A new Valiant could still use Phil Seleski, if not Solar...

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 7:04 pm

bamaphilosopher wrote:I think it would be a mistake to embrace all of VH1 as continuity. They have to appeal to new readers. Either reprint pre-Unity and Unity and use it as the foundation, starting with Unity 1 and going from there, or start over. You and I may have all the VH1 stories, but new readers won't.

(Please stop calling it VH 1, that only gives more validity to what Nicieza did. It's called VALIANT

. There's a reason Acclaim dropped that name when they did "VH 2".)

Those stories take place specifically in the early 90's.

Reprinting them to introduce the concepts to new readers is a genius idea, but reprinting them with the intention of using it as a way to launch new series isn't as smart.

New readers will not spend their money on unknown characters (even after getting the reprints) to read how Jim Shooter (a writer unknwon to most if not all of them) would rewrite the end of Unity.

I'm not a new reader and I have zero interest in new VALIANT comics that pretend that Unity happened yesterday. That's not what I waited a decade for.

I don't see how embracing all of VALIANT continuity would do any harm. Certainly pretending that 1992 took place last week would.

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 7:06 pm

bamaphilosopher wrote:I don't know about Spider-Man's four alternate identities, but I do know Phil Seleski created alternate identities for himself all the time, including of course Solar. That is typical of the "Second Death" storyline, and hence right in line with the character.

If you mean Blackwell that's not a proper example as Blackwell wasn't a superhero.

If you mean the Priest story where he pretended to be a cop with another life that be a post Unity story.

bamaphilosopher · Post by **bamaphilosopher** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 7:13 pm

If new readers would balk at bringing back all of Unity, imagine how they'd balk at having to collect the entire VH1 run to understand what's happening?

No, they have to start fresh. As you said, it's been 10 years. I know you want some of the cliffhangers addressed, but new readers just won't get it.

Restarts, like John Byrne's Superman, can be very successful if done well. It doesn't have to be like VH2.

Otherwise, give new readers a manageable continuity (pre-Unity and Unity--you can always rewrite the dates), not the whole dang "early Valiant" (VH1) universe.

Since Deathmate brought you to Valiant, I can understand why you aren't as nostalgic for the Shooter style. But for me, Valiant has to get back to those roots. Much of what they did post-Shooter was a mistake (the Visitor really being Sting, Shanhara being killed, Secret Weapons, Harbinger without Sting, the Psi-Lords, Birthquake...must I go on?).

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 7:20 pm

bamaphilosopher wrote:If new readers would balk at bringing back all of Unity, imagine how they'd balk at having to collect the entire VH1 run to understand what's happening?

No, they have to start fresh. As you said, it's been 10 years. I know you want some of the cliffhangers addressed, but new readers just won't get it.

Restarts, like John Byrne's Superman, can be very successful if done well. It doesn't have to be like VH2.

Otherwise, give new readers a manageable continuity (pre-Unity and Unity--you can always rewrite the dates), not the whole dang "early VALIANT" (VH1) universe.

Starting 10 years later is a fresh start, they don't came any fresher than that.

Did you have a problem reading VALIANT's Magnus #1? It picked up exactly (per this website's checklist) 14 years and four months after the last issue of Magnus by Gold Key and nine years and two months after the last Magnus back up story in an issue of Whitman's Doctor Solar series.

VALIANT's Magnus #1 wasn't a reboot, it didn't pick up from a particular point in continuity, and it even made use of elements from the series earlier issues, like T-1.

In fact, would anyone happen to know what date in 4001 the last Pre VALIANT Magnus story took place in? Or did it in end in 4000?

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 7:21 pm

bamaphilosopher wrote:Since Deathmate brought you to VALIANT, I can understand why you aren't as nostalgic for the Shooter style. But for me, VALIANT has to get back to those roots. Much of what they did post-Shooter was a mistake (the Visitor really being Sting, Shanhara being killed, Secret Weapons, Harbinger without Sting, the Psi-Lords, Birthquake...must I go on?).

Actually I prefer the Shooter way of doing it, which is why ignoring continuity isn't an option.

Look at Steel Nation.

Did Shooter do a reboot, pick up from a particular point in continuity, or did he tell "the next Magnus story after the last published by Gold Key (or Whitman)"?

bamaphilosopher · Post by **bamaphilosopher** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 7:31 pm

I think Magnus was a rare case because they were still able to tell his origin in those first issues, and really create a whole new feel with the Steel Nation storyline. And also they had those cards to tell you of other characters, like Xyrkol. Even still, I felt cheated not having those early stories.

