Book of Death: Legends of the Geomancer

[erwinrafael]

[quote="erwinrafaelI would like to know if there is a reader here, not somebody who buys books as investments, who would shell out the money for this book.

Me. I don't buy these books for investments. I buy them because I love the Valiant Universe, and love the stories. I would gladly head to a local LCS and arrange a deal with them to get LotG, if I wasn't already anticipating that Ed will be throwing something together.

Just curious, how much do you think this is going to cost someone?[/quote]

For me in the Philippines, given that returnable means that my LCS would still pay for shipping costs for unsold Book of Death issues?

Enough to feed my family for five days.

[Keith]

[quote="erwinrafael]I would like to know if there is a reader here, not somebody who buys books as investments, who would shell out the money for this book.

Me. I don't buy these books for investments. I buy them because I love the Valiant Universe, and love the stories. I would gladly head to a local LCS and arrange a deal with them to get LotG, if I wasn't already anticipating that Ed will be throwing something together.

Just curious, how much do you think this is going to cost someone?

For me in the Philippines, given that returnable means that my LCS would still pay for shipping costs for unsold Book of Death issues?

Enough to feed my family for five days.[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]
Ugh... I started a chain of sloppy HTML quoting... sorry about that.

Anyway, do they normally kick back the costs of returning items to the customers?

[erwinrafael]

Ugh... I started a chain of sloppy HTML quoting... sorry about that.

Anyway, do they normally kick back the costs of returning items to the customers?

Based on how the variants for returnable Unity issues were priced. Yes. And I can not blame them, because only hardcore VEI fans buy the VEI books. No matter how many copies you put on the shelf, except if it is a clear jumping on point, like a renumbered issue. The loyal buyers here have pull lists, so they (we) rarely buy things based on what we see on the shelf.

I think a poster earlier (I am too lazy to go back the threads to find who he/she is) have pointed out that returnable items mean squat to retailers outside the US and the UK because the retailers will still pay shipping costs when they return items.

[paradise]

Ed is adamant that this is a brilliant idea and that there's no downside for anyone.

Not exactly true. I only said there is no downside to retailers. For one thing, digital readers are screwed on this. I can't deny this. But i also say this, digital is not supposed to be a 100% replacement for paper, it's an additional way to get content, not a replacement way. I know a few of you see it as replacement due to desire not to have paper copies, or limited availability. but it's not meant to be. Marvel and DC do not publish 100% of their products online, nor do 100% of the only products they publish get printed on paper. You just assume that it would be, but it does not HAVE to be. it's another example of not understanding how things work and assuming that it would be tailored to your individual desire.

Look at GNs. whenever people say that they are switching to trades, I always warn them that they can NOT indefinitely expect every issue to be put out in trade. It's not possible and does not make sense. Any publisher doing that will eventually start losing a ton of money on trying to sustain that library. That's why titles are restarted, to produce new #1 Gn volumes, so that they don't have to print Daredevil vol 11 GN.

This market is not really built on the model of everything being able to be available to everyone in every possible way. some of the fans just expect it that way and get disappointed.

[paradise]

http://www.polygon.com/2015/4/16/842887 ... ten-months
This reminded me of this promotion. It's definitely becoming a trend. A trend I do not like.

Now, I don't know how many of you have participated in MTG, but I have been selling it since 1994, Year ONE of the product coming out. We sold Beta and Unlimited for regular price, sold Legends packs when they came out, and where there for all the good and bad times. We still do tournaments that get 80 people participating, so it would be pretty safe to say that we know this product (i just wanted to preface what I am about to say with this).

