Is VEI dead or dying?

ian_house · Post by **ian_house** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 3:19 am

Elveen wrote:
leonmallett wrote:
Elveen wrote:...and lastly, I should be involved in the re-launch.... but again that is just my opinion.

The more I think about it, it seems like a natural fit. Really a history teacher is just a storyteller with elbow patches on his jacket (gosh I really want one of those).

Maybe we can start a grass roots effort. Kinda like a street team.

and plastic pocket protectors! Never can be too careful with those pens.

leonmallett · Post by **leonmallett** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 3:56 am

ian_house wrote:
Elveen wrote:
leonmallett wrote:
Elveen wrote:...and lastly, I should be involved in the re-launch.... but again that is just my opinion.

The more I think about it, it seems like a natural fit. Really a history teacher is just a storyteller with elbow patches on his jacket (gosh I really want one of those).

Maybe we can start a grass roots effort. Kinda like a street team.
and plastic pocket protectors! Never can be too careful with those pens.

Looks like we have another member for Team: Elveen here. Welcome aboard Ian!

leonmallett · Post by **leonmallett** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:43 am

From a prior post by Elveen, and sorry to Christian for truncating the post, but there were a couple of key points I wanted to consider while maintaining my monthly resurrection of this thread as promised:

Elveen wrote:In sports they say, "Winning cures everything."

IMO, that is where VEI is. Once they put out some books, all will be good. Until then, not so much.

This is the point for the comic books fans of the charaters in a nutshell - having the properties and essentially doing nothing of note in a year or more is just not helpful in shaping the view of VEI in what will probably be their core fanbase.

....-I would think about getting out something quick. Now it needs to be quality and not just junk.... sounds like a good quick fix would be more reprinting. I would stay away from the $25 HC. Do $10 TPBs or even cheaper individual books (pre-unis?)

I don't think this would really work as a model. Collected editions need to build on an ongoing publishing schedule or be an archiving service in general for comic books. It requires a sufficient market. With no new product it simply doesn't appear there is much appetite for VALIANT. New product could turn that around.

However, reprinting books that are 15+ years old is no more the way fowards. It would not be an economical way for a new audience to engage with old material.

VEI will need a largely new audience if the HC sales numbers are an indicator, which means new material since building on assumptions of enthusiasm for 'old' stories for which the potential new audience doesn't have a connection just doesn't work.

...And lastly, I should be involved in the re-launch.... but again that is just my opinion.

Still supporting you on this mate!

So more broadly:
- It looks as though nothing really came of 'generating' new 'pamphlets' (ugly term for comic books which smacks not of a fan perspective, but a purely business-minded view, but that is just biased opinion) that was promised; I am sorry but VEI seem to be shifting blame/responsibility to Jim Shooter in that they cite him as the cause for them not acquiring the GK3 license. Well given that DH were clear about their intentions to publish new GK3 material before the employment of Jim Shooter, and they were in the driving seat as an existing/current publisher of the GK material (archives), then VEI's position looks weak in this regard to me. It looks like a smokescreen to cover up their inability or refusal to really become a comic book publisher. They had seven or eight moths of working with jim Shooter with nothing to show for it in terms of publishing comic books? That really does not add up to me.
- VEI have a new publisher - so what is Walter Black's position now?
- Will VEI become a comic book publisher any time soon? That I really doubt. Any capital tied up in the business is basically making a loss for the investors month-on-month, since there is no product coming out to generate revenue and no apparent licensing deals on the horizon now. Do you know what my suspicion is now? I would not be surprised if VEI sought to dispose of their VALIANT assets by way of sale within the next twelve months. Time will tell of course.

Phantom.. · Post by **Phantom..** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:02 am

They had seven or eight moths of working with jim Shooter with nothing to show for it in terms of publishing comic books

I still have alot of faith in the company. I think they are working to get stuff done, weather it is publishing or not I don't know.

Valiant published a few mario books before the launch of the Valiant 'Universe'. How long was Jim preparing the universe before the publishing of comics? He could of started even before the launch of Valiant as a company, as in before Mario brothers.

Who knows what VE1 has from Jim for 7/8 months work. You don't pay for nothing.

Just putting in my 2cents. Not into slag matches.

Hey these guys who own VE1 may have day jobs aswell. Gee how hard is it to organise Valiant fan Project books? ~ and they are already published.

Keep the faith.

cshepard81 · Post by **cshepard81** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:10 am

leonmallett wrote:Do you know what my suspicion is now? I would not be surprised if VEI sought to dispose of their VALIANT assets by way of sale within the next twelve months. Time will tell of course.

The sooner the better.

myron · Post by **myron** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:23 am

cshepard81 wrote:
leonmallett wrote:Do you know what my suspicion is now? I would not be surprised if VEI sought to dispose of their VALIANT assets by way of sale within the next twelve months. Time will tell of course.
The sooner the better.

where has Walter been in all of this anyway...

xodacia81 · Post by **xodacia81** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:24 am

myron wrote:
cshepard81 wrote:
leonmallett wrote:Do you know what my suspicion is now? I would not be surprised if VEI sought to dispose of their VALIANT assets by way of sale within the next twelve months. Time will tell of course.
The sooner the better.
where has Walter been in all of this anyway...

