CGC vs PGA vs 3PG

[DawgPhan]

Dawg...

I've personally spoken to Steve Borock regarding the "pressing" issues

I also gave him my thoughts, DO NOT GO THERE!...it would be a TREMENDOUS negative towards CGC credibility...and most know i'm a major CGC supporter

He has also heard from far bigger collectors than myself advising them of the same. I believe in the end, logical heads will prevail

I would like to think that logical heads would prevail, but I also think that the almighty dollar might have the last say in the matter...

I agree though...they need to smash these pressing rumors hard and fast, which they dont seem to be doing considering that the thread on the cgc board is well over 500 post by now..

[DawgPhan]

Oh and glad to see you back...I hope that things have been going well..

[X-O HoboJoe]

Thanks for the info, Dawg. As a die-hard Arkansas Razorback fan, you know I value any truth that doesn't make the Hogs look bad.

[depluto]

What the heck is up with all the Razorbacks who collect Valiant comics?

Was Jack Crowe running a comic book shop along with that wishbone?

[DawgPhan]

What the heck is up with all the Razorbacks who collect Valiant comics?

Was Jack Crowe running a comic book shop along with that wishbone?

They need something to distract them during football season. Of course now that it is championship week and bowl season they will need something to do...Someone reading comics to them should keep them busy for the next few weeks.

Arkansas...at least we aint alabama

[Vault-Keeper]

It's still hard for me to understand why a slabbed book brings so much more money. As a collector & grader wth 36 years of experience, it shows me how many inexperienced &/or lazy collectors there are out there.

Sure, it's easy to sell a slabbed 9.8, & say it was 'Professionally' graded. But in all seriousness, if you are that big of a comic-book collector, you should take the time to LEARN HOW TO GRADE for yourself.
Sure, it's not easy, especially for newbies or collectors who have only had experience with new books. But, like I said, if you are serious enough of a collector to fork out big bucks for a CGC book, you should be serious enough of a collector to PAINSTAKINGLY learn how to grade.

The Overstreet Grading Guide is an invaluable reference tool, second only to hands on experience.

Alot of collectors buy 'Pro' graded books off ebay, because they say most people who sell comics on ebay don't know how to grade raw books, & they don't want to be ripped off. This brings me to a valid 2nd point: Serious collectors establish lasting relationships with reputable dealers & other serious collectors. You should know (as well as you can) who you're buying from.

I don't own any slabbed books, but I can say that from what I've read & seen, CGG/PGA may not be able to get over the rep they've been given, justly or unjustly, over their past problems. If a scandal comes out about CGC, expect it to hurt them just a badly.---Steve

[mrwoogieman]

The CGC slab is directed toward the lazy or uninformed or novice collector/speculator. The expecation is that the label tells all you need to know in order to make an informed decision, in effect making the comic a tradeable commodity. WHY a particular book earns a particular grade is all but irrelevant, just that it IS that grade according to the label so it should be worth what other books in that grade are realizing on the open market.

[X-O HoboJoe]

Was Jack Crowe running a comic book shop along with that wishbone?

If he was, he had to be better at it than coaching. Maybe he sold the Citadel team some Unity 0 Reds, then threw the game in return. Yeah, that's it.

Also, being a Valiant/Razorback fan's not that big a stretch: We're always ready to root for a serious underdog AND it explains why we're somewhat skeptical of 3rd party grading -- SEC refs are supposed to be impartial, too.

[DawgPhan]

The CGC slab is directed toward the lazy or uninformed or novice collector/speculator. The expecation is that the label tells all you need to know in order to make an informed decision, in effect making the comic a tradeable commodity. WHY a particular book earns a particular grade is all but irrelevant, just that it IS that grade according to the label so it should be worth what other books in that grade are realizing on the open market.

I was going to go after VK for this same statement, but I figure that I would just use yours because it was shorter.

Are you serious? Nice you know how you guys feel about comic book collectors. I can believe that VK said it, but you? Cmon. Maybe the people that are out dealing in 9.9 books that just shipped this might be true of those people...maybe, but what about the people who are using cgc for resto checks and things like that. Yes just lazy collectors...

I think that the main reason that people use cgc is because most comic book dealers are the stuff that you scrap off the bottomof your shoe after taking the dog for a walk. This opinion is because of the rampant overgrading that has been going on in the hobby since the first guide hit the streets. Most dealers couldnt grade their way outta of a paper bag and probably only know that overstreet is a price guide..That is why people use cgc, because you cant trust a comic book dealer. Period. Why do think that people bid on books like they are a grade lower on ebay? Because you cant trust those people. Hell look at chuck...the biggest comic book dealer of them all....He has no idea how to grade...

