Was Wizard a Necessary Evil?

[justin]

What about the Harbinger Files card that came in Wizard. I will have to check at home, I can't remember which issue that came in!

-A

[The Spider]

But I think Wizard DID hype Image quite a lot, from what I remember. Despite Image's lateness, the company was brought up often in the magazine. Weren't there more Image covers than Valiant covers, anyway?

The thing you have to remember about Image was that it was a FORCE in the industry, a huge hurricane shaking up the status quo. Image was ALL the news in the Winter of 1991-1992, all anyone talked about. At the same time, Valiant was quietly publishing some GREAT stuff, and making it DAMN rare.

I'm not saying Wizard DIDN'T hype Image....and yes, there were several Image books in the Wizard top 10...but NONE of them stayed there anywhere near the year+ of Harb #1, Magnus #12, Solar #10. It's simply that there were far too MANY Image books in existence for them to be a back issue force to be reckoned with. The fans just weren't buying it, and rightly so....

If you don't believe that...how many of the HOTTEST Image books sold for more than $10, ever over 1992-1993? 3? 4?

How many of Valiant did...?

And that's not to discount Image's contribution to the industry; on the contrary, they sit it on its ear, doing what had never been done before, opening a LOT of doors for other independent publishers, and improving the rights and benefits of thousands of work for hire creators in the industry.

But create collectible comics, they did NOT.

By those terms, yes, Valiant was more successful than Image. But then, SPIDER-MAN #1, X-FORCE #1, and X-MEN #1 was initially touted as a success because it sold millions of copies, desipte the fact that as the months went on, those comics weren't really as collectible as they're made out to be.

Back then, early Image was considered a success, even if they didn't produce comics that went up to $10. I guess it does take years to find out if a comic is still worth paying for (compare early Valiants to early Image NOW, I mean)

[The Spider]

What about the Harbinger Files card that came in Wizard. I will have to check at home, I can't remember which issue that came in!

-A

Wasn't that included with the Valiant Special WIZARD made? Or was it the regular issue.

[Rai-fan]

I think Wizard's Valiant hype was a necessary evil. As was stated, the two enjoyed a symbiotic relationship.

Not disputing that Wizard precipitated the rampant speculation that led to Valiant's downfall (I'm sorry--but lcs's ordering 200 copies of Harbinger 15-20 was not a rational or good thing), but it did announce the comics to the mainstream.

I forget where I first heard about Unity 0, but I think it was from Wizard.

Honestly, it was overhearing my lcs dealer showing a long box of Valiant backstock to his employee explaining how much money it'd soon be worth that made me first want to get them all--the employee was hoping to pick up a copy of Iron Man 55 for under $30, & his boss said "buy these instead." That's a long box of back issue valiants when X-0 5 was still on the shelf & Unity was still available for preorder.

I also don't forgive Wizard for leading to the cancellation of Comics Values Monthly.

[Bob Layton]

Allow me to put my two cents into the mix:
In truth, Garab Shamus and Steve Massarsky were very good friends and that relationship carried over into the pages of Wizard.
In truth--we were as much "in bed' with Wizard as we were with Western Publishing.
Keep in mind that Wizard was also partly responsible for the downfall of Valiant, as well.
Fred Pierce, Wizard's current Prez, was originally placed in Valiant by Triumph, the venture capitalists who bankrolled the company, to oversee our operation and report on our business activities to them. <i>(basically--a spy. Thank Shooter and his excessive spending for that.)</i> Eventually, Fred's job evolved into V.P. of Manufacturing for Valiant and he did pretty damn good at it, if I have to admit it.
When Pierce did not receive a partnership in the Acclaim buyout deal, he became disgruntled and left the company to join Wizard as the #2 guy. Systematically, he began cherry-picking our best employees and the overall tone of Wizard towards Valiant became decidedly negative. In time, our once-valued publishing friend became our worst enemy. (Granted, Acclaim's questionable management didn't help the situation any.)

Bob
bob@boblayton.com

[Vault-Keeper]

What an interesting story, Bob! Most fanboys dont have any idea about the inner workings of the business end of the indudtry. I don't mean story & art production, I mean the actual 'Business' end of things, & how personal friendships & business partners dictate alot of the direction a company will go. Everything's political, (& I don't mean Washington, although it happens there the most...)---Steve G

[Todd Luck]

From my own perspective, I never would have even thought to consider Valiant if Wizard hadn't made a big deal about them; first putting X-O on the cover and then talking up Valiant like there was no tomorrow. Is that also true for most fans and retailers? Would Unity have really caught anyone's attention without Wizard promoting it up the *SQUEE* (plus all the Valiant advertisements in Wizard)? Would Valiant have broken out of obscurity without Wizard to aid it?