That might be the most important question of all.

xodacia81 · Post by **xodacia81** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:27 am

Phantom. wrote:They had seven or eight moths of working with jim Shooter with nothing to show for it in terms of publishing comic books

I still have alot of faith in the company. I think they are working to get stuff done, weather it is publishing or not I don't know.

Valiant published a few mario books before the launch of the Valiant 'Universe'. How long was Jim preparing the universe before the publishing of comics? He could of started even before the launch of Valiant as a company, as in before Mario brothers.

Who knows what VE1 has from Jim for 7/8 months work. You don't pay for nothing.

Just putting in my 2cents. Not into slag matches.

Hey these guys who own VE1 may have day jobs aswell. Gee how hard is it to organise Valiant fan Project books? ~ and they are already published.

Keep the faith.

I look at two things. One, they had an EIC and two, they have a PUBLISHER. If the point of the company was NOT to publish comics, then these are two positions they would not have. This is why I say the debate isn't over whether they plan to publish comics. My guess is they wanted to do it all, announced what they felt they could and find themselves in their current situation. I just want new books.

leonmallett · Post by **leonmallett** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:51 am

xodacia81 wrote:I look at two things. One, they had an EIC and two, they have a PUBLISHER. If the point of the company was NOT to publish comics, then these are two positions they would not have. This is why I say the debate isn't over whether they plan to publish comics. My guess is they wanted to do it all, announced what they felt they could and find themselves in their current situation. I just want new books.

You can give anyone a job title you want - it doesn't necessarily follow that the positions wholly match the title. To be a publisher they need material to publish.

You make some fair points but consider this. We are looking at year three or year five of the VEI business plan. I say year three if we believe the VEI website:

In 2007, a group of investment professionals and media executives acquired all the rights to the Valiant Comics library from Acclaim Entertainment’s estate and formed Valiant Entertainment.

I say year five because the sale was seemingly in 2005: newsarama story link

Obviously the VIP issues factor in here. But:

dino wrote:http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=141085

...The conflict began soon after Valiant Entertainment acquired all rights to the Valiant Comics library of characters from videogame publisher Acclaim Entertainment’s estate in June 2005...

Thanks to both their own decisions (not employing an EiC until December 2008, apparently) and external factors (the VIP shenanigans for example, slowed things down and were beyond their control) they have yet to publish ongoing material.

If the newsarama article is to be believed, the VEI bid for the VALIANT assets was $925,000 and listed Ashok Kothari, Jason Kothari, and Chandra Shamdasani as the final winning bidders in lieu of John Taddeo. Now the money may have been their own, or they may have had backing to raise this capital.

The point is that we are several years on (four on balance of events, coming up to year five of the business plan), and for the cost of buying those assets and running a business in the intervening years, there have been only three products to show for the capital outlay.

So we are three or five years into a business plan that has yielded mediocre sales on three hardcovers. Looking at it in those terms there is obviously no sign of profit at this time, nor any chance that any substantial amount of the initial investment has been recouped. To meet that initial investment and to cover it fully, I believe would require sales in the region of one to two of million-plus discrete comic books (or pamphlets). For an independent publisher I expect that would require a minimum of 100-200+ (probably a lot more) discrete issues given the relative performance of independent publishers in recent years. Now this is all pure speculation of course, but I believe not wholly wide of the mark. The point is that the initial investment would require a lot of comic book sales alone (reduced for sales of collected editions), let alone looking at investing in the staff and other requirements to publish more new material. All the while VEI has basically one saleable asset: the Rights, Trade Marks, Service Marks, Registrations associated with the VALIANT characters. This can be realised through sale/disposal of those assets or through licensing.

Kothari, Kothari and Shamdasani may have acted out of a purported fondness for VALIANT. If the money (capital) is their own they are free to do and act as they desire. If the purchase was backed by other investors then there can be little doubt those investors will want and expect a return. Where is the return three or five years in?

I have had a concern for several months that new comic books were never the priority. Others have shared this concern. To be honest other media licensing is the only realistic medium term solution to gaining an adequate return on the initial investment.

They (VEI) should not be faulted for their focus, except for two reasons perhaps. Firstly, if they sold products to people who expected that in buying those products they would soon see more products they desired (ie new comic books). Secondly, other media licensing makes little sense without either a vehicle to showcase the properties (well this may be the purpose of the hardcovers); or a sufficiently widely recognised property (Turok and Shadowman presumably have some residual recognition following the video game successes of both); or a sufficiently interested other party (which in the world of Hollywood development hell is not always as clear-cut as at first it seems). Thus trying to secure licensing as a primary business concern seems a risky and particularly unpredictable proