated, speculation by Phil, so we have to take it with a grain of salt.

In terms of your argument about time, I agree. I agree whole heartedly that it seems to be the most likely explanation, and the one that makes the most sense. But my point is that it isn't the ONLY explanation that can fit the evidence.

The alternate reality explanation is possible, even within everything we know about Valiant (ie, it doesn't have to mean that the lost land was a "hub" or something like that). That's all I am saying, that it is a possibility.

Heck, it's a possibility that it is all a dream by Phil as he is plunging to his death in a exploding nuclear reactor.

Chris

cjv · Post by **cjv** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:21 pm

ManofTheAtom wrote:You're working off the assumption that there was more than one universe.

When Phil arrived in the past he didn't say "I'm in an alternate reality", he said "I'm in the past!".

Perhaps because he didn't know?

If there is only ONE universe, then Geoff's existance proves that something changed after Phil destroyed the universe.

And by using "if", you are working on the assumption that there is only one reality.

What are the odds that Erica and Phil would arrive in the SAME alternate reality?

Pretty good, if there is only one alternate reality.

Or, if as you hypothesize, Phil create Erica subconsciously to be his "villain", then perhaps he also subconsciously guided her to where he was!

Chris

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:21 pm

cjv wrote:Tricky, you are bordering on a few assumptions.

First, maybe Geoff/Geomancers did exist, but the earth didn't care (or the geomancers didn't care) about Solar destroying the world for some reason.

Or they did exist, but simply weren't able to get to that specific location in time to talk to Solar.

I agree, the easiest assumption to make is that they didn't exist, but it is hardly ironclad proof.

And any direct mention of the possibilities is, as I stated, speculation by Phil, so we have to take it with a grain of salt.

In terms of your argument about time, I agree. I agree whole heartedly that it seems to be the most likely explanation, and the one that makes the most sense. But my point is that it isn't the ONLY explanation that can fit the evidence.

The alternate reality explanation is possible, even within everything we know about Valiant (ie, it doesn't have to mean that the lost land was a "hub" or something like that). That's all I am saying, that it is a possibility.

The multiverse theory postulates that there is an infinite number of alternate realities.

What are the odds of both Phil and Erica being sent to the same alternate reality?

Mathematically-speaking, the odds are greater of their being sent backwards in time within the same linear timeline than it is of them being sent to the same alternate reality.

Heck, it's a possibility that it is all a dream by Phil as he is plunging to his death in a exploding nuclear reactor.

Anti-matter reactor

greg · Post by **greg** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:25 pm

It could be argued that the first reality ceased to exist... because it was completely destroyed.

The second reality would be the "closest copy" of the first reality,
except that it would have new things like Geomancers, Harbingers, etc.
Both Phil and Gayle being "thrown into" the closest copy seems to make sense.

All other realities would be "copies of copies", and the amount of changes
would increase as you got further from the original... more exotic "mutations",
more exotic alien species, stranger scenarios when compared to the original.

Erica's desire to destroy all of reality was a desire to "let it all die" the way the first reality died.

cjv · Post by **cjv** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:26 pm

Trying to approach this without ANY assumptions, there are a number of possibilities

a) Alternate realities. Nothing to really support the idea, but then again, nothing to really refute it either.

b) One reality, time line alterred by Seleski. Speculated by Phil as the explanation, but no independant evidence to support it.

c) Some other explanation (dream, virtual reality, etc). Always possible, but unlikely, imo, because there are any number of possibilities which can't be disproven.

IF we include stuff from Acclaim as part of the truth, then the alternate reality scenario becomes more likely, simply because we DO see alternate realities exist.

If we don't include Acclaim (or Deathmate, or anything else) then IMO the alternate reality scenario becomes less likely, simply because Phil never mentions or explores alternate realities....ALTHOUGH he does explore...what was it called...unreality? An area outside of reality? Perhaps that could be the location through which Phil travels to other realities. And remember, the "unreality" does exist in Unity, so it was part of Shooter's idea for VH-1.

Chris

Dr. Solar · Post by **Dr. Solar** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:27 pm

OK, I hate to do this, but we are having a communication problem. I am trying to get the answer to something specific, and you answer with the answer to everything.

ManofTheAtom wrote:You're working off the assumption that there was more than one universe.

YOU are assuming that I am assuming that we're talking about different realities. I really don't give a *SQUEE* what we call it. A different reality, same reality but different, I really don't care. Wew're talking about the same thing.