SO, The situation with MTG actually illustrates why this new geomancer idea is brilliant. When WOTC (Wizards of the coast) changed the rules, the look of the cards, brought some old cards back, banned others, they *SQUEE* off a pretty big portion of the players. many vowed not to play anymore, there was a dip in player participation even. 2 years later, MTG was doing 3x as well as they were before the changes and even now, many years later, that decision to change the game to attract new players, those who were not hardcore gamers, is now accepted as the best thing they have ever done. BTW, most of the players who cried about not liking it, continued playing. Many have done really well in life because they stayed involved in MTG, I personally know a few guys who played as kids in my store for years, and now make millions on the Poker Pro Tour. I can give you names and if you watch, you will know who they are.

Ballzy decisions always look flawed to a few people who are worried about their situation (nothing wrong with it btw) but do not understand that the publisher needs to play a long game.

[lorddunlow]

http://www.polygon.com/2015/4/16/842887 ... ten-months
This reminded me of this promotion. It's definitely becoming a trend. A trend I do not like.

Now, I don't know how many of you have participated in MTG, but I have been selling it since 1994, Year ONE of the product coming out. We sold Beta and Unlimited for regular price, sold Legends packs when they came out, and where there for all the good and bad times. We still do tournaments that get 80 people participating, so it would be pretty safe to say that we know this product (i just wanted to preface what I am about to say with this).

SO, The situation with MTG actually illustrates why this new geomancer idea is brilliant. When WOTC (Wizards of the coast) changed the rules, the look of the cards, brought some old cards back, banned others, they *SQUEE* off a pretty big portion of the players. many vowed not to play anymore, there was a dip in player participation even. 2 years later, MTG was doing 3x as well as they were before the changes and even now, many years later, that decision to change the game to attract new players, those who were not hardcore gamers, is now accepted as the best thing they have ever done. BTW, most of the players who cried about not liking it, continued playing. Many have done really well in life because they stayed involved in MTG, I personally know a few guys who played as kids in my store for years, and now make millions on the Poker Pro Tour. I can give you names and if you watch, you will know who they are.

Ballzy decisions always look flawed to a few people who are worried about their situation (nothing wrong with it btw) but do not understand that the publisher needs to play a long game.

I never said it was or was not going to work out well for them. I just don't like the idea at all. Business is business, but VEI has prided itself on being different from the Big Two. With this move, they show that 1) they aren't and 2) they are ready to play dirty to take their share of the market. (In my opinion.)

[lorddunlow]

Ed is adamant that this is a brilliant idea and that there's no downside for anyone.

Not exactly true. I only said there is no downside to retailers. For one thing, digital readers are screwed on this. I can't deny this. But i also say this, digital is not supposed to be a 100% replacement for paper, it's an additional way to get content, not a replacement way. I know a few of you see it as replacement due to desire not to have paper copies, or limited availability. but it's not meant to be. Marvel and DC do not publish 100% of their products online, nor do 100% of the only products they publish get printed on paper. You just assume that it would be, but it does not HAVE to be. it's another example of not understanding how things work and assuming that it would be tailored to your individual desire.

If you ask me, that's very short-sighted of the industry as a whole. Ebooks are a given now. If a book is not available in ebook format, then that publisher and author are going to lose money. Image keeps whittling away at the big Two's market share, and their digital initiatives are likely very much part of this. (And those digital numbers don't even show up in their market share.)

If VEI continues the kind of promotions like this that make it harder to consume the story, then Image will overtake them as my favorite publisher. Image is definitely 100% about the story - their marketing, their availability, etc. With this move, VEI is becoming less about "story first" and more "business first".

[agent_graves]

I would like to know if there is a reader here, not somebody who buys books as investments, who would shell out the money for this book.

Yes, I would. Because, at the end of the day, I want the whole story. Investment? This book will have little to no, resale value.

[lorddunlow]

I would like to know if there is a reader here, not somebody who buys books as investments, who would shell out the money for this book.

Yes, I would. Because, at the end of the day, I want the whole story. Investment? This book will have little to no, resale value.

I want to buy it. It depends on how much it's going to cost me. I'll read it. I'm just not going to be paying more than $5 for 24 pages.

[Tony_H]

Don't know who else has released a price yet, but Midtown's current price is $34.00 for issue 1.

[Hasmot]

So I just pre-ordered this through Midtown Comics for thirtyfive dollars (yes, i do feel a bit sick inside). It's a lot less than $100.00 on up, but it gets me thinking about how many Books of Death will just be sitting around or needing to be refunded. Maybe Valiant is counting on a bunch of people doing this and getting lots of copies of The Book of Death out there. Fingers crossed to see what the process of obtaining Legends of the Geomancer #2 will be and to see if my order actually comes through.

[lorddunlow]

Worst case scenario for VEI:

Retailers do as some suggest and order enough copies of BoD #1 to obtain a copy of LotG #1 for every one who would have ordered a copy if available as an order all. (Maybe even a few copies for the shelf.)

They sell those to customers (Mark up, cover price, free - whatever, doesn't matter). They have TONS of BoD #1 on the shelf. They sell very few of them and return this massive order of comics to VEI who have to eat the cost of those.

No new customers. *SQUEE* off loyal customers. Aggravated LCS owners. ? financial loss?

Probably not the most likely (IMO, break even/ zero sum is the most likely scenario), but a big risk. This is one of those things where in hindsight when it works well, everyone calls the person/company a genius risk-taker, but when it fails miserably everyone points and says "what the hell were they thinking".

This is not a smart idea. It definitely has the potential to pay off big for VEI, but so does the lottery for those who waste their money buying tickets. Sure, the winners make out big, but they are very very rare.

[paradise]

Worst case scenario for VEI:

Retailers do as some suggest and order enough copies of BoD #1 to obtain a copy of LotG #1 for every one who would have ordered a copy if available as an order all. (Maybe even a few copies for the shelf.)

They sell those to customers (Mark up, cover price, free - whatever, doesn't matter). They have TONS of BoD #1 on the shelf. They sell very few of them and return this massive order of comics to VEI who have to eat the cost of those.

No new customers. *SQUEE* off loyal customers. Aggravated LCS owners. ? financial loss?

Probably not the most likely (IMO, break even/ zero sum is the most likely scenario), but a big risk. This is one of those things where in hindsight when it works well, everyone calls the person/company a genius risk-taker, but when it fails miserably everyone points and says "what the hell were they thinking".

This is not a smart idea. It definitely has the potential to pay off big for VEI, but so does the lottery for those who waste their money buying tickets. Sure, the winners make out big, but they are very very rare.

So, how is that worse than retailers NOT ordering at all. At least this way, hopefully they are somewhat motivated to sell copies that they only paid 80 cents for. If you are a retailer and you paid $2 for a Marvel book that gets you $4 and doesn't need selling (It's Marvel, everyone knows what it is about) and you have a stack of books you paid only 80 cents for, if you are smart, you are talking up the books you make $3.20 on, instead of putting them in the back to wait to return to Diamond.

And I am sure both Diamond and VEI are really aware of the cost of returns (which are really small btw, percentage wise, most stores are not even smart enough to get their money back). Most retailers will choose to keep books they paid so little for.

[erwinrafael]

Is Book of Death really a book that is targeted to new readers that is worth making this ballsy move to? I mean, you would need some sort of background to understand this story as it seems to be a continuation of The Valiant. You do not have your "name" creators attached to it. And it's a story that is about the death of characters, which does not seem to be enticing as a jump-on point for the "new reader" which they are trying to attract.

Ed, being the retailer who seems to grasp this promotion, how much will you charge a VEI customer who would want Legends of the Geomancer?

[jeremycoe]

Things From Another World has this listed at $3.19. Probably an error, but might be worth it to try getting it at that price.

http://www.tfaw.com/Profile/Book-Of-Dea ... 9___480754" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[DirtbagSailor]

So I just pre-ordered this through Midtown Comics...

Thank you.

Just pre-ordered 4 copies.

[DirtbagSailor]

Things From Another World has this listed at $3.19. Probably an error, but might be worth it to try getting it at that price.

http://www.tfaw.com/Profile/Book-Of-Dea ... 9___480754" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ordered a few from them too, on the off chance that price is legit.

[kjjohanson]

http://www.polygon.com/2015/4/16/842887 ... ten-months
This reminded me of this promotion. It's definitely becoming a trend. A trend I do not like.

Now, I don't know how many of you have participated in MTG, but I have been selling it since 1994, Year ONE of the product coming out. We sold Beta and Unlimited for regular price, sold Legends packs when they came out, and where there for all the good and bad times. We still do tournaments that get 80 people participating, so it would be pretty safe to say that we know this product (i just wanted to preface what I am about to say with this).

SO, The situation with MTG actually illustrates why this new geomancer idea is brilliant. When WOTC (Wizards of the coast) changed the rules, the look of the cards, brought some old cards back, banned others, they *SQUEE* off a pretty big portion of the players. many vowed not to play anymore, there was a dip in player participation even. 2 years later, MTG was doing 3x as well as they were before the changes and even now, many years later, that decision to change the game to attract new players, those who were not hardcore gamers, is now accepted as the best thing they have ever done. BTW, most of the players who cried about not liking it, continued playing. Many have done really well in life because they stayed involved in MTG, I personally know a few guys who played as kids in my store for years, and now make millions on the Poker Pro Tour. I can give you names and if you watch, you will know who they are.

Ballzy decisions always look flawed to a few people who are worried about their situation (nothing wrong with it btw) but do not understand that the publisher needs to play a long game.

The point you're missing regarding MTG is that the changes made it more affordable to become a new customer, and VEI's promotion does the opposite.

[agent_graves]

Don't know who else has released a price yet, but Midtown's current price is $34.00 for issue 1.

Wow, I order a lot through Midtown, and they're usually good, price wise. Anyway, I told my lcs that I wanted this, and I let them know that I knew about the heavy discount they would get, so I'm hoping they don't price it for more than $10, will see.

Ps.. They didn't have a problem making sure I got one, and they don't order heavy on Valiant. They bumped up their orders on Bloodshot Reborn (a little) and still sold out by lunch.

[kjjohanson]

Don't know who else has released a price yet, but Midtown's current price is $34.00 for issue 1.

Wow, I order a lot through Midtown, and they're usually good, price wise. Anyway, I told my lcs that I wanted this, and I let them know that I knew about the heavy discount they would get, so I'm hoping they don't price it for more than $10, will see.

Ps.. They didn't have a problem making sure I got one, and they don't order heavy on Valiant. They bumped up their orders on Bloodshot Reborn (a little) and still sold out by lunch.

I buy from Midtown in-store but would never pay near that much for this issue. I'll double-check with one of the managers when I go in this week.

[agent_graves]

Things From Another World has this listed at $3.19. Probably an error, but might be worth it to try getting it at that price.

http://www.tfaw.com/Profile/Book-Of-Dea ... 9___480754" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That's wasup, but, their shipping prices are ridiculous. Although, it'll still be less (overall) than Midtown, so...

[lorddunlow]

Worst case scenario for VEI:

Retailers do as some suggest and order enough copies of BoD #1 to obtain a copy of LotG #1 for every one who would have ordered a copy if available as an order all. (Maybe even a few copies for the shelf.)

They sell those to customers (Mark up, cover price, free - whatever, doesn't matter). They have TONS of BoD #1 on the shelf. They sell very few of them and return this massive order of comics to VEI who have to eat the cost of those.

No new customers. *SQUEE* off loyal customers. Aggravated LCS owners. ? financial loss?

Probably not the most likely (IMO, break even/ zero sum is the most likely scenario), but a big risk. This is one of those things where in hindsight when it works well, everyone calls the person/company a genius risk-taker, but when it fails miserably everyone points and says "what the hell were they thinking".

This is not a smart idea. It definitely has the potential to pay off big for VEI, but so does the lottery for those who waste their money buying tickets. Sure, the winners make out big, but they are very very rare.

So, how is that worse than retailers NOT ordering at all. At least this way, hopefully they are somewhat motivated to sell copies that they only paid 80 cents for. If you are a retailer and you paid $2 for a Marvel book that gets you $4 and doesn't need selling (It's Marvel, everyone knows what it is about) and you have a stack of books you paid only 80 cents for, if you are smart, you are talking up the books you make $3.20 on, instead of putting them in the back to wait to return to Diamond.

And I am sure both Diamond and VEI are really aware of the cost of returns (which are really small btw, percentage wise, most stores are not even smart enough to get their money back). Most retailers will choose to keep books they paid so little for.

Well, that would be worse than NOT ordering more copies at all because, in my hypothetical, they return virtually all the extra copies which would be a net loss for the publisher (It may be small, but still a loss) and the loyal fan base is ticked off and the LCS is less likely to push the product in the future. So, in my opinion, much worse. I did say that scenario is not very likely, but it is still the worse possible scenario. It's a bad scenario.

[lorddunlow]

BTW, I have known about this for a while, and have had conversations with Dinesh and Atom about this. I was very apprehensive in the beginning but they have managed to convince me that this is important to their growth.

I'm using this quote from you Ed, to make a point, so don't think I'm attacking you. You're a great businessman, and I've purchased from you multiple times and will continue to do so. You are an awesome VEI supporter, and I wish upon wish that you had a location in Memphis. (I actually think, after reading through this thread again, that you must be feeling very much attacked when all you are trying to do is defend this promotion because you want it to succeed which is a very honorable thing. I appreciate you remain cordial throughout the discussion.) Having said that:

The fact that the owner of one of the largest VEI supporters in retail was "apprehensive" about this promotion speaks volumes. Both Dino and Atom had to convince you that it is important to their growth. This means that your first response when hearing about it was probably similar to the majority opinion on these boards of rabid VEI fans: "I'm not sure about this..." Some of us are mad (me), some of us are stoked (Elveen), some of us are ambivalent or vacillating in our opinons, but the overwhelming response has been as you put it - "apprehensive".

Now, you've had the luxury of having both the CEO/CCO of the company reassure you as well as the marketing director. Do you think they're going to do the same for every retailer in the US (not to mention the non-US retailers)?

If the rabid fans and the all-in LCS supporter since day one are all "apprehensive" about it, what do you think the response will be from retailers who can't be bothered to order non-big two comics at all? Or from fans of the big two? (or Image?) They won't just be apprehensive - they'll likely order enough to get enough copies to price-gouge the rabid VEI fans who are already all-in and then not even order enough of BoD #2-4 to qualify for enough copies for all of the fans who paid an exorbitant price to receive the first issue.

I agree with you, that the retailers who don't take part in this are idiots. Do you consider most LCS retailers to be astute businessmen/women? (I know the answer to this, as it's something you've ranted about in general before.)

I also understand that VEI needs a better penetration in the market. My shop stopped putting shelf copies up because they didn't sell. They definitely need to do something. I'm just not sure this is that thing.

[tchalla8]

important to their growth.

Important to their growth. If you read between the lines it doesn't at all imply that this means it will also make their existing fans happy. Huge distinction.

Is VEI in so much trouble that they felt it was a risk worth taking? It's hard not to make that assumption.

[jeremycoe]

important to their growth.

Important to their growth. If you read between the lines it doesn't at all imply that this means it will also make their existing fans happy. Huge distinction.

Is VEI in so much trouble that they felt it was a risk worth taking? It's hard not to make that assumption.

Maybe if you didn't know, like pretty much everyone on these boards, that they recently received a HUGE investment and have a movie deal for AT LEAST 5 movies. If you didn't know that then maybe it would be hard not to make that assumption.