Anything's possible. Wizard was a huge help in the olden days but I think Unity, with the free comic and Previews cover, would've pulled in people anyway and with the proliferation of comic magazines that were covering new comic companies, who knows? It might not have been as big but they could've turned a profit. I started collecting Valiant before Wizard came out (heard about the company in frequent CNS articles) and my best friend got into them because he picked up Rai and the Future Force #9 (I think he was attracted by the cover). Not sure why everyone else we knew read them:).

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

By those terms, yes, Valiant was more successful than Image. But then, SPIDER-MAN #1, X-FORCE #1, and X-MEN #1 was initially touted as a success because it sold millions of copies, desipte the fact that as the months went on, those comics weren't really as collectible as they're made out to be.

Back then, early Image was considered a success, even if they didn't produce comics that went up to $10. I guess it does take years to find out if a comic is still worth paying for (compare early Valiants to early Image NOW, I mean)

But the point of the discussion isn't 'who was more succesful'...the point is Wizard's contribution to the rise and fall of Valiant, and it was nearly symbiotic.

Let me clarify and talk about just the COLLECTIBLE aspect of Wizard. Yes, Wizard touted the heck out of Image as a 'books as they are coming out' phenom. But, as far as the 'back issue market' was concerned, it was All Valiant, All the Time, and that was the point. Nearly everything Valiant printed had 'gone up' in the Wizard guide, sometimes hundreds of times cover price, something Image still, to this day, has never done with a 'standard' issue.

The fact is, Valiants were smoking, EVERYONE was making money, and it was almost exclusively because of Wizard. People (myself included) used to wait for Wizard every month just to see how much Valiants had 'gone up'. There was none of that for any other publisher, much less Image. Sure, there were individual books from Marvel, DC, Image and whatnot that were 'hot'...but, in 1992-1993, nothing like Valiant as a whole.

So, no, Marvel's 'big books' had already all come out by the time Wizard printed its first issue, and were never a 'back issue phenom'. X-Men #1 was never on the top ten (as far as I can remember), neither was X-Force or Spidey, all of them before Wizard really got going...and...with print runs in the millions...likely wouldn't have made it anyways.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Allow me to put my two cents into the mix:
In truth, Garab Shamus and Steve Massarsky were very good friends and that relationship carried over into the pages of Wizard.
In truth--we were as much "in bed' with Wizard as we were with Western Publishing.
Keep in mind that Wizard was also partly responsible for the downfall of Valiant, as well.
Fred Pierce, Wizard's current Prez, was originally placed in Valiant by Triumph, the venture capitalists who bankrolled the company, to oversee our operation and report on our business activities to them. <i>(basically--a spy. Thank Shooter and his excessive spending for that.)</i> Eventually, Fred's job evolved into V.P. of Manufacturing for Valiant and he did pretty damn good at it, if I have to admit it.
When Pierce did not receive a partnership in the Acclaim buyout deal, he became disgruntled and left the company to join Wizard as the #2 guy. Systematically, he began cherry-picking our best employees and the overall tone of Wizard towards Valiant became decidedly negative. In time, our once-valued publishing friend became our worst enemy. (Granted, Acclaim's questionable management didn't help the situation any.)

Bob
bob@boblayton.com

Which is what I said, but without the cool insider facts. VERY cool. Thanks Bob!

[DJSpecter]

Thank you Mr. Layton! I was always wondering what a guy named "Pierce" was doing in the Executive branch of Valiant.

-Dave

[iggy101us]

Allow me to put my two cents into the mix:
In truth, Garab Shamus and Steve Massarsky were very good friends and that relationship carried over into the pages of Wizard.
In truth--we were as much "in bed' with Wizard as we were with Western Publishing.
Keep in mind that Wizard was also partly responsible for the downfall of Valiant, as well.
Fred Pierce, Wizard's current Prez, was originally placed in Valiant by Triumph, the venture capitalists who bankrolled the company, to oversee our operation and report on our business activities to them. <i>(basically--a spy. Thank Shooter and his excessive spending for that.)</i> Eventually, Fred's job evolved into V.P. of Manufacturing for Valiant and he did pretty damn good at it, if I have to admit it.
When Pierce did not receive a partnership in the Acclaim buyout deal, he became disgruntled and left the company to join Wizard as the #2 guy. Systematically, he began cherry-picking our best employees and the overall tone of Wizard towards Valiant became decidedly negative. In time, our once-valued publishing friend became our worst enemy. (Granted, Acclaim's questionable management didn't help the situation any.)

