CGC out of hand

depluto · Post by **depluto** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 12:14 am

It was a boon for me, since I buy most of my older Marvel comics at shows. The real money in comics is being paid for high-end CGC stuff, and the fair-to-middlin' stuff is languishing.

If a comic looks pretty good to me, I'll buy it for my collection even with some crinkles and dents. And if I can get an old FF for $3 or $4, that's cool. And I'll read the *SQUEE*, too.

But that's just with the old Marvels. I'll always pay attention to condition when buying Valiants or anything else from the last 15 years.

shaxper · Post by **shaxper** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 12:17 am

Yes, but does the difference between 9.4 and 10.0 really bug you unless you see it stamped on a CGC sleeve? Personally, there are some comics that I'm happy to have just with a cover attached and no major tears, and there are issues that I want NM, but paying extra for a 10.0 just seems absurd to me. Really, how much would the difference between 9.4 and 10.0 bother someone if they weren't specifically looking for it?

*Edit: in rereading this, it sounds like I'm accusing you of obsessing over CGC ratings, which I'm not. I think we see things in a similar light, and I'm just asking whether you agree. Sorry if that was confusing.*

depluto · Post by **depluto** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 12:31 am

I just want my comics to look nice. They don't have to be flawless, though.

I'd love to have a 10.0 comic, if I could buy it on the cheap or trade something for it. That's the kind of thing you could whip out to show off ... assuming your friends are geeks (I'm not ashamed to say I am; my wife knew this when she married me, too).

To me, 9.6 is the dividing line. Anything 9.6 or higher is spectacular. Not that this means a thing to my collecting habits, but there you are.

shaxper · Post by **shaxper** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 12:37 am

Makes sense.

I guess I generally don't accept below VF, but aim for NM-. Beyond that, it really makes absolutely no difference to me. When I was looking to complete my modern age X-Men run, I bought a run of twenty issues with dates stamped on the cover, because they were absurdly cheap. Yeah, they're minor eye sores, but they don't prevent my ability to enjoy the comic in any substantial way. I got another run of fifteen with price stickers stuck to the back cover. Now that REALLY didn't bother me, since none of them were gatefolds. It was just an advertisement.

When I collected my Silver Age X-Men run, though, I accepted a lot of junk. Everything had a cover attached and pages intact, but my standards were low, beyond that. In some cases, the condition definitely diminishes my enjoyment of the comic slightly, but my lower standards allowed me to get a full run of silver age X-Men issues, whereas I would have been able to afford a fraction of them in better conditions.

depluto · Post by **depluto** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 12:41 am

That sounds like me!

I've got some great old comics that are pretty dinged up; I have no interest in replacing them, since I already have that box checked.

New comics are $2-3, and I buy a couple or few each week. But I won't pass up a 35-year-old Iron Man for the same price, even if it has been around the block. There's a limit of course, but everybody draws the line in a different place.

shaxper · Post by **shaxper** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 12:42 am

My long-lost twin brother, where have you been?!

depluto · Post by **depluto** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 12:48 am

If you're my twin, I feel for ya.

I'm the one on the right:

shaxper · Post by **shaxper** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 12:50 am

Definitely better than being the one on the left

Of course, we do both have goutees:

x-omatic · Post by **x-omatic** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 1:00 am

shaxper wrote:
depluto wrote:
shaxper wrote:But I'm still concerned about this "perfect 10" phenomenon. I'm afraid its taking the focus entirely away from the intrinsic value of having a particular issue, and making it all about a condition most of us couldn't evaluate with our own eyes.
Nothing to be concerned about (I've enjoyed reading your posts, BTW).

Some people might collect Valiants for reading purposes, some might want a full set (that would be me), and some might want a nice set of 9.8s. We're all collecting, we're just collecting slightly different things.

There are so many comics on Ebay that are barely worth cover price that sell for much, much more once they are in the slab. So some folks are clearly just going for the CGC grade. There's one dude I've noticed that bids on just about anything that's 9.8, no matter what the comic is.

If it works for them, fine.

Thanks for the nice compliment. I appreciate it.

I guess it's just a matter of whether ebay prices affect the market. Obviously, Overstreet could care less what happens on ebay, but ebay prices could affect how dealers price and collectors pay, which would, in turn, affect Overstreet. Naturally, the trend has to be pretty big to have that kind of impact, but with so few perfect 10s, it wouldn't really have to be that many to set a precedent.

Incidentally, your avatar is making me hungry...

Overstreet has a CGC guide and market report that comes out every other month.

soundoftheuniverse · Post by **soundoftheuniverse** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 1:05 am

Greg great point on the Confidence factor in bidding. I'm sure we all think of it when we bid but it's good to see it in print and explained so we can better understand why it is we bid the way we do.