ManofTheAtom wrote:When Phil arrived in the past he didn't say "I'm in an alternate reality", he said "I'm in the past!".

If there is only ONE universe, then Geoff's existance proves that something changed after Phil destroyed the universe.

We don't know that Geoff, as a geomancer, didn't exist before Solar destroyed the world. All we know is that they never met. That is purely conjecture. Not that it is WRONG, but it is an assumption. I agree witht he assumption, but do we agree that is what it is?

Plenty of things happened differently between the two versions, pre destruction and post destruction. Geoff coming into that restaurant could be one of them.

ManofTheAtom wrote:That's what Erica has a problem with, the existance of Harbingers, Geomancers, Nanite-enhanced soldiers, Necromancers, and Immortals... they're NOT supposed to exist, but they do because of what Phil did.

I don't remember this from the comics. Cite your source!

I thought she was upset about the messed up nature of time.

I thought she was upset because she was an insecure whacko that got on a delusional power trip.

Again, Is there proof IN THE COMICS that Solar created the VU, or just that he found himself in it, for whatever reason, whether it was time travel, dimension travel, or whatever?

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:29 pm

cjv wrote:Perhaps because he didn't know?

How could he not know?

Typically speaking, within fiction, there is always something in alternate realities that makes the new arrival aware that he's not in his own world, be it red meaning go and green meaning stop, Doors instead of Windows as a PC program, or Nixon still being President in 1985.

There is nothing liek those things in Second Death, there is no such indication that the world Phil arrived in was an alternate reality to his own... other than the existance of (if we focus solely on the first 11 issues of the series) Harbingers (Toyo in issue 3), Geomancers (Geoff in issue 10), and Immortals (Gilad also in issue 10).

In fiction, events in alternate realities rarely, if ever, follow similar paths. It's the opposite, events in fact divert.

Just look at Stargate SG-1, where realities are different by the most minor or mayor of changes.

From Daniel Jackson not joining the Stargate Program, to Kowalski not being taken over by a Goul'd, to Landry becoming President.

In Second Death, events were following the same path as in Alpha & Omega, something that would only happen if Phil had traveled back in time. Had he traveled to a different reality, then events would have gone off in a tangent.

And by using "if", you are working on the assumption that there is only one reality.

No, by using If I'm just not talking in absolutes. I don't believe for a second that there was an alternate reality in Second Death.

Pretty good, if there is only one alternate reality. Or, if as you hypothesize, Phil create Erica subconsciously to be his "villain", then perhaps he also subconsciously guided her to where he was!

Chris

Ah, but the multiverse theory negates the idea of only having two realities.

If you want an alternate reality then you have to accept an infinite number of realities, there's no other way around it.

It is possible that Phil acted as a beacon for Erica, I'll give you that, but that depends on the date of her arrival (which I'll bet is the same day of the accident or a date later, hence her statement about the world not meant to be there).

cjv · Post by **cjv** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:29 pm

ManofTheAtom wrote:The multiverse theory postulates that there is an infinite number of alternate realities.

Ummm...let's get a grip here. Perhaps some multiverse theories postulate that there are an infinite numbers...but given that "multiverse theory" is pretty hard core science fiction in the first place, it could really postulate anything. In fact, there are MANY books that are based on the idea of two realities, two (and only two) multiple universes. The apprentice adept series by Piers Anthony I believe postulates that.

Mathematically-speaking, the odds are greater of their being sent backwards in time within the same linear timeline than it is of them being sent to the same alternate reality.

If you believe in infinite multiple universes. And if you believe that PHil didn't subconsciously influence Erica's final location.

Chris

cjv · Post by **cjv** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:30 pm

greg wrote:It could be argued that the first reality ceased to exist... because it was completely destroyed.

The second reality would be the "closest copy" of the first reality,
except that it would have new things like Geomancers, Harbingers, etc.
Both Phil and Gayle being "thrown into" the closest copy seems to make sense.

All other realities would be "copies of copies", and the amount of changes
would increase as you got further from the original... more exotic "mutations",
more exotic alien species, stranger scenarios when compared to the original.

Erica's desire to destroy all of reality was a desire to "let it all die" the way the first reality died.

Sort of stack of papers - if the top one is destroyed, you go to the next paper down. And the further down you progress, the more differences there are from the top, "original" paper.

Interesting.

Chris