Bob
bob@boblayton.com

Interesting

The circle is now complete . . .

[MoonChild]

Allow me to put my two cents into the mix:
In truth, Garab Shamus and Steve Massarsky were very good friends and that relationship carried over into the pages of Wizard.
In truth--we were as much "in bed' with Wizard as we were with Western Publishing.
Keep in mind that Wizard was also partly responsible for the downfall of Valiant, as well.
Fred Pierce, Wizard's current Prez, was originally placed in Valiant by Triumph, the venture capitalists who bankrolled the company, to oversee our operation and report on our business activities to them. <i>(basically--a spy. Thank Shooter and his excessive spending for that.)</i> Eventually, Fred's job evolved into V.P. of Manufacturing for Valiant and he did pretty damn good at it, if I have to admit it.
When Pierce did not receive a partnership in the Acclaim buyout deal, he became disgruntled and left the company to join Wizard as the #2 guy. Systematically, he began cherry-picking our best employees and the overall tone of Wizard towards Valiant became decidedly negative. In time, our once-valued publishing friend became our worst enemy. (Granted, Acclaim's questionable management didn't help the situation any.)

Bob
bob@boblayton.com

Interesting

The circle is now complete . . .

[robb77]

Allow me to put my two cents into the mix:
In truth, Garab Shamus and Steve Massarsky were very good friends and that relationship carried over into the pages of Wizard.
In truth--we were as much "in bed' with Wizard as we were with Western Publishing.
Keep in mind that Wizard was also partly responsible for the downfall of Valiant, as well.
Fred Pierce, Wizard's current Prez, was originally placed in Valiant by Triumph, the venture capitalists who bankrolled the company, to oversee our operation and report on our business activities to them. <i>(basically--a spy. Thank Shooter and his excessive spending for that.)</i> Eventually, Fred's job evolved into V.P. of Manufacturing for Valiant and he did pretty damn good at it, if I have to admit it.
When Pierce did not receive a partnership in the Acclaim buyout deal, he became disgruntled and left the company to join Wizard as the #2 guy. Systematically, he began cherry-picking our best employees and the overall tone of Wizard towards Valiant became decidedly negative. In time, our once-valued publishing friend became our worst enemy. (Granted, Acclaim's questionable management didn't help the situation any.)

Bob
bob@boblayton.com

Interesting

The circle is now complete . . .

[LordofBrooklyn]

I think Wizard's promotion of Valiant may be a lot more pragmatic on the part of Shamus if the rumors are to be believed.

I've heard that Shamus's mother owned a comic shop with a large back log of Valiant comics. Shamus had the platform with Wizard and started to push those books heavily.

The windfall would presumably be great as issues were going for hundreds of dollars with ease.

I've heard this several times but I don't remember an accusation being made at the peak of the relationship. Although, at the time who would want to be on the bad side of Wizard?

[JCVaughn]

I think Bob Layton's comments offer a lot of insight. I'd love to hear Fred Pierce's take on it.

My two cents, as someone who in those days couldn't stand Wizard (hey, I went to work for Overstreet, c'mon!), was that Wizard followed the market at that point. You can find many instances when they were trying to lead it (They had Wetworks #1 at $5 in their price guide for more than a year before it was released, just as a for instance), but the strong pre-Unity stories and the smaller print runs compared to the number of people reading later issues drove the market.

Check out back issues of Wizard when the pre-Unity stuff was coming out. Virtually nothing. Then, once Valiant was already hot, boom.

Wizard did indeed fan the flames of the speculator boom, but they could not have done so for as long as they did in Valiant's case if the early books hadn't been highly sought after. What they did articifically was try to make later issues with much higher print runs just as hot. You can do that in the short term, but not in the long term.

And like anything else, Wizard didn't make anyone go crazy and buy 3,000 copies of Bloodshot #1. The speculator approach was the bandwagon. Wizard just hopped on.

Someone mentioned the "collector" mindset. I don't think there's the slightest thing wrong with being a collector. There's a big, BIG difference between that and people who were stripmining the business.

[Mike J]

I mostly hate Wizard, with the exception of the following . . . .