Take Walter Wang for example. He's a great Ebayer and has my confidence because when I win I know exactly what to expect when I open the package a few days later. NO SURPRISES. So I generally will go after his stuff first and bid to win. Other guys I'll bid but I may not be as confident in their shipping / grading so I bid low.

I think NO SURPRISES is really the reason why I buy graded books more now. I've only had 2 bad CGC surprises YTD. Ungraded books through ebay I'm pretty sure I'd have at least 1 or 2 a week. Since I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, enjoy NOT being surprised when I open a funny book parcel I go with what makes me happy.

CGC, CGG, 3PG, PSA. They're all better than buying raw off ebay IMO, unless you have confidence that an ungraded auction win will be shipped properly and arrive as described. I've found that high grade funny book collecting is a crap shoot unless you're either really lucky or have high confidence in their word.

Like if I buy another Harbinger 1 described as being in NM perfect condition that arrives at my door with spine tears and creases I'm going postal. It's INFURIATING. When I see the damage my heart falls and it gets to me. Weird huh? I don't get it, I don't like being lied to. Go figure.

shaxper · Post by **shaxper** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 1:11 am

I totally hear you on that. I get very frusterated when an issue is way off on its promises grade. But I still don't see the point in paying 5x the issue's value to guarentee its condition. If you buy five non-CGCed copies of the same issue from five different sellers, one's bound to be properly graded, and you've got four spares (which may or may not be near the promised grade). Why would a CGCed copy be a better way to spend that money? When I get lied to, I leave a neg feedback, buy another copy, and still end up ahead of the cost of CGCing, provided that one of the next four copies is accurately described in the listing.

shaxper · Post by **shaxper** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 1:13 am

x-omatic wrote: Overstreet has a CGC guide and market report that comes out every other month.

No, I understand that. I meant ebay auctions affecting Overstreet's value of specific CGC conditions, not ebay auctions affecting whether Overstreet gives consideration to CGC conditions at all.

Thanks, though.

soundoftheuniverse · Post by **soundoftheuniverse** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 1:30 am

I recently won a Rai 3 centered CGC 9.8 for a shade over $100. I think this is a great price. I'd pay it again.

I can't help how others perceive things I just try to focus on what's important to me and collect accordingly.

Any of you ever lose money in Vegas or got tagged with a hefty fine? Well in the past 2 years whenever I lost money on something *SQUEE* I ALWAY thought to myself. DAMN, I could have owned $X worth of Valiants instead of this loss. So now I just drive safer, don't gamble and spend that money on Valiants.

Eric Jackson · Post by **Eric Jackson** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 1:32 am

soundoftheuniverse wrote: So now I just drive safer, don't gamble and spend that money on Valiants.

wow.. i think the same thing every time i eat!

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:16 am

Crap...I go to a party in the Hollywood Hills and you all have a crapfest.

AND I missed all the juicy stuff already edited by Greg.

Sigh.

ZWH <--hates missing fights.

depluto · Post by **depluto** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 7:03 am

I caught the last hour of it while I was at work. Greg was deleting posts within seconds of them going up.

I was hammering that refresh key, though. Think I caught most of it.

Vault-Keeper · Post by **Vault-Keeper** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 9:35 am

depluto wrote:I caught the last hour of it while I was at work. Greg was deleting posts within seconds of them going up.

I was hammering that refresh key, though. Think I caught most of it.

I caught the last of it in real time. Send me a PM of what I missed!

I'm just glad it wasn't me, as PP went off on me about CGC the day before on the 'CGC vs PGA' thread, & then never responded to my last post.

---Steve

MedicAR · Post by **MedicAR** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 9:58 am

Djk300 wrote:Now for other older books I might want the third party grading system like the other people mention for golden age and other key issues.

I have to disagree here. CGC seems to allow more defects in a Golden Age book than a Modern. The last time I read the grading standards, they were the same regardless of when the book was printed.

In addition, (I actually did this at the last convention I attended) put 9.6, a 9.8, and a 10 beside each other and point out the differences. The dealer himself pointed out that he didn't see enough changes in the three books to make them any different grades, but that's how they came back from CGC. All had perfect spines, the 9.8 had a bit of a corner problem, making it a bit of a mystery, as that one item made it look worse than the 9.8. There were no notations as to what changed the grade, only "White Pages." I think (strictly my opinion from my observations) when you're nitpicking about these grades, it depends on the grader's mood that day. I know there's a consensus and three people grade the book, but if one is having a bad day or is sick of grading Origin #1 that it could effect the final outcome. 10.0, 10.0, and 9.4 averages out to 9.8

At any rate, I stand by my original point. Fine condition is fine condition whether the sleazy dealer on the street corner has the book or the high dollar gallery has it. Fine condition is worth $X whether it is in a chunk of plastic or raw. I can't now, nor am I likely to ever be able to see paying large percentages over guide for a slabed book. I really can't even justify paying the extra cost of the grading, the seller is the one who decided to grade it, let him eat that cost, as the book is still in the same condition! We all have quirks in grading, but I've always been able to come to a consensus when dealing. I'll pay what I'll pay, the dealer wants what he wants, and if we can't meet in the middle, I'll move on until I find someone who will.

