Book of Death: Legends of the Geomancer

[jeremycoe]

Things From Another World has this listed at $3.19. Probably an error, but might be worth it to try getting it at that price.

http://www.tfaw.com/Profile/Book-Of-Dea ... 9___480754" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That's wasup, but, their shipping prices are ridiculous. Although, it'll still be less (overall) than Midtown, so...

They only quoted my order something like $3.50 for shipping. Probably depends on how big the order is and where in the country/world you are.

[cray_ws]

That is a bad example because everyone knew who Batman was. I knew about Batman from the 60's tv show reruns and superfriends etc. if nothing else. And I firmly believe the Batman movie did increase readership in the long run. I would not have been interested in and bought into Knightfall if I had not loved Batman in 1989 followed by Batman TAS. Likewise the Death of Superman probably would not have drawn me into comics if I had not seen the Superman Movie.

Before those events and (Unity) I collected baseball cards and mostly ignored the comics on the shelves, though I asked about them occasionally.

So because you were drawn in by Batman media...everyone else did too? No...sorry to say but you're exception to the circumstance. I don't know why, but the fact remains that Batman over course of the last 10 years has had 4 films and animated series, yet the readership continues to bleed.

Lets watch the results of Batman vs Superman film, I bet there's a tiny spike of sales, then drops back down to it's regular bleeding pace. There will be absolutely no growth in a year.

[lorddunlow]

important to their growth.

Important to their growth. If you read between the lines it doesn't at all imply that this means it will also make their existing fans happy. Huge distinction.

Is VEI in so much trouble that they felt it was a risk worth taking? It's hard not to make that assumption.

Maybe if you didn't know, like pretty much everyone on these boards, that they recently received a HUGE investment and have a movie deal for AT LEAST 5 movies. If you didn't know that then maybe it would be hard not to make that assumption.

Yeah. I don't think VEI is in trouble. I do think they don't plan on being lumped into "other publishers" forever in the numbers. They want to be in the top 5 for sure. I don't think they'll be happy settling for a niche market like some of the other publishers VEI battles with for market share month after month.

My concern is that part of the reason why Marvel and DC are the "Big Two" is because they make decisions based primarily on numbers and revenue often to the detriment of the creative side of the equation. I'm very scared that this promotion will be looked upon in the future (when VEI makes it big and there is the Big 3 - or 4 with Image) the point at which VEI started down the dark side.

This is not unique to VEI. Any business becomes "just business" once they reach a certain point. It's the reality of the corporate world. Amazon, Google, etc. etc. have all started out catering to their customers, only to develop more and more questionable business practices over time. I don't see VEI becoming an evil empire overnight, but it does seem like the only way up in business is to step on those who helped you get there.

[tchalla8]

important to their growth.

Important to their growth. If you read between the lines it doesn't at all imply that this means it will also make their existing fans happy. Huge distinction.

Is VEI in so much trouble that they felt it was a risk worth taking? It's hard not to make that assumption.

Maybe if you didn't know, like pretty much everyone on these boards, that they recently received a HUGE investment and have a movie deal for AT LEAST 5 movies. If you didn't know that then maybe it would be hard not to make that assumption.

I knew about it. Which makes a move like this all the more questionable to me. 95% of the moves they make are legit and smart. I just don't happen to think this is one of them.

[cray_ws]

At least they are doing something different. And knowing Dinesh and Co., it's not the last time. The original Valiant crew did a lot of things that were new, and VEI is always trying to go outside the box. This is the first of many ways, I think.

LOL this not an outside the box move....it's pretty much like variant tactic, except this time inside the covers is original story. Stop being a fan, and start looking at your shop as business. You're being hosed by a publisher and you're defending it.

[tchalla8]

At least they are doing something different. And knowing Dinesh and Co., it's not the last time. The original Valiant crew did a lot of things that were new, and VEI is always trying to go outside the box. This is the first of many ways, I think.

LOL this not an outside the box move....it's pretty much like variant tactic, except this time inside the covers is original story. Stop being a fan, and start looking at your shop as business. You're being hosed by a publisher and you're defending it.