And before anyone gets their panties in a wad...There are some great guys out there selling comics. Plently of dealers that know how to grade and are just great people to know. However it is the bad ones that ruin it for everyone else.

Just dont tell me that I am lazy and ignorant because I buy CGC books...that is just crazy...I doubt that you think that greg is lazy and ignorant and he has the only 2 valiants with 10.0 labels...surely books bought solely because of the label.

[whetteon]

Professional graded books are here to stay as long as the hobby is in exsistence. The prices they realize now are just a fad in my opinion. Therefore, I would like to see cgg or another third party grading company succeed so I don't have to wait half a year to find out if I had a Solar #1 9.8 or 9.2. Maybe it's just me...

This topic always bring out the zealots in us all.

[mrwoogieman]

The CGC slab is directed toward the lazy or uninformed or novice collector/speculator. The expecation is that the label tells all you need to know in order to make an informed decision, in effect making the comic a tradeable commodity. WHY a particular book earns a particular grade is all but irrelevant, just that it IS that grade according to the label so it should be worth what other books in that grade are realizing on the open market.

I was going to go after VK for this same statement, but I figure that I would just use yours because it was shorter.

Are you serious? Nice you know how you guys feel about comic book collectors. I can believe that VK said it, but you? Cmon. Maybe the people that are out dealing in 9.9 books that just shipped this might be true of those people...maybe, but what about the people who are using cgc for resto checks and things like that. Yes just lazy collectors...

I think that the main reason that people use cgc is because most comic book dealers are the stuff that you scrap off the bottomof your shoe after taking the dog for a walk. This opinion is because of the rampant overgrading that has been going on in the hobby since the first guide hit the streets. Most dealers couldnt grade their way outta of a paper bag and probably only know that overstreet is a price guide..That is why people use cgc, because you cant trust a comic book dealer. Period. Why do think that people bid on books like they are a grade lower on ebay? Because you cant trust those people. Hell look at chuck...the biggest comic book dealer of them all....He has no idea how to grade...

And before anyone gets their panties in a wad...There are some great guys out there selling comics. Plently of dealers that know how to grade and are just great people to know. However it is the bad ones that ruin it for everyone else.

Just dont tell me that I am lazy and ignorant because I buy CGC books...that is just crazy...I doubt that you think that greg is lazy and ignorant and he has the only 2 valiants with 10.0 labels...surely books bought solely because of the label.

I'll qualify my remark then, because I painted with too broad a brush, no doubt. CGC is great for the resto check, making sure you get what you pay for, etc., etc. And it's been a great thing for the hobby, I agree. And I certainly wouldn't say all slab buyers are lazy, not by a long shot.

BUT, CGC is in business to make money, not just to alleviate the concerns of comic collectors. I submit that slabbing books dumbs down the hobby so that the uninitiated (lazy, whatever you want to call them) can spend their money in the hobby where otherwise they would not. As evidence, I point to certain tweaks made to the CGC slab such as eliminating the grading verbiage on the label in favor of only a numerical grade and eliminating other grading notes that used to be on the labels. Focusing attention on the numerical grade is CGC's way of saying, 'hey look everyone, you too can be a comic book collector without needing to know what you're doing.' All of those Wizard ads showing prices with and without slabbing are directed to the unintiated as well, trying to draw their dollars into an area (high grade collecting) where they would not otherwise have been spent.

Ultimately, I believe CGC is pulling the clueless into the hobby who wouldn't otherwise have the perceived assurance to join in without the aid of CGC.

