What Marvel Comics needs to do

[Sven the Returned]

I kind of think that companies like Marvel & DC are almost permanently broken, as they have essentially de-volved into corporate marketing platforms that only exist as pale reflections of whatever is being done with the character IP's in other media. I don't even just mean the movies - a lot of these characters are beyond stagnant because they are primarily used to sell other licensed products.

I say that having a little glimpse behind the curtain as an artist, with several professional artist friends (including my wife). I can't say anything more specific than that as either myself, my wife and/or my friends are bound by NDA contracts, but there is a practical reality to the business side of the industry that does taint the creative side of it.

I think it's actually great that they are trying to update the characters to appeal to other minority group fans, but it would have been nice if they didn't break down the original versions of the characters to achieve it. Riri as Ironheart as a separate new spin on an old character is a great way to go as an example, but it would also be great if they could just cone up with more entirely new characters.

I'm sure that even within the corporate IP marketing constraints there are good stories being told by talented people. Honestly though, I don't read anything by the big 2 anymore, so I can't really comment on the newer books in the last 4 years or so.

Here's an interesting article I stumbled across recently about Marvel's treatment of continuity over its long history - some bias in there but good food for thought too;

http://zak-site.com/Great-American-Nove ... verse.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What an great article that was! Speaks so much to what is going wrong with both Marvel & DC both lately. And to how Valiant can hopefully do better as time goes on, IF they can keep time moving, keep the continuity tight, and not fall into the 'rebooting everything' trap more than they already have.

I believe it when i see it. I have no clue why this market acts the way it does.

[TheeBaldMoose]

I wonder if Marvel and DC can learn anything from the Star Wars purchasing and how careful Disney was in making its cannon. Disney really took great care in creating a timeline that not only fit the things they thought were important, they did the unpopular thing of cutting stuff that some fans really thought was cannon.

Even their new comic books are cannon, cutting out much of the older comics and scrapping them (still, some good comics). This is how we found out Han Solo was married, why Lea was mad at him in Empire Strikes Back, etc. This was a carefully crafted, well thought out process that has only made their franchise better. Star Wars is now more popular than ever, and I wonder just how well their comic sales have been...

Disney has hit two movies, back to back, out of the park. If their comic books have been well received, then maybe this IS the model they should follow. Build upon a proper timeline (regardless of the world it takes place in), and be true to your brand, which will keep fans true to the brand as well.

[Phoenix8008]

I wonder if Marvel and DC can learn anything from the Star Wars purchasing and how careful Disney was in making its cannon. Disney really took great care in creating a timeline that not only fit the things they thought were important, they did the unpopular thing of cutting stuff that some fans really thought was cannon.

Even their new comic books are cannon, cutting out much of the older comics and scrapping them (still, some good comics). This is how we found out Han Solo was married, why Lea was mad at him in Empire Strikes Back, etc. This was a carefully crafted, well thought out process that has only made their franchise better. Star Wars is now more popular than ever, and I wonder just how well their comic sales have been...

Disney has hit two movies, back to back, out of the park. If their comic books have been well received, then maybe this IS the model they should follow. Build upon a proper timeline (regardless of the world it takes place in), and be true to your brand, which will keep fans true to the brand as well.

I'm one of those fans of the Star Wars "Expanded Universe" which got erased after Disney bought Star Wars. While I can agree that it may well be in the best interest of the franchise in the long run, I would pick nits with a couple of your statements:

1. Most fans of the Expanded Universe were painfully aware that it wasn't actually cannon. It was pointed out many times over the years that only the movies were cannon (at that time).

2. The Expanded Universe was also a carefully crafted and controlled specimen. While it wasn't cannon, there was actual oversight from Lucasfilm controlling what was 'cannon' within the EU itself. They had an overall editor (or editors) that rode herd on the continuity of the line to keep it internally consistent with itself and to make sure that it did not contradict the movies themselves anywhere.

Due to this, I collected and absorbed the growing Star Wars universe over the span of a couple decades (not unlike people collecting Marvel in the Silver Age perhaps), and it all fit nicely and neatly together and all made sense. It had great continuity. It became MY Star Wars Universe. Now, like Marvel's latest Secret Wars, or DC's Rebirth, the Star Wars universe I had followed has been retconned and undone.

Sadly, I've never been more 'out' on Star Wars in my life than I am right now. I saw Ep VII, and regretted it. I haven't seen Rogue One yet (maybe I'll spend $1.50 to see it once it hits Redbox), even though I'm more interested in that one than in Force Awakens or VIII. So if Star Wars is more popular and has more fans now than before, good for them. They have effectively gained minus one fan from me.