MedicAR · Post by **MedicAR** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 10:08 am

depluto wrote:I just want my comics to look nice. They don't have to be flawless, though.

And THAT'S the bottom line!

Buy what makes you happy! I could never see paying for a Hummer when my Chevy 4x4 will do everything I will ever need it to do. I tdoesn't have the prestige, but it makes me darned happy!

CGC seems silly to me, but I have to agree that it is here to stay. I'm not a big fan of death or taxes either, but I can't avoid them.

Peter Parker · Post by **Peter Parker** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 11:04 am

I'm biting my lip and not responding further to this post

Although, i must say...ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh fuhgitaboutit!!!

greg · Post by **greg** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:50 pm

shaxper wrote:But I still don't see the point in paying 5x the issue's value to guarentee its condition.

I agree, it can be ridiculous to "pay the premium" for CGC.
But 5x isn't always necessary to guarantee a nice condition book...

Average price for a "raw" Magnus #12? About $20.

Price for a "guaranteed" 9.6? $17.50.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 2289726826

shaxper · Post by **shaxper** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:55 pm

greg wrote:
shaxper wrote:But I still don't see the point in paying 5x the issue's value to guarentee its condition.
I agree, it can be ridiculous to "pay the premium" for CGC.
But 5x isn't always necessary to guarantee a nice condition book...

Average price for a "raw" Magnus #12? About $20.

Price for a "guaranteed" 9.6? $17.50.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 2289726826

Granted, in those situations, it would definately make sense to grab one

(though I'd remove mine from the case when it arrived, unless I planned to resell it)

Incidentally, nice find!

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:59 pm

shaxper wrote:Nice point. I hadn't considered that.

Okay, so this guy may well have had ulterior motives.

But I'm still concerned about this "perfect 10" phenomenon. I'm afraid its taking the focus entirely away from the intrinsic value of having a particular issue, and making it all about a condition most of us couldn't evaluate with our own eyes.

Finding....or, rather, not finding...10.0's is easy. It's really not that difficult. Look at every square cm of the book. If you see a flaw, any flaw, it's not a 10.0.

9.6....that's a whole different story.

shaxper · Post by **shaxper** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:02 pm

Now here's a rare circumstance where I would definitely want a CGCed copy.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 2290575727

Too frequently counterfeited and damaged in odd ways to take the chance on such a pricey issue.

Still, I doubt I'd pay 2x its value for such confidence. I'd probably just educate myself and go to shows, or buy a plane ticket for $200 to fly over and inspect the issue in person.

Peter Parker · Post by **Peter Parker** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:29 pm

Ya know...I find some of these comments about paying multiples of guide incredulous

If the market itself is willing to pay (X) times guide for a specific book, why would any collector have a problem with it? It really makes no tangible sense

For example, its now 3 years since I paid $1,100.00 for my Batman# 232 CGC 9.8 I was offered $2,500.00 for it last week

Think that was a good purchase? I paid roughly 7 times "Guide" for it THEN...do you believe that like a fairy tale the price is going to drop overnight on this book? Wanna bet on it? It never will, I will stand in the land of profit for perpetuity.

My point is, collectors NEED to stop focusing on the "guide" i.e. Overstreet and start RE-focusing on the MARKET itself. Overstreet has recently taken the NM 9.4 grade OUT OF THE BOOK...know why? because GRADED CGC 9.4 books were extremely volatile, and it was difficult for sellers and buyers to strap down an "average". Overstreet (in an agreed deal with CGC) capitulated, gave in to the pressure.

They also accepted Fishlers 10 point scale as a grading apparatus (weren't they an impartial body? a tool of conventional industry wisdom?) THEY SOLD OUT...for MONEY

PLEASE, stop with the "guide" references..its no longer what it was. The actual market itself is what truly dictates price and rarity today.

So in conclusion, if YOU, the buyer, don't want to pay multiples of guide for graded books..well, fine..more for me

However, don't be so naive to think "guide" is the standard anymore, because it is not folks, for all intents and purposes..the guide is obsolete!!!

Chew on that for a bit