[DawgPhan]

That is true...of course they are in the business of making money..I think that the wizards ads are horrible for comics, but it is what they do. Of course with any new product...especially the kinda getting the kind of press the graded comics are getting you are going to have the knuckleheads...hopefully we will not get the same kinda thing that we got in the 90's

[Vault-Keeper]

Dawg-Phan, please don't take me the wrong way. I didn't mean that all persons who bought CGC or slabbed CGC were lazy or inexperienced. I know it's a current way of life that a CGC book equals a quick sale. My point was that buying a pre-graded book might not give a collector the same education they might have from repeated hand grading & observation of raw books.
You have to see this from my perspective. I've been collecting off & on since 1968. Up until 1995, there was no ebay. Up until 1999 there was no CGC. My experience before 1995 was to use my own judgement in grading, & dealing with people & dealers who I knew for a long time (which was my 2nd point in my earlier post). There are good dealers on ebay (like me), & there's nothing wrong with a CGC book. I would like to suggest that when you buy off someone & the deal was everything it was supposed to be, stick with that dealer beyond your initial buy. Send them your want list. Those are the long term relations you want to nurture. Those are the people who can send you a raw book, & you'll KNOW it's in the condition they state, without it having to be in a slab already. Anyone who has bought a raw book from me knows that I know how to grade. That's the assurance you want from someone you buy from.---Steve

[DawgPhan]

Your right. I have never gotten anything from you so I cant speak to your grading abilities, but it seems to me that really great comic book dealers are very rare and the worst kind are a dime a dozen. I love the idea of fostering a relationship with someone that you are going to spend money with, but many people dont have the time or inclination to do so. I hardly think that those people are lazy. Building a relationship with someone takes time. Some people dont like to spend thir time doing that. They want to spend it doing something else. Me I like digging and dealing with comics so I dont see it as wasted time, but if someone would rather spend time with their family, but would still like a nice copy of FF48 then cgc is their assurance that they will get it. It saves them time. I hardly see that as lazy. I think that you point was that cgc has lowered the cost of entering into the comic dealing business. Prior to cgc someone needed to build those relationships and have some experience grading and dealing with comics. Now all someone needs is a credit card. They bank of cgc's experience and relationships.

[Peter Parker]

WOW!!!..this post is gonna be ugly :x

Before we get to VK and Woogie...Dawg, thanks bro', nice to be back.

Where to start..lets see...?..To the two I mentioned above, your previous besotted, and incendiary commentary shows a lack of knowledge about the graded community in general. I've been collecting Comic Books for 30 yrs now, and can grade with ANYONE..period! I own over 500 CGC books and ALL are high grade (9.2-10.0)

To even insinuate that "laziness" or "ignorance" are major players in collecting CGC slabbed material is quite frankly..your OWN ignorance and bellicose position. Collectors like myself don't buy CGC books because we don't understand the nuances related to this hobby, or are just "stupid"! I buy them so I can be GUARANTEED to get what i've paid for.

This VK guy states his been involved in this hobby for 30 plus years?...really? because you sound like a neophyte quite frankly Dude, are you kidding us with the "anyone that knows how to grade will buy "raw" books, and find a dealer to help them in that quest" mantra???

You mean like say...Metropolis here in NYC? who delt with say...Nick Cage for a decade selling him hundreds of thousands of dollars with of "accurately" graded books...RAW!? Like that kind of professional relationship?..Hmmmmmmm, yeah, I got ya..like when Cage later sent them all to CGC only to find out over 30% of that "quality dealers" books were RESTORED!

My man, that is frankly an assanine statement of fantasy Newsflash Mr. Experienced...NO DEALER WORTH HIS WEIGHT SELLS RAW HG BOOKS ANYMORE, THEY HAVE THEM ALL GRADED BY CGC! and that's the proper thing to do. I have a few dealers in NYC that get me "raw" material from time to time, but for the most part they honestly tell me "B, i'll give you a good deal on the book, but i'd like to get it graded first".

Hey, no biggie, I understand, and at least i'll be satisfied to know its unrestored and graded by a 3rd party. Also for the "comics are meant to be read crowd" ...ALERT ...I've read all these books already, i'm now interested in collecting, archival, HG books, SLABBED for a MYRIAD of logical reasons you both seem to have difficulty equating

I guess..Tom Brulato, Doug Schmell, and other SERIOUS HG collectors are morons as well huh? yeah, surely so. I'm always amazed by the CGC haters consistancy of superfluous and vociferious negativity regarding this subject. They also ALWAYS tend to point out the $$$ involved in buying CGC books...why? do you have personal fiscal restraints that prevent you from buying them? That's nothing to be ashamed of, but it certainly makes people like ME read your comments to that conclusion.

There are tens of MILLIONS of dollars tied up in CGC books, and thats in personal COLLECTIONS, not the CGC books for sale on any given day. At least talk from a vantage point of learned knowledge about the subject matter, because to these trained eyes you both read like dissputatious, feckless kids I'll be happy to FURTHER assist in your edification

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Oh and glad to see you back...I hope that things have been going well..