[Phoenix8008]

Build upon a proper timeline (regardless of the world it takes place in), and be true to your brand, which will keep fans true to the brand as well.

Sorry, just noticed another point I wanted to bring up. Building upon a proper timeline is all good. I'm all for continuity. Being true to the brand is easier to do THE FIRST TIME THROUGH. Once you've rebooted the universe once or more, then you've already been untrue to those fans you worked on acquiring and keeping the first time through. Disney can be as true to the Star Wars brand as they want - starting from when they took over - but they can't be true to MY Star Wars universe which they had to erase in order to make their new toy to play with.

In fact, that points to the same core reason that all the universe reboots end up happening. Continuity is great, until you get so much of it that someone new or lazy just doesn't want to work hard enough within the boundaries of the existing continuity to keep in in place. At that point they reboot and loose some fans (and some credibility) in order to start fresh with the new #1's for a new crowd.

[dornwolf]

I wonder if Marvel and DC can learn anything from the Star Wars purchasing and how careful Disney was in making its cannon. Disney really took great care in creating a timeline that not only fit the things they thought were important, they did the unpopular thing of cutting stuff that some fans really thought was cannon.

Even their new comic books are cannon, cutting out much of the older comics and scrapping them (still, some good comics). This is how we found out Han Solo was married, why Lea was mad at him in Empire Strikes Back, etc. This was a carefully crafted, well thought out process that has only made their franchise better. Star Wars is now more popular than ever, and I wonder just how well their comic sales have been...

Disney has hit two movies, back to back, out of the park. If their comic books have been well received, then maybe this IS the model they should follow. Build upon a proper timeline (regardless of the world it takes place in), and be true to your brand, which will keep fans true to the brand as well.

I'm one of those fans of the Star Wars "Expanded Universe" which got erased after Disney bought Star Wars. While I can agree that it may well be in the best interest of the franchise in the long run, I would pick nits with a couple of your statements:

1. Most fans of the Expanded Universe were painfully aware that it wasn't actually cannon. It was pointed out many times over the years that only the movies were cannon (at that time).

2. The Expanded Universe was also a carefully crafted and controlled specimen. While it wasn't cannon, there was actual oversight from Lucasfilm controlling what was 'cannon' within the EU itself. They had an overall editor (or editors) that rode herd on the continuity of the line to keep it internally consistent with itself and to make sure that it did not contradict the movies themselves anywhere.

Due to this, I collected and absorbed the growing Star Wars universe over the span of a couple decades (not unlike people collecting Marvel in the Silver Age perhaps), and it all fit nicely and neatly together and all made sense. It had great continuity. It became MY Star Wars Universe. Now, like Marvel's latest Secret Wars, or DC's Rebirth, the Star Wars universe I had followed has been retconned and undone.

Sadly, I've never been more 'out' on Star Wars in my life than I am right now. I saw Ep VII, and regretted it. I haven't seen Rogue One yet (maybe I'll spend $1.50 to see it once it hits Redbox), even though I'm more interested in that one than in Force Awakens or VIII. So if Star Wars is more popular and has more fans now than before, good for them. They have effectively gained minus one fan from me.

Erased is putting it nicely. The thing that really gets my craw is that everyone writing articles about how awesome it is now. I've yet to see to many glowing thoughts on anything new Star Wars. And since it's now even more controlled there's less of a chance something new and unique comes out of it.

[Cyberstrike]

The only things out of the Star Wars Expanded Universe that I liked was both of the Star Wars: Dark Empire mini-series and the first Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic video game which is better than all of the movies put together.

The ending to the Dark Empire storyline a lousy 2 part series called Star Wars: Empire's End was IMHO a major let down.

[Phoenix8008]

Another thing Marvel might try is... the truth. According to my LCS owner, Marvel titles have been selling horribly for months now. The extra issues and shipping late on the latest big Civil War II event were just gross icing on the crud cake that has been Marvel's recent sales, to hear him tell it. He told me last week that Marvel has just started something new - shipping more issues than he's ordered for some of the titles. Like if he ordered 10 copies of Avengers, he might get 25, and the extra 15 were just free. Like Marvel can use that to pad it's numbers of comics 'shipped' through Diamond, even though it has nothing to do with the number of comics actually sold. He's talking about reducing the number of all Marvel titles he orders down to or maybe 5 each, so that he doesn't have as much overstock to worry about storing later when nobody buys the issues.

