CGC ?'s

X-O HoboJoe · Post by **X-O HoboJoe** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 10:38 am

Anymore news on this? Been thinking about it and if someone found a way around the trimming resto-check, I can't see it as being CGC's fault. Some may consider it a chink in their armor but historically there are tons of frauds that have been perpetrated with the specific intent of fooling the experts. Can't think of one instance where the expert who got hoodwinked was arrested along with the crook. Unless they were somehow in on it, which would be tantamount to suicide for CGC -- Think about what the mere suggestion of the christina's collectibles/PGX scandal did to that company.

DawgPhan · Post by **DawgPhan** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 10:46 am

X-O HoboJoe wrote:Anymore news on this? Been thinking about it and if someone found a way around the trimming resto-check, I can't see it as being CGC's fault. Some may consider it a chink in their armor but historically there are tons of frauds that have been perpetrated with the specific intent of fooling the experts. Can't think of one instance where the expert who got hoodwinked was arrested along with the crook. Unless they were somehow in on it, which would be tantamount to suicide for CGC -- Think about what the mere suggestion of the christina's collectibles/PGX scandal did to that company.

Umm lets see...CGC bought the book from Bob. Jason Ewert, said he bought the book that way with no knowledge of the trimming. A name came out as the person that could possibly have done the trimming, but no one knows for sure last I heard. The real questions is what will cgc be doing to stop this. They made this particular transaction right, but how can they stop it?

X-O HoboJoe · Post by **X-O HoboJoe** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 10:53 am

Honestly? To the best of my current knowledge, there is no way to catch all triming at this time without doing damage to the book. I can think of one way that might work, but CGC (or any other 3rd party grader) doesn't have the equiptment at this time to do it. I guess I need to get out some old reader copies and a pair of scissors, then do some before/after comparisons here at work. If it works, I'll let Greg tell CGC the need a $20K microscope to do it.

mrwoogieman · Post by **mrwoogieman** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 10:54 am

But if it erodes the public's confidence in the product, it will become CGC's problem from a bottom line point of view. One of CGC's biggest selling points is the restoration check it performs on each book. Now to hear that CGC can't accurately determine certain subtle trim jobs undermines one of their key selling points.

A loss of confidence in the product is inevitable. Hell, in one sense, a loss of confidence in the product could be a good thing if it gets people less label-centric in their collecting and reduces the price differential in the ultra-high grade market when it's based upon nothing more than .2 variances in assigned grades, oftentimes seemingly without regard to the condition and appearance of the book.

X-O HoboJoe · Post by **X-O HoboJoe** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:27 am

mrwoogieman wrote:But if it erodes the public's confidence in the product, it will become CGC's problem from a bottom line point of view. One of CGC's biggest selling points is the restoration check it performs on each book. Now to hear that CGC can't accurately determine certain subtle trim jobs undermines one of their key selling points.

I agree. It seems like it's already becoming a problem for CGC. I seriously doubt the topic will just disappear, given all the "Slab-haters" that seem to be out there. Remembering that the whole process is still a judgment call and subject to human error seems to escape some of the people out there. If CGC can keep it to an acceptable minimum, maybe they can afford to buy up any mistakes they make.

mrwoogieman wrote:A loss of confidence in the product is inevitable. Hell, in one sense, a loss of confidence in the product could be a good thing if it gets people less label-centric in their collecting and reduces the price differential in the ultra-high grade market when it's based upon nothing more than .2 variances in assigned grades, oftentimes seemingly without regard to the condition and appearance of the book.

I've thought that as long as this wasn't the only type of collector out there then the back-issue market was better off with more diversity of collectors than less. As long as it doesn't swing too far either way we should be cool. For every "9.8 only guy" there should be a "vg just to have 'em" guy, IMO.