Thanks! I've been really busy with work, but it's nice to be bac....

uh.

You weren't talking to me?

Darn.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

The CGC slab is directed toward the lazy or uninformed or novice collector/speculator. The expecation is that the label tells all you need to know in order to make an informed decision, in effect making the comic a tradeable commodity. WHY a particular book earns a particular grade is all but irrelevant, just that it IS that grade according to the label so it should be worth what other books in that grade are realizing on the open market.

Not only that....but as we have all learned, it's the NUMBER on the SLAB that makes the difference...no one cares anymore about the book INSIDE.

Otherwise, I wouldn't have a F/VF Harb #3 sold to me by Boda that has a '9.4' label on it...others have similar stories. As well, there's the dearth of 'since it was graded by CGC, you can't return it, because we all know, you're only buying the label..not the book inside.'

Once it's in that slab, baby, that # is all that matters...what happens to the book, outside of damage to the case, is irrelevant.

THAT attitude's gotta be fixed FAST.

[x-omatic]

Simply put...
I've yet to hear from a CGG/PGA supporter who doesn't live in Oregon.

At this point, it's like trying to learn about a particular sports team by
only listening to the locals. Sure... they believe they have a great team,
but what does the rest of the country think?

I think they also have an office here in AZ.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

The CGC slab is directed toward the lazy or uninformed or novice collector/speculator. The expecation is that the label tells all you need to know in order to make an informed decision, in effect making the comic a tradeable commodity. WHY a particular book earns a particular grade is all but irrelevant, just that it IS that grade according to the label so it should be worth what other books in that grade are realizing on the open market.

Not only that....but as we have all learned, it's the NUMBER on the SLAB that makes the difference...no one cares anymore about the book INSIDE.

Otherwise, I wouldn't have a F/VF Harb #3 sold to me by Boda that has a '9.4' label on it...others have similar stories. As well, there's the dearth of 'since it was graded by CGC, you can't return it, because we all know, you're only buying the label..not the book inside.'

Once it's in that slab, baby, that # is all that matters...what happens to the book, outside of damage to the case, is irrelevant.

THAT attitude's gotta be fixed FAST.

And yes, this is a very broad stroke generalization as well, obviously not everyone thinks this way, and, in fact, there's been quite a bit of backlash at CGC re: the ability of books to get damaged POST-slabbing.

People ARE concerned, but there are still quite a few buyers (and MORE than quite a few sellers) who think only in terms of the number on the slab, never once pausing to consider that, yes, in fact a book CAN become lower grade after it is slabbed.

The sad part, of course, is that it can never become HIGHER.

[x-omatic]

Dawg...

I've personally spoken to Steve Borock regarding the "pressing" issues

I also gave him my thoughts, DO NOT GO THERE!...it would be a TREMENDOUS negative towards CGC credibility...and most know i'm a major CGC supporter

He has also heard from far bigger collectors than myself advising them of the same. I believe in the end, logical heads will prevail

I think that they made a mistake doing the Wizard firsts already. Starting a "special" grading scale just for the books. Instead of 9.4 9.6 9.8 10.0, they would have 9.5 and 10.00. This leads me to asume that some "rounding up" to higher grades will happen and thus create an inflated price on a book that would be overgraded.

[x-omatic]

It's still hard for me to understand why a slabbed book brings so much more money. As a collector & grader wth 36 years of experience, it shows me how many inexperienced &/or lazy collectors there are out there.

Sure, it's easy to sell a slabbed 9.8, & say it was 'Professionally' graded. But in all seriousness, if you are that big of a comic-book collector, you should take the time to LEARN HOW TO GRADE for yourself.
Sure, it's not easy, especially for newbies or collectors who have only had experience with new books. But, like I said, if you are serious enough of a collector to fork out big bucks for a CGC book, you should be serious enough of a collector to PAINSTAKINGLY learn how to grade.

The Overstreet Grading Guide is an invaluable reference tool, second only to hands on experience.

Alot of collectors buy 'Pro' graded books off ebay, because they say most people who sell comics on ebay don't know how to grade raw books, & they don't want to be ripped off. This brings me to a valid 2nd point: Serious collectors establish lasting relationships with reputable dealers & other serious collectors. You should know (as well as you can) who you're buying from.