[grendeljd]

Another thing Marvel might try is... the truth. According to my LCS owner, Marvel titles have been selling horribly for months now. The extra issues and shipping late on the latest big Civil War II event were just gross icing on the crud cake that has been Marvel's recent sales, to hear him tell it. He told me last week that Marvel has just started something new - shipping more issues than he's ordered for some of the titles. Like if he ordered 10 copies of Avengers, he might get 25, and the extra 15 were just free. Like Marvel can use that to pad it's numbers of comics 'shipped' through Diamond, even though it has nothing to do with the number of comics actually sold. He's talking about reducing the number of all Marvel titles he orders down to or maybe 5 each, so that he doesn't have as much overstock to worry about storing later when nobody buys the issues.

Wow - that's bad!

Sounds like that article shared in the Fall Of Comics thread wasn't entirely hyperbole then - people are just fed up with whatever Marvel is doing right now. It's a shame that more comic fans won't try out something other than superhero shared universe type books... It's not the only game in comics, and in the last 15~20 years there has been so much positive growth in "indie" or creator owned series.

[greg]

Catching up on some reading here, I may be nitpicking, but there are lots of valid points about what is canon in storylines, but for some reason it is being spelled 'cannon'. That goes boom on a battlefield and isn't the right word.

'Canon' is the correct word for storylines. While it is the internet and people still get the point, misspellings always make otherwise strong arguments week.

[myron]

Catching up on some reading here, I may be nitpicking, but there are lots of valid points about what is canon in storylines, but for some reason it is being spelled 'cannon'. That goes boom on a battlefield and isn't the right word.

'Canon' is the correct word for storylines. While it is the internet and people still get the point, misspellings always make otherwise strong arguments week.

Dew knot trussed you're spell chequer.

[QUARTZ]

The ending to the Dark Empire storyline a lousy 2 part series called Star Wars: Empire's End was IMHO a major let down.

I loved Dark Empire, that really struck when interest in Star Wars seemed to be at a real low. The ending was a disappointment, but I believe they were cut short. Cam Kennedy's art in the rest of the series was stellar, should have never replaced him. I loved how they came out in that bigger format like 2000AD and were paired with the Adventures of Indiana Jones. I loved the Boba Fett one shots as well. I loved Star Wars at Dark Horse and really hate that Marvel took it over. It's been okay, I like it so far, just felt like Dark Horse was more daring with their stories.

Right now the only Marvel title I am getting besides Star Wars is Deadpool. I'm much more into Valiant and Dark Horse and Image.

The only suggestion I have for Marvel is to simply come out with better comics. Vision and Karnak were awesome, but Karnak dropped the ball with the severely delayed schedule and Vision was limited. They need to make more adult-esque comics, I feel like they are very kiddy oriented. And drop the stupid events.

[ShadowTuga]

As someone who got into comics BIG due to the HoI in the early 80s, I don't recognise the company.
Marvel was once cool af, and something that only comic book readers cared. I can hardly believe that Iron Man is what it is today- a cultural icon, almost. This character was virtually unknown outside of the comic book fandom- jeez, I remember picking up a printed IM hoodie (no thing as official merch att) because it showed the world I was a serious comic book fan. Everyone knew Batman and the X-Men and Spidey- but Tony Stark? I remember my friends asking me "WTF is that"? having no idea about the character. Wow, how this has changed.

Today, kids can buy IM masks, Thor's Mjolnir, Hulk's hands, Wolverine's claws, Cap's shield, etc, etc, in any toy store.
I don't think they need to do anything in that aspect. They were never this BIG.

As for the content of the books- I stopped caring about this company in 2012, after NOW was announced. I will not forget the years just before that, with Gillen's X-Men, Remender's X-Force and Aaron's W&TXM- all excellent readings, that were only mediocre whenever we had crossovers. But these books were awesome and I hadf a ball reading threm.

Now, in 2016, I just don't care about their books. I see the movies and the Netflix shows, but my interest in Marvel stops there. Last series I picked (non SW) was Ellis' Moon Knight. I was out by issue 6, because there was another starting point in the near future (new series, new #1) and as cool as this series was, it had nothiung to do with the Marvel that I know. Much more arty and indie feel. Cool, but I rather see Spector joining forces with DD.

They are in a great position, even if the books sell bad. The big money is not there, anymore.
My 2 cents.

[Tim]

I saw Ep VII, and regretted it.

+1. I didn't need a movie or comics or anything else to tell me what happened after Return of the Jedi. I know what happened because I MADE it happen with my action figures in my backyard. That's MY canon and the new movies are just big budget fanfic that I could care less about.

[Sven the Returned]

I saw Ep VII, and regretted it.