DawgPhan · Post by **DawgPhan** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:40 am

X-O HoboJoe wrote:
mrwoogieman wrote:But if it erodes the public's confidence in the product, it will become CGC's problem from a bottom line point of view. One of CGC's biggest selling points is the restoration check it performs on each book. Now to hear that CGC can't accurately determine certain subtle trim jobs undermines one of their key selling points.
I agree. It seems like it's already becoming a problem for CGC. I seriously doubt the topic will just disappear, given all the "Slab-haters" that seem to be out there. Remembering that the whole process is still a judgment call and subject to human error seems to escape some of the people out there. If CGC can keep it to an acceptable minimum, maybe they can afford to buy up any mistakes they make.

mrwoogieman wrote:A loss of confidence in the product is inevitable. Hell, in one sense, a loss of confidence in the product could be a good thing if it gets people less label-centric in their collecting and reduces the price differential in the ultra-high grade market when it's based upon nothing more than .2 variances in assigned grades, oftentimes seemingly without regard to the condition and appearance of the book.
I've thought that as long as this wasn't the only type of collector out there then the back-issue market was better off with more diversity of collectors than less. As long as it doesn't swing too far either way we should be cool. For every "9.8 only guy" there should be a "vg just to have 'em" guy, IMO.

The problem with CGC is that they give on opinoin on the grading, but the restoration is supposed to be a statement of fact. No color touch is a fact, this book is a 9.8 is an opinion..we pay for both when you get something slabbed, but one is either true or it isnt...you pay for that information.

X-O HoboJoe · Post by **X-O HoboJoe** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:54 am

DawgPhan wrote:
X-O HoboJoe wrote:
mrwoogieman wrote:But if it erodes the public's confidence in the product, it will become CGC's problem from a bottom line point of view. One of CGC's biggest selling points is the restoration check it performs on each book. Now to hear that CGC can't accurately determine certain subtle trim jobs undermines one of their key selling points.
I agree. It seems like it's already becoming a problem for CGC. I seriously doubt the topic will just disappear, given all the "Slab-haters" that seem to be out there. Remembering that the whole process is still a judgment call and subject to human error seems to escape some of the people out there. If CGC can keep it to an acceptable minimum, maybe they can afford to buy up any mistakes they make.

mrwoogieman wrote:A loss of confidence in the product is inevitable. Hell, in one sense, a loss of confidence in the product could be a good thing if it gets people less label-centric in their collecting and reduces the price differential in the ultra-high grade market when it's based upon nothing more than .2 variances in assigned grades, oftentimes seemingly without regard to the condition and appearance of the book.
I've thought that as long as this wasn't the only type of collector out there then the back-issue market was better off with more diversity of collectors than less. As long as it doesn't swing too far either way we should be cool. For every "9.8 only guy" there should be a "vg just to have 'em" guy, IMO.
The problem with CGC is that they give on opinoin on the grading, but the restoration is supposed to be a statement of fact. No color touch is a fact, this book is a 9.8 is an opinion..we pay for both when you get something slabbed, but one is either true or it isnt...you pay for that information.

But if restoration is undetectable, then the fact is qualified to something along the lines of "there's no restoration that we can detect." Color touch is currently pretty easy; trimming and pressing seem the current hot topics.

It does bring up an interesting threshold: At what point does a restoration check end? Should all checks be carried out on a microscopic level? I think that would run up the cost on getting a book graded.

X-O HoboJoe · Post by **X-O HoboJoe** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:57 am

I guess the flip side would be "If you can't detect it, is it even restoration at all?" This is one of the big questions in the issue of "pressing."

Peter Parker · Post by **Peter Parker** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 12:19 pm

DawgPhan · Post by **DawgPhan** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 12:21 pm

X-O HoboJoe wrote:I guess the flip side would be "If you can't detect it, is it even restoration at all?" This is one of the big questions in the issue of "pressing."

Well that might be an issue for pressing but not for trimming..the book is forever altered with trimming. Pressing I dont know...it is a sticky subject, but what cgc needs to do is create higres scans of all of the books they grade that are over a certain dollar amount. No one is trimming a spawn 1 but you need to start recording scans of these pedigreed books and everything else...now I dont know how they can compare the book agaist the scan and still maintain that check book is grade by itself with no prior knowledge.

I guess you could hire some college kid to look at scans all day and give a yes or no..I dont really have a solution, but i know that something needs to happen.

X-O HoboJoe · Post by **X-O HoboJoe** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 12:58 pm

Given their track record, CGC's probably working on some way to fix this. I still think it's mainly a problem of shady dealers who are doing whatever they can to defraud both CGC and the buyers of HG key books everywhere. Technology will get better and make it easier to catch this kinda crap (hopefully).