The less and less they talk about Valiant at this current moment, the cheaper I can snag deals out from the LCS owner's nose

[LordofBrooklyn]

I can see the images of the speculator boom so clearly as this topic came up.

I noticed no less than 10 comic shops open up with the same sign emblazoned in their windows back in the early 90's.

WE BUY VALIANT COMICS

In less than 2 years they were all closed.

There is poetic justice in people speculating out of pure greed and ultimately succumbing to a machine that they helped create.

[sanman]

I can see the images of the speculator boom so clearly as this topic came up.

I noticed no less than 10 comic shops open up with the same sign emblazoned in their windows back in the early 90's.

WE BUY VALIANT COMICS

In less than 2 years they were all closed.

There is poetic justice in people speculating out of pure greed and ultimately succumbing to a machine that they helped create.

The ’90s were an interesting time to be a comic book reader/collector for sure—Wizard played a big part in it for better or worse.

I began high school in '89 and watched my little comic book hobby explode to the point where even jocks were picking up Spawn and Superman. A big part of my young teenage experience revolved around hanging out with friends who were into comics and sci-fi.

So while I spent too much money on comics and collectables having a list of comic shops to visit on any given weekend—not to mention regular comic book and sci-fi cons—I enjoyed being in the middle of it all.

And maybe many were greedy, but most of the folks that I met through the hobby were decent folks who treated me fairly. I wish comics were still popular enough that shop owners today could make a decent living while suggesting that comic books still have a bright future.

I’d go as far as saying that I miss the excitement and community that surrounded the hobby back then. Maybe I’m older or I just shop at a crappy LCS but it’s not just as fun anymore.

Then again if I knew then what I know today...

[LordofBrooklyn]

I can see the images of the speculator boom so clearly as this topic came up.

I noticed no less than 10 comic shops open up with the same sign emblazoned in their windows back in the early 90's.

WE BUY VALIANT COMICS

In less than 2 years they were all closed.

There is poetic justice in people speculating out of pure greed and ultimately succumbing to a machine that they helped create.

The ’90s were an interesting time to be a comic book reader/collector for sure—Wizard played a big part in it for better or worse.

I began high school in '89 and watched my little comic book hobby explode to the point where even jocks were picking up Spawn and Superman. A big part of my young teenage experience revolved around hanging out with friends who were into comics and sci-fi.

So while I spent too much money on comics and collectables having a list of comic shops to visit on any given weekend—not to mention regular comic book and sci-fi cons—I enjoyed being in the middle of it all.

And maybe many were greedy, but most of the folks that I met through the hobby were decent folks who treated me fairly. I wish comics were still popular enough that shop owners today could make a decent living while suggesting that comic books still have a bright future.

I’d go as far as saying that I miss the excitement and community that surrounded the hobby back then. Maybe I’m older or I just shop at a crappy LCS but it’s not just as fun anymore.

Then again if I knew then what I know today...

My time of adolosence was the same as yours but I have a different take.

While I enjoyed the increased exposure the medium was getting; I never got the impression from the new collectors that their passion for comics existed oustide of speculation.

It might be the Brooklyn way that spoiled things but I remember people constantly planning out their financial futures based on their pull list.

[ian_house]

[quote="sanman]I began high school in '89 and watched my little comic book hobby explode to the point where even jocks were picking up Spawn and Superman. A big part of my young teenage experience revolved around hanging out with friends who were into comics and sci-fi.
[/quote]

I find the idea of jocks very confusing... (bear in mind the only representation I would have seen would be in a film or tv show)

[Daniel Jackson]

I can see the images of the speculator boom so clearly as this topic came up.

I noticed no less than 10 comic shops open up with the same sign emblazoned in their windows back in the early 90's.

WE BUY VALIANT COMICS

In less than 2 years they were all closed.

There is poetic justice in people speculating out of pure greed and ultimately succumbing to a machine that they helped create.

The ’90s were an interesting time to be a comic book reader/collector for sure—Wizard played a big part in it for better or worse.

I began high school in '89 and watched my little comic book hobby explode to the point where even jocks were picking up Spawn and Superman. A big part of my young teenage experience revolved around hanging out with friends who were into comics and sci-fi.

So while I spent too much money on comics and collectables having a list of comic shops to visit on any given weekend—not to mention regular comic book and sci-fi cons—I enjoyed being in the middle of it all.

And maybe many were greedy, but most of the folks that I met through the hobby were decent folks who treated me fairly. I wish comics were still popular enough that shop owners today could make a decent living while suggesting that comic books still have a bright future.