Plus, Magnus was just one title, not an entire comics universe. Even Marvel has to struggle with pleasing old fans and getting new readers, hence their solution being the Ultimate storylines, a reboot.

Besides, embracing all of VH1 means embracing Birthquake and all those mistakes I listed above as continuity. I don't want to do that any more than a new reader would.

And if they can't secure the rights to Magnus, Solar, and Turok, if those rights belong to another company, it would make no sense to embrace any of that continuity anyway, as it's all intertwined with the Gold Key characters.

And your argument that they embrace VH1 and not VH2 is just as arbitrary as mine that they embrace pre-Unity and Unity, but not afterward. At least where I would draw the line if we went that route, people wouldn't have to buy as many back issues.

Another example comes from Magnus, too: they fast-forwarded his story toward the end, which really made me feel cheated.

Now, they'd have to fast-forward all those VH1 stories 10 years, essentially cheating us out of such events as the death of Shadowman, etc. You yourself keep pointing out the dates of Unity. Everyone would have to be ten years older. What's been going on for those ten years?

No, they would be best served to start over. Or if they are going to embrace past continuity, go with pre-Unity and Unity, and forget a lot of the crap that came after. And yes, it was crap (Birthquake, etc.).

Also, they'd have to embrace X-O Manowar 68 as continuity, meaning VH1 really didn't happen anyway and was a dream. Boy, that ruined everything!

In fact, I think that'll be my standard reply to you from now on. "Then if you're right, X-O Manowar 68 is continuity, and the whole thing's a dream." LOL.

Rather than all that mess, they'd best be served just starting fresh.

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 7:37 pm

I still think that you're being too negative.

Yes, something like BQuake would still be part of continuity, but that doesn't mean that they have to dwell on it, just like they didn't dwell on every single bad Magnus story published by Gold Key.

VH 2 can be dismissed as a comic book company that exists within VALIANT. Look at Dan Jurgen's Solar run for how that could be accomplished.

Jurgens "outed" Solar to the world, he turned him into a line of action figures, so who says that a comic book company couldn't have made comic books based on the real world heroes.

In a real world context super heroes would be like celebrities, so if MC Hammer and Macaley (sp?) could have cartoons in the 90's and Michael Jackson and the New Kids on the Block could have a line of action figures then surely the same would happen with super heroes. Those comics would be the VH 2 comics.

If they can't secure the rights to use Solar and Magnus maybe they can't even reprint any of the pre Unity titles.

For example, if they don't have the rights to use Solar they would need to take him out of X-O #5 or 6 I think it was, even though he was only in it for a panel or two.

As for fast forwarding Magnus, the cliffhanger was that he was sent back in time. Maybe they could use it to say that he was sent back to 4002, merged with his past self, and that leads to the creation of a new timeline. Or maybe he was sent forward and finds that North Am's fallen victim to a new alien robotic empire and has to become a Robot Fighter again.

Starting over should always be the last resort.

It wouldn't be in VE's best interest to spend their money and resources to establish themselves as a completely new universe.

bamaphilosopher · Post by **bamaphilosopher** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 7:38 pm

If you're right, then X-O 68 is continuity. 'Nuff said.

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 7:40 pm

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 7:41 pm

bamaphilosopher wrote:If you're right, then X-O 68 is continuity. 'Nuff said.

Right, and it's a cliffhanger that should be resolved.

Just because it's in continuity it doesn't mean it can't be contradicted, that the so-called revelation that it was all a dream can't be proven false.

Elveen · Post by **Elveen** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 9:03 pm

I say hire Shooter... give him complete control......

let him sort it all out.......

(by the way.... I stoped reading this thread about half way through... sorry

)

IanAlexavier · Post by **IanAlexavier** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:54 pm

Wow, I can feel the love

just teasing,.. its neat to see the passion you both have and the love of the stories and characters..

What about callign him Solar Flare.. and making him use a black suit until he can use the original? what about seeing him only in the shadows and not using aname at all.. but WE would know it was him.. I hated the idea of the Visitor.. but Phil could be that guy that we see people interacting with and yet know one knows his name..

or something like that..

I agree to keep the number of titles to a minimum.. focus on stories, increase titles to help tell the stories and make more money when the company is ready to.

8 titles would be perfect. 2 each week... Also, like I stated before. Do flip books for other titles that arent necessarily ready for monthly.

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:56 pm

Just bring back the Destroyer and be done with it.

IanAlexavier · Post by **IanAlexavier** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:58 pm

Sure call him Destroyer for a while... then make him back into Solar.. what abotu calling him Solarflare? LOL

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 11:00 pm

Or just wait until you can call him Solar and don't use him until then.

I don't understand what the rush is.

Is Solar important to the VU? Yes.

Is he necessary for it right out of the gate? No, not really.

I'd much rather wait so that his return can be an event (maybe even the first crossover they do) than bring him back as anything other than Solar.

IanAlexavier · Post by **IanAlexavier** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 11:03 pm

I liek the idea of a cross over event.... but how long would we need to wait..

Too bad there wasnt a thread that gave company updates here... a sticky that was always at the top that only a few people could type in.. not one for discussion.. one to give out info

14 years from one Magnus to the other eh? THen were getting close

LOL

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 11:11 pm

ianalexavier wrote:I liek the idea of a cross over event.... but how long would we need to wait..

Too bad there wasnt a thread that gave company updates here... a sticky that was always at the top that only a few people could type in.. not one for discussion.. one to give out info

14 years from one Magnus to the other eh? THen were getting close LOL

Heh

I wouldn't mind waiting six months to a year until there was a crossover and until Solar returned.

And now that I think about it I'd much rather wait until the first crossover for Solar to come back even if they do get the rights now.

I'm sure the new owners will use this board to update people on what they're doing, it be the right thing to do.

X-O Dudeowar · Post by **X-O Dudeowar** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 11:26 pm

I just hope the second-tier guys get some props. While I can see Armorines and H.A.R.D. Corps not being part of the initial rebirth, I hope they at least have some prominence. Ditto for Dr. Mirage. Those are some of my favourites, so I'd hate to see them skipped over!

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 11:30 pm

X-O Dudeowar wrote:I just hope the second-tier guys get some props. While I can see Armorines and H.A.R.D. Corps not being part of the initial rebirth, I hope they at least have some prominence. Ditto for Dr. Mirage. Those are some of my favourites, so I'd hate to see them skipped over!

Dr Mirage was one of my favorites too, but what I'd really like to see is what happened to Carmen and their child after Hwen died in 99 after the Darque Pool dried OR if Hwen somehow survived.

Personally I hope he didn't because part of the appeal of the concept for me was Hwen's nature as a ghost linked to the DP, and without that he's just a regular guy.

I'd be more interested in exploring their child's nature as a hybrid of a mortal and a being made of necromantic energy.

X-O Dudeowar · Post by **X-O Dudeowar** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:48 am

ManofTheAtom wrote: I'd be more interested in exploring their child's nature as a hybrid of a mortal and a being made of necromantic energy.

That would be pretty interesting. It's issues like that that keep me from deciding whether I'd like a continued universe or a reboot (assuming I'm using that term properly) in the new VALIANT comics. c.c

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:03 am

X-O Dudeowar wrote:
ManofTheAtom wrote: I'd be more interested in exploring their child's nature as a hybrid of a mortal and a being made of necromantic energy.
That would be pretty interesting. It's issues like that that keep me from deciding whether I'd like a continued universe or a reboot (assuming I'm using that term properly) in the new VALIANT comics. c.c

It be like if Erica's baby from the early issues of Solar hadn't died.

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:40 am

Did anyone here watch Dallas?

Remember how the series ended, with JR standing in front of a mirror in his room holding a gun in his hand after reminiscing about his life with the Devil?

Remember how the last thing heard before the show ended was a gun shot and people assumed JR had killed himself?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallas_%28 ... iffhangers

After being shown what life would be like without him and being egged on by the devil to kill himself, J.R. fires a gun in his room. Bobby enters looks down, exclaims "Oh my God!", and we are led to believe that J.R. Ewing has committed suicide.

The cliffhanger laid unresolved for five years until the TV movie Dallas: JR Returns came out, at which point what really happened was revealed.

Resolution: J.R. shot the mirror, where the devil was appearing to him, and left Southfork that night for a stay in Europe, where he remained for five years.

Dallas' highest point was the "Who Shot JR?" cliffhanger 11 years (seasons) earlier, a story that was resolved on the fourth season of the show.

The "Pick up after Unity" argument would be similar to suggesting that Dallas should have picked up after it's highest point instead of its lowest (JR and the devil? Come on), but that's what they ended up doing and got two movies out of.

The whole dream season, btw, is moot to this discussion as that's already been covered in X-O Manowar #68, lol.

dave · Post by **dave** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:40 am

not trying to be negative, but what if it takes the new valiant 3 years to get the rights to solar? that is a long time to have the Q? remain unresolved...alot of books would be published in that time....i think the situation has to be addressed in some way..."outing" solar to the world the way that jurgens did, could be the best way to do that-phil realizes that everyone knows who he is, and since he wants to continue fighting bad guys, but also wants privacy, he changes his name and costume. that's not hard, or far-fetched.

Elveen · Post by **Elveen** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:53 am

dave wrote:not trying to be negative, but what if it takes the new VALIANT 3 years to get the rights to solar? that is a long time to have the Q? remain unresolved...alot of books would be published in that time....i think the situation has to be addressed in some way..."outing" solar to the world the way that jurgens did, could be the best way to do that-phil realizes that everyone knows who he is, and since he wants to continue fighting bad guys, but also wants privacy, he changes his name and costume. that's not hard, or far-fetched.

me likely..... bye bye red suit Solar.... hello SunStoke / SunBurst / Sol / MagmaMan / SunSpot / ColdFusion / FissionFella / SolSeliski / SunBright / SolarStormer ..... or my favorite.....

Devo......

...but really.... a good idea Dave!

bamaphilosopher · Post by **bamaphilosopher** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:56 am

Ah, it's good to see others chime in!

The way X-O was gutted (no more Orb Industries) and its desperately-needed supporting cast removed (Ken, Randy Cartier) makes that title alone desperately in need of a reboot.

Solar Flare, SunStroke, even the Destroyer...any of that would be fine. And thanks for the agreement, Dave! I agree they might as well go ahead and use the character.

I also think "Alpha and Omega" and Phil Seleski is pivotal to the universe, it's why the earth chose to have Geomancers and heroes like Gilad, to protect itself from the "sun demon."

I respect ManofTheAtom's opinion, but we have to agree to disagree--there is no way I'd go for just continuing. Yes, it worked with Magnus, but Magnus hadn't been decimated by bad stories like X-O Manowar. Though they continued with Magnus at the time, they did have to re-do Solar, and I think similarly the new group would have to re-do the mess that was created at the end of VH1 on titles like X-O, especially since it would be the flagship title (assuming they don't have the rights to Magnus). If they reboot, I think new fans would appreciate having the origin stories and feeling like they owned the whole universe. I know I felt that way with Byrne's Superman.

If not reboot, then start at the end of Unity 1, reprint pre-Unity and Unity (changing the dates), and correct the egregious stuff that happened later with Birthquake, X-O Manowar, etc.

Also, if they don't reboot, they'd have to go with Rai 0 continuity, and with 2026 and other pivotal dates coming up soon, that would tie them down and restrict what they could do. Jack Boniface would have died, and we all missed it. And titles like Harbinger would no longer have the teenage rebel feel it so desperately needs, because the characters would all be in their thirties now, unless they did the title without Sting and the gang (which would be a HUGE mistake, in my opinion). I think that book works best with a young teenage rebel Sting.

So I vote to reboot! Especially with X-O, Shadowman (Jack Boniface), and Harbinger, it just makes sense.

The only real question would be whether it would be feasible for a new company to reprint and use pre-Unity and Unity or not, changing the dates, or just go with Alpha and Omega, or start fresh. And that would be a tough decision. I assume that, without the rights to Magnus and Solar, and the huge paper costs of having to reprint all that and either add it to the books or expect fans to buy it, they might just have to start fresh. Reprinting Alpha and Omega and starting from there might be more feasible.

Anyway, I like the idea of getting Shooter and having him sort it out.

But they might not have that option. In any case, they need to go with the "Shooter" style...tight continuity, not too many titles, using real world science, people who die stay dead, etc.

ValiantFans.com Board - Since 2004

A new Valiant could still use Phil Seleski, if not Solar...

Re: .

Re: .

.

Re: .

Re: .

.

.

Re: .

.