Ok that might be a little bit over the top. Ed's a smart guy. He knows what's good for his business and what's not.

[Keith]

At least they are doing something different. And knowing Dinesh and Co., it's not the last time. The original Valiant crew did a lot of things that were new, and VEI is always trying to go outside the box. This is the first of many ways, I think.

LOL this not an outside the box move....it's pretty much like variant tactic, except this time inside the covers is original story. Stop being a fan, and start looking at your shop as business. You're being hosed by a publisher and you're defending it.

Please explain to Ed how he is being hosed.

[lorddunlow]

At least they are doing something different. And knowing Dinesh and Co., it's not the last time. The original Valiant crew did a lot of things that were new, and VEI is always trying to go outside the box. This is the first of many ways, I think.

LOL this not an outside the box move....it's pretty much like variant tactic, except this time inside the covers is original story. Stop being a fan, and start looking at your shop as business. You're being hosed by a publisher and you're defending it.

Ok that might be a little bit over the top. Ed's a smart guy. He knows what's good for his business and what's not.

+1

[cray_ws]

Hmm, I still think the point is missed. Once a retailer orders those 25 (or 50, 100) copies and has them in the store, the idea is that he'll try to promote them, because they are his best margin in the store. All other comics cost him $2 or more. These cost him 80 cents. if they have ANY brain at all, they want to make $3.20 on a $4 book instead of returning it. That's the hope. And that is what makes new readers. so it's not a hot comic, it's a fight for ANY rack space. Most stores don't stock vei at all. This may get them One placing. Which may get them another one as other customers start asking.

LOL that "best margin" is temporary. Are you going suddenly order more Valiant books the next month? Probably not! Penetration is short term and you're taking the brunt of the risk. But keep defending this...you're wonderful VEI supporter.

[jeremycoe]

Hmm, I still think the point is missed. Once a retailer orders those 25 (or 50, 100) copies and has them in the store, the idea is that he'll try to promote them, because they are his best margin in the store. All other comics cost him $2 or more. These cost him 80 cents. if they have ANY brain at all, they want to make $3.20 on a $4 book instead of returning it. That's the hope. And that is what makes new readers. so it's not a hot comic, it's a fight for ANY rack space. Most stores don't stock vei at all. This may get them One placing. Which may get them another one as other customers start asking.

LOL that "best margin" is temporary. Are you going suddenly order more Valiant books the next month? Probably not! Penetration is short term and you're taking the brunt of the risk. But keep defending this...you're wonderful VEI supporter.

What actual risk is there for a retailer in the USA? A loan of a few weeks? Maybe the actual retailer is a little more qualified than you to answer questions on this topic.

[Keith]

[lorddunlow]

Hmm, I still think the point is missed. Once a retailer orders those 25 (or 50, 100) copies and has them in the store, the idea is that he'll try to promote them, because they are his best margin in the store. All other comics cost him $2 or more. These cost him 80 cents. if they have ANY brain at all, they want to make $3.20 on a $4 book instead of returning it. That's the hope. And that is what makes new readers. so it's not a hot comic, it's a fight for ANY rack space. Most stores don't stock vei at all. This may get them One placing. Which may get them another one as other customers start asking.

LOL that "best margin" is temporary. Are you going suddenly order more Valiant books the next month? Probably not! Penetration is short term and you're taking the brunt of the risk. But keep defending this...you're wonderful VEI supporter.

If they are 100% returnable, how is this a risk? A hassle, maybe, but it's really a no-brainer for a retailer who thinks they might be able to sell even 10 extra copies. That's almost pure profit.

Let's not dilute this thread with an illogical argument. I've agreed with almost all of Ed's points so far. He's a good businessman who believes in a product. I have a problem with the nature of this promotion, not with Ed.

We already went on forever about collector vs. reader. That conversation had very little merit (and I even participated in it for some reason ), but this one is just pointless. Ed isn't going to do anything that doesn't make his store money. His argument comes more from frustration that not all retailers will take advantage of this promotion which really is a win-win for RETAILERS and VEI. I don't believe it is a win for fans at all - that is the crux of my issue.

[paradise]

Stop being a fan, and start looking at your shop as business. You're being hosed by a publisher and you're defending it.