+1. I didn't need a movie or comics or anything else to tell me what happened after Return of the Jedi. I know what happened because I MADE it happen with my action figures in my backyard. That's MY canon and the new movies are just big budget fanfic that I could care less about.

No matter who is making them?

[Tim]

No matter who is making them.

[Sven the Returned]

No matter who is making them.

[Tim]

Of course it could. And it is. And I'm glad people are enjoying it. But my enjoyment of things from my childhood (Star Wars, comics, etc) has turned into more of a participatory engagement and dialog with my own past than an interest in new material. I am interested not so much in having my childhood fed back to me, as I am reflecting on things that resonated with me then then to get a better understanding of myself now. Companies are making HUGE money right now on nostalgia and I think it's exploitative and manipulative, but they have every right to do so as for profit companies. I'm just not interested in playing ball.

I have my own Star Wars canon. I have my own concept of what comics I deem canon. I set my own parameters for my enjoyment of media and I just don't respond to most new stuff and generally feel no need to engage with it.

[dornwolf]

Don't know if we've covered this one. How about not launching from one event to another.
http://io9.gizmodo.com/marvel-is-alread ... 1790914751" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Cyberstrike]

Don't know if we've covered this one. How about not launching from one event to another.
http://io9.gizmodo.com/marvel-is-alread ... 1790914751" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That is part of my number one even though I don't think I expressed it right. It's called event fatigue, and ironically IIRC Marvel head honcho Joe Quasada even coined the term.

[dornwolf]

Don't know if we've covered this one. How about not launching from one event to another.
http://io9.gizmodo.com/marvel-is-alread ... 1790914751" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That is part of my number one even though I don't think I expressed it right. It's called event fatigue, and ironically IIRC Marvel head honcho Joe Quasada even coined the term.

Ah yes I see that now. Either way it needs to be brought up and point out...again and again

[Cyberstrike]

Don't know if we've covered this one. How about not launching from one event to another.
http://io9.gizmodo.com/marvel-is-alread ... 1790914751" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That is part of my number one even though I don't think I expressed it right. It's called event fatigue, and ironically IIRC Marvel head honcho Joe Quasada even coined the term.

Ah yes I see that now. Either way it needs to be brought up and point out...again and again

I remember when Marvel crossovers were fun like Maximum Carnage and Operation: Galactic Storm because they were comic book event of a big summer movie. Now they're doing 3 or more at the same time and one or two months later you got another one that leads into another one that leads into 2 more and none of them are fun, cool, or even remotely important in the grand comic book Marvel Universe for 2 weeks.

[QUARTZ]

I have another suggestion that would get me reading more Marvel immediately....

BRING BACK THE MAX IMPRINT! Those Punisher comics were awesome back in the day and sold well according to my comic shop. They need more mature titles. Better than pandering to new kiddy readers that don't care, would rather play video games.

[Phoenix8008]

I have another suggestion that would get me reading more Marvel immediately....

BRING BACK THE MAX IMPRINT! Those Punisher comics were awesome back in the day and sold well according to my comic shop. They need more mature titles. Better than pandering to new kiddy readers that don't care, would rather play video games.

That would be cool I guess, but just another imprint, another fracture off the main universe wouldn't do it for me. I would love to see them undo what they did years ago as explained in the article upthread: Get rid of the time freeze on all the characters and just deal with the continuity. Which partly means to let things actually CONTINUE. Stop rebooting everything all the time. The titles AND the universe itself. I probably wouldn't be happy without a revert to the original universe and it's continuity actually continuing. And they're not gonna do that, so I figure I'm just done with Marvel 99% of the way at least. I'd rather see the NEW UNIVERSE restarted. But I'll probably just keep reading my Valiant.

[maraxusofkeld]

They need some actual editorial direction as to what they want to accomplish within the company as far as the actual comic books themselves. It seems that the books are just being used as a hype for upcoming movies instead of being used to tell stories and entertain people in that manner.

[Cyberstrike]

They need some actual editorial direction as to what they want to accomplish within the company as far as the actual comic books themselves. It seems that the books are just being used as a hype for upcoming movies instead of being used to tell stories and entertain people in that manner.

My guess is that are very few people who see the movies and TV shows are going to read the comics and most of them won't stick around long enough because of the confusing mess that Marvel and DC have made of their comic book universes and trying to make them more like the movies and TV shows only drives away old readers and new readers are lost in a 75+ year multiverse with so many changes that they would be spending more time reading wikas and/or Youtube videos trying to explain this nonsense than actually reading the comics.