I’d go as far as saying that I miss the excitement and community that surrounded the hobby back then. Maybe I’m older or I just shop at a crappy LCS but it’s not just as fun anymore.

Then again if I knew then what I know today...

Around here not many local shops survived long after the crash. Even the decent places got caught up with the greedy speculation and ended up going out of business. Toward the end, they were practically giving books away that once had $50, $100 even $200 dollar price tags on them. Some places were even tossing the more common books in dumpsters just to get rid of them.

[StarBrand]

Nice bump Iggy. I've enjoyed reading this thread. Classic stuff.

[Elveen]

I can see the images of the speculator boom so clearly as this topic came up.

I noticed no less than 10 comic shops open up with the same sign emblazoned in their windows back in the early 90's.

WE BUY VALIANT COMICS

In less than 2 years they were all closed.

There is poetic justice in people speculating out of pure greed and ultimately succumbing to a machine that they helped create.

The ’90s were an interesting time to be a comic book reader/collector for sure—Wizard played a big part in it for better or worse.

I began high school in '89 and watched my little comic book hobby explode to the point where even jocks were picking up Spawn and Superman. A big part of my young teenage experience revolved around hanging out with friends who were into comics and sci-fi.

So while I spent too much money on comics and collectables having a list of comic shops to visit on any given weekend—not to mention regular comic book and sci-fi cons—I enjoyed being in the middle of it all.

And maybe many were greedy, but most of the folks that I met through the hobby were decent folks who treated me fairly. I wish comics were still popular enough that shop owners today could make a decent living while suggesting that comic books still have a bright future.

I’d go as far as saying that I miss the excitement and community that surrounded the hobby back then. Maybe I’m older or I just shop at a crappy LCS but it’s not just as fun anymore.

Then again if I knew then what I know today...

Around here not many local shops survived long after the crash. Even the decent places got caught up with the greedy speculation and ended up going out of business. Toward the end, they were practically giving books away that once had $50, $100 even $200 dollar price tags on them. Some places were even tossing the more common books in dumpsters just to get rid of them.

I have talked to six or seven shops that said they tossed many Valiants in the trash.

[sanman]

My time of adolosence was the same as yours but I have a different take.

While I enjoyed the increased exposure the medium was getting; I never got the impression from the new collectors that their passion for comics existed oustide of speculation.

It might be the Brooklyn way that spoiled things but I remember people constantly planning out their financial futures based on their pull list.

Yeah, that’s understandable. I lived in a suburb of New Orleans—St. Bernard Parish—that was much more community focused. In fact as a young driver, moving violations were addressed with warnings from police officers—not costly tickets.

That said, there were three shops within 5 miles of my house when Valiant was hot and while one was owned by a greedy jerk (I rarely shopped with him) the rest were owned and operated by real enthusiasts trying to supplement their incomes. The same was true about the several other shops in nearby comminutes.

In contrast, I saw more greedy behavior from customers who indeed thought their purchases would someday make them rich and/or would order something and hang the store with it.

I find the idea of jocks very confusing... (bear in mind the only representation I would have seen would be in a film or tv show)

Maybe but consider the time. Superman was big with Lois & Clark and the Death event. Even today, you still see non comic book enthusiasts sporting the iconic S—a cultural practice that began during the 90’s boom. In addition, spawn was just too hot not to notice.

By no means am I trying to imply that the entire defensive end read comics—I’m not sure they all could read—but I would be amazed to see certain people at the comic shops and cons. Maybe it goes back to the small community thing.

I do know that I was one of those middle class students who was liked or at least tolerated by most and my hobbies were never attacked or ridiculed by the social upper class.

[Daniel Jackson]

Around here not many local shops survived long after the crash. Even the decent places got caught up with the greedy speculation and ended up going out of business. Toward the end, they were practically giving books away that once had $50, $100 even $200 dollar price tags on them. Some places were even tossing the more common books in dumpsters just to get rid of them.

I have talked to six or seven shops that said they tossed many Valiants in the trash.

I think that has a lot to do with the bad vibes towards anything Valiant among the local shops that did manage to stay in business. I can't tell you how many shops I've been in where they laugh out loud or give you a strange look when you ask where the Valiant back issues are at.

One owner was actually on the verge of crying when I placed an X-O gold on the counter I found in his quarter bin (it still had the $80 price tag on it). His shop barely managed to survive when things started turning sour. He used to have one of the better places in town too.