Lol, I don't I need to respond to this, do I?

[cray_ws]

Now, I don't know how many of you have participated in MTG, but I have been selling it since 1994, Year ONE of the product coming out. We sold Beta and Unlimited for regular price, sold Legends packs when they came out, and where there for all the good and bad times. We still do tournaments that get 80 people participating, so it would be pretty safe to say that we know this product (i just wanted to preface what I am about to say with this).

SO, The situation with MTG actually illustrates why this new geomancer idea is brilliant. When WOTC (Wizards of the coast) changed the rules, the look of the cards, brought some old cards back, banned others, they *SQUEE* off a pretty big portion of the players. many vowed not to play anymore, there was a dip in player participation even. 2 years later, MTG was doing 3x as well as they were before the changes and even now, many years later, that decision to change the game to attract new players, those who were not hardcore gamers, is now accepted as the best thing they have ever done. BTW, most of the players who cried about not liking it, continued playing. Many have done really well in life because they stayed involved in MTG, I personally know a few guys who played as kids in my store for years, and now make millions on the Poker Pro Tour. I can give you names and if you watch, you will know who they are.

Ballzy decisions always look flawed to a few people who are worried about their situation (nothing wrong with it btw) but do not understand that the publisher needs to play a long game.

Educate me....how is "changed the rules, the look of the cards, brought some old cards back, banned others." the same thing as incentively scarce original story. You seem to put collectors and readers in the same boat. MTG is designed to be a "collectible" card game, where in comic books are meant to be read, the collecting is an afterthought.

[cray_ws]

Stop being a fan, and start looking at your shop as business. You're being hosed by a publisher and you're defending it.

Lol, I don't I need to respond to this, do I?

You don't. I'm not forcing you to.

[paradise]

that "best margin" is temporary. Are you going suddenly order more Valiant books the next month? Probably not! Penetration is short term and you're taking the brunt of the risk. But keep defending this...you're wonderful VEI supporter.

Have you heard of FOC? One week after #1 comes out, retailers get to adjust their orders up or down, and then the #2 issue comes out 3 weeks later. So if the retailer sells a bunch of free #1s he can easily adjust up to fill demand.

Btw regarding your other statement, I opened my first store 21 years ago when I was 23 years old. And my second store 4 years ago. I am one of top 5 percent of Diamond accounts and, maybe, top 1 percent Valiant sales. So if you think I speak as a fan, you are a little off

[Paul Nolan]

Personally, I still think its ludicrously stupid that a company is limiting the readership of a tie in to potentially 4% of the main series.

you'll miss out on buyers who are completionists and don't think they'll get the whole Book of Death story.
you'll lose loyal readers, because they're annoyed they're being excluded hold of the book
You'll create friction in comic shops if some normal Valiant readers see someone else get the book over them.

yay, comic shops can make some extra cents per issue, but is the cost to good will really worth it....?

Valiant really need to rethink this dis-incentive.

[agent_graves]

Things From Another World has this listed at $3.19. Probably an error, but might be worth it to try getting it at that price.

http://www.tfaw.com/Profile/Book-Of-Dea ... 9___480754" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That's wasup, but, their shipping prices are ridiculous. Although, it'll still be less (overall) than Midtown, so...

They only quoted my order something like $3.50 for shipping. Probably depends on how big the order is and where in the country/world you are.

I recently ordered a Phil Noto variant, and a couple issue's of Lazarus, that I needed. I usually go UPS Ground, normally, $8-10 dollars, TFAW wanted like $13-14, I went with the cheaper shipping $3-4, that was a big mistake, USPS, just shoved the books into the tight *SQUEE* little mailbox, instead of leaving it at the office.

Lesson Learned!!

[BugsySig]

that "best margin" is temporary. Are you going suddenly order more Valiant books the next month? Probably not! Penetration is short term and you're taking the brunt of the risk. But keep defending this...you're wonderful VEI supporter.

Have you heard of FOC? One week after #1 comes out, retailers get to adjust their orders up or down, and then the #2 issue comes out 3 weeks later. So if the retailer sells a bunch of free #1s he can easily adjust up to fill demand.