I think the most important lesson I've taken away from this mess is don't buy anything from Jason Ewert.

X-O HoboJoe · Post by **X-O HoboJoe** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 12:59 pm

Peter Parker wrote:

DawgPhan · Post by **DawgPhan** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 1:46 pm

oh and I got my first cgc book today in the mail...it is kinda neat..I have never even so much as held one of these books...I dont know that I will be starting on that 9.6 set anytime soon though.

X-O HoboJoe · Post by **X-O HoboJoe** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 2:20 pm

DawgPhan wrote:oh and I got my first cgc book today in the mail...it is kinda neat..I have never even so much as held one of these books...I dont know that I will be starting on that 9.6 set anytime soon though.

Well? What did you get? Fess up! Tell us about your journey to the Dark Slab!

DawgPhan · Post by **DawgPhan** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 2:23 pm

X-O HoboJoe wrote:
DawgPhan wrote:oh and I got my first cgc book today in the mail...it is kinda neat..I have never even so much as held one of these books...I dont know that I will be starting on that 9.6 set anytime soon though.
Well? What did you get? Fess up! Tell us about your journey to the Dark Slab!

harby 2 9.6...it is a prize for the raffle so I probably will not be keeping it...unless no one wants it...then I dont know.. I did just scan ebay for some cheap slabs, but didnt really see any...guy had some interesting ASMs graded and starting at $.99 but they had a reserve and the shipping was $10.00 for priority for the first one and $3.50 after that...I passed...the high price of shipping I could have dealt with, but no the reserve..

whetteon · Post by **whetteon** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:59 pm

X-O HoboJoe wrote:Given their track record, CGC's probably working on some way to fix this. I still think it's mainly a problem of shady dealers who are doing whatever they can to defraud both CGC and the buyers of HG key books everywhere. Technology will get better and make it easier to catch this kinda crap (hopefully).

I think the most important lesson I've taken away from this mess is don't buy anything from Jason Ewert.

When you build a better mouse trap, there is also someone trying to make a better mouse. Their will ALWAYS be someone defrauding or attempting to defraud CGC on a weekly time table. Do we take it to the microscopic level? You bet we do. Eventually we want the mouse trap to be so good that it takes more money then you get back from making a better mouse...

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 8:55 pm

Peter Parker wrote:Actually, I don't think it's the same book

VERY similar in various specifics, but I personally believe they are two different copies.

It's the same exact book. The dimensions of the stain are exactly the same on "both" books.

Come on.

You personally believe, PP, that they are two different books because you have spoken loudly and longly about CGC's inability to make a mistake.

Therefore, you have a personal stake in the books being different.

They're not.

CGC missed it, and there are frauds and cheats out there willing to exploit this knowledge...and likely already have, dozens of times over.

Oops.

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 8:58 pm

Peter Parker wrote:Actually Dawg, after reading the entire thread and talking to SB today, I believe it IS the same book.

It happens, Doug Schmell owned this book, that is good enough for me but it happens, these are human beings doing comic book grading for goodness sakes

If someday for example, CGC ends up grading a million comic books, would anyone here have a real problem with say...1% of them having some king of "quality issue" regarding grading I would not. For those of you that would i say... such standards are simply unrealistic

ps

dead on with Ewert...the guy smells, and always has books that look way too good to be true

Heh.

Ignore my last post.

slym2none · Post by **slym2none** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 8:59 pm

Might wanna head over to TO - I believe PP got the boot from the boss here.

-slym

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 9:15 pm

slym2none wrote:Might wanna head over to TO - I believe PP got the boot from the boss here.

-slym

Yeah, I know, which is why I was replying...he can't reply back.

slym2none · Post by **slym2none** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 10:10 pm

Oh. Oh! Oooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhh.........

-slym

Chuck · Post by **Chuck** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 12:15 am

ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:
slym2none wrote:Might wanna head over to TO - I believe PP got the boot from the boss here.

-slym
Yeah, I know, which is why I was replying...he can't reply back.

Hey Zeph,

Good to see you back.