I don't own any slabbed books, but I can say that from what I've read & seen, CGG/PGA may not be able to get over the rep they've been given, justly or unjustly, over their past problems. If a scandal comes out about CGC, expect it to hurt them just a badly.---Steve

It doesn't have as much to do with the "buyers" grading as the sellers. It is a matter of trust. With the growing demand of online sales, CGC has made it possible for buyers to trust a grade without holding the book and grading it themselves. Even if in person not many "buyers" & "sellers" would agree on the grade. Also try to remember that a 9.4 book is NM. When you have 9.6, 9.8, 9.9, or a 10.00 these books will command more than a NM book. Guides only list up to NM. Or in overstreet NM-

[Peter Parker]

XO...

agreed, the Wizard 1st crap blows

However, I do not believe there has been a single 10.0 WF book..which is a goodthing.

Also, this idea that one buys the GRADE/SLAB and not the book is outright silly. You have zero idea how many CGC 9. whatever's i've DECLINED based on specified problems I personally had with the book/grade.

Again folks, these are PEOPLE...grading PAPER material, they cannot and will not be perfect 100% of the time. What matters is the math of their trade, if they grade 100,000 books and 2% of those are inaccurately graded...I dare ANYONE do do a better job. I have zero problem with mathematical faults of chaos, its a predictible, and inevitible factoid of life

Come on, your complaints must have better body than that?

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Grading is not difficult.

It IS, however, hard work.

Just like digging post holes....not difficult, but a hell of a lot of hard work.

Learning how to grade takes time, effort, a willingness to learn, and experience....mostly experience.

You need to look at hundreds and hundreds of thousands of books to become REALLY good at it, but you only need to look at a couple dozen to truly get the hang of it.

You have to look at the book and be willing to NOT gloss over ANY flaw, no matter how minor YOU may think it is. You have to accurately assess the cumulative effect said flaws have on the overall grade of the book. And, you have to be willing to accept that books aren't going to be NM more than 2-30% of the time, depending on the era.

99% of the fights I get into are because people aren't willing to honestly assess their books. Hell, I just got a lot described by a seller as 'great shape!' and 10 of the books were FOLDED IN HALF.

And this guy has the nerve to say 'great shape'. He explained to me that he MEANT 'not terrible shape'...to which I responded 'then you should have SAID 'not terrible shape' '.

I do my best to educate these people, and, even with the nasty fights, I daresay I have changed a few minds, and gotten more than a few people to tighten up their grading. They just need to be told, in no uncertain terms, that the reason they got $X was because they either 1. the books were in such and such condition (and they were not) or 2. failed to disclose flaws that would have negatively (and I mean that in the strictest mathematical sense) affected the final bid price, which REALLY should have been $X-$Y=$Z, where X is the amount the obtained, and Z is the price they FAIRLY SHOULD have obtained, had they not done either 1. or 2. or both, and Y being the difference between the two.

But I can't do it alone. I can't tell you how many times I've had to deal with the 'well, you're the ONLY person who's ever had a problem with my grading' (as if that someone makes the problem irrelevant.) That's because no one ELSE is willing to say anything at all, and until that changes, this will keep going on.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Also, this idea that one buys the GRADE/SLAB and not the book is outright silly. You have zero idea how many CGC 9. whatever's i've DECLINED based on specified problems I personally had with the book/grade.

No, in fact, there are people who 'just buy the grade'. 99% of all sellers currently 'just sell the grade', as you can see with the absolute DEARTH of 'since this was CGC graded, no returns allowed!'..the implication, of course, being that once CGC has slabbed it, it's THAT grade, forever and always, so there, regardless of whether 1. CGC blew it on the grade, or 2. the book was damaged POST-slabbing.

You have to concede, PP, that books are not only occasionally inaccurately graded...but that, in fact, some books have been damaged...and thus lowered grade...AFTER slabbing.

You don't do it...I don't do it...but there are lots and lots of buyers who DO buy 'just the grade', and think that 'just because it's slabbed, that protects the book from further damage forever'...if they even GET that far.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Allow me to perhaps be a bridge builder (who, me?), and maybe clarify (or mudify, who knows?) what everyone is saying.

Mr. Woo is NOT saying that ALL people who deal with/in CGC books are lazy and/or uninititiated, simply that CGC ALLOWS those people who ARE lazy and/or uninitiated the chance to purchase something that they can be pretty darn sure is actually going to be high grade.

The lazy and/or unititiated being merely PART (and a small one, at that) of the people who deal with/in CGC books (including myself.)

Fair enough?