Btw regarding your other statement, I opened my first store 21 years ago when I was 23 years old. And my second store 4 years ago. I am one of top 5 percent of Diamond accounts and, maybe, top 1 percent Valiant sales. So if you think I speak as a fan, you are a little off

Every post you make makes less sense.

[hunter_peterson]

Now, I don't know how many of you have participated in MTG, but I have been selling it since 1994, Year ONE of the product coming out. We sold Beta and Unlimited for regular price, sold Legends packs when they came out, and where there for all the good and bad times. We still do tournaments that get 80 people participating, so it would be pretty safe to say that we know this product (i just wanted to preface what I am about to say with this).

SO, The situation with MTG actually illustrates why this new geomancer idea is brilliant. When WOTC (Wizards of the coast) changed the rules, the look of the cards, brought some old cards back, banned others, they *SQUEE* off a pretty big portion of the players. many vowed not to play anymore, there was a dip in player participation even. 2 years later, MTG was doing 3x as well as they were before the changes and even now, many years later, that decision to change the game to attract new players, those who were not hardcore gamers, is now accepted as the best thing they have ever done. BTW, most of the players who cried about not liking it, continued playing. Many have done really well in life because they stayed involved in MTG, I personally know a few guys who played as kids in my store for years, and now make millions on the Poker Pro Tour. I can give you names and if you watch, you will know who they are.

Ballzy decisions always look flawed to a few people who are worried about their situation (nothing wrong with it btw) but do not understand that the publisher needs to play a long game.

Educate me....how is "changed the rules, the look of the cards, brought some old cards back, banned others." the same thing as incentively scarce original story. You seem to put collectors and readers in the same boat. MTG is designed to be a "collectible" card game, where in comic books are meant to be read, the collecting is an afterthought.

He's saying it was a drastic change in tactics that put the needs of the publisher over the desires of the fanbase. It's not about pleasing the fans, it's about getting product into new hands and on new shelves. Within the US it essentially means that they'll be giving retailers a risk-free way to see how much Valiant they can sell. That, and the loyal fans will likely find a way to access this series anyway, and more retailers being involved will facilitate that.

It's not the business of it that is controversial but the way that it clearly isn't about the fanbase that many find irksome.

[paradise]

He's saying it was a drastic change in tactics that put the needs of the publisher over the desires of the fanbase. It's not about pleasing the fans, it's about getting product into new hands and on new shelves. Within the US it essentially means that they'll be giving retailers a risk-free way to see how much Valiant they can sell. That, and the loyal fans will likely find a way to access this series anyway, and more retailers being involved will facilitate that.

It's not the business of it that is controversial but the way that it clearly isn't about the fanbase that many find irksome.

MHM, yes. Sometimes a publisher has to make a long term game changer move, despite the fanbase. Fanbase can really slow the publisher down if they try to appease them in every way. Stuns growth.

[Tim]

He's saying it was a drastic change in tactics that put the needs of the publisher over the desires of the fanbase. It's not about pleasing the fans, it's about getting product into new hands and on new shelves. Within the US it essentially means that they'll be giving retailers a risk-free way to see how much Valiant they can sell. That, and the loyal fans will likely find a way to access this series anyway, and more retailers being involved will facilitate that.

It's not the business of it that is controversial but the way that it clearly isn't about the fanbase that many find irksome.

MHM, yes. Sometimes a publisher has to make a long term game changer move, despite the fanbase. Fanbase can really slow the publisher down if they try to appease them in every way. Stuns growth.

Think DC Comics' New 52. Long time DC nuts like myself and Ian House completely alienated and dropping all or almost all DC titles. Readers who were intimidated by DC's long history came on board in numbers (perhaps) high enough to justify losing folks like me.

It works. Not sure how well or how sustainable, but "sustainable" and "modern comics industry" don't really get used too much in conjunction with each other much.

[erwinrafael]

He's saying it was a drastic change in tactics that put the needs of the publisher over the desires of the fanbase. It's not about pleasing the fans, it's about getting product into new hands and on new shelves. Within the US it essentially means that they'll be giving retailers a risk-free way to see how much Valiant they can sell. That, and the loyal fans will likely find a way to access this series anyway, and more retailers being involved will facilitate that.

It's not the business of it that is controversial but the way that it clearly isn't about the fanbase that many find irksome.

MHM, yes. Sometimes a publisher has to make a long term game changer move, despite the fanbase. Fanbase can really slow the publisher down if they try to appease them in every way. Stuns growth.

Think DC Comics' New 52. Long time DC nuts like myself and Ian House completely alienated and dropping all or almost all DC titles. Readers who were intimidated by DC's long history came on board in numbers (perhaps) high enough to justify losing folks like me.

It works. Not sure how well or how sustainable, but "sustainable" and "modern comics industry" don't really get used too much in conjunction with each other much.

But is Book of Death the game changer that could bring in new readers if you flood the shelves with this book? I really can not see it. It's not a fresh beginning, it has several characters, it is the sequel to a story started in a different mini series, and it does not have big name creators. You will alienate some of your loyal readers to try to get new readers with this book? Is the New 52 really the proper analogy here?

[Paul Nolan]

He's saying it was a drastic change in tactics that put the needs of the publisher over the desires of the fanbase. It's not about pleasing the fans, it's about getting product into new hands and on new shelves. Within the US it essentially means that they'll be giving retailers a risk-free way to see how much Valiant they can sell. That, and the loyal fans will likely find a way to access this series anyway, and more retailers being involved will facilitate that.

It's not the business of it that is controversial but the way that it clearly isn't about the fanbase that many find irksome.

MHM, yes. Sometimes a publisher has to make a long term game changer move, despite the fanbase. Fanbase can really slow the publisher down if they try to appease them in every way. Stuns growth.

Think DC Comics' New 52. Long time DC nuts like myself and Ian House completely alienated and dropping all or almost all DC titles. Readers who were intimidated by DC's long history came on board in numbers (perhaps) high enough to justify losing folks like me.

It works. Not sure how well or how sustainable, but "sustainable" and "modern comics industry" don't really get used too much in conjunction with each other much.

DCs market share against Marvel drastically lowered.

[cray_ws]

Hmm, I still think the point is missed. Once a retailer orders those 25 (or 50, 100) copies and has them in the store, the idea is that he'll try to promote them, because they are his best margin in the store. All other comics cost him $2 or more. These cost him 80 cents. if they have ANY brain at all, they want to make $3.20 on a $4 book instead of returning it. That's the hope. And that is what makes new readers. so it's not a hot comic, it's a fight for ANY rack space. Most stores don't stock vei at all. This may get them One placing. Which may get them another one as other customers start asking.

LOL that "best margin" is temporary. Are you going suddenly order more Valiant books the next month? Probably not! Penetration is short term and you're taking the brunt of the risk. But keep defending this...you're wonderful VEI supporter.

If they are 100% returnable, how is this a risk? A hassle, maybe, but it's really a no-brainer for a retailer who thinks they might be able to sell even 10 extra copies. That's almost pure profit.

Let's not dilute this thread with an illogical argument. I've agreed with almost all of Ed's points so far. He's a good businessman who believes in a product. I have a problem with the nature of this promotion, not with Ed.

We already went on forever about collector vs. reader. That conversation had very little merit (and I even participated in it for some reason ), but this one is just pointless. Ed isn't going to do anything that doesn't make his store money. His argument comes more from frustration that not all retailers will take advantage of this promotion which really is a win-win for RETAILERS and VEI. I don't believe it is a win for fans at all - that is the crux of my issue.

Okay...so the word I should've used is hassle. Ed is being hosed because he has to hassle with whether or not he has to ship returnable books, as opposed to just filling his usual order.

Stop saying Ed is a smart guy, that doesn't nullify any argument. He might know the ins and out of his little shop, but it is not to be mistaken as business sense. I sure in hell wouldn't want the publisher to push any unwanted hassle on me so they can make a quick buck. We already agreed in this thread that vast majority don't even order enough Valiant books! They are going deal with bigger hassle than Ed.

I'm really sorry, I might come off like real jerk to Ed. He's a nice guy and all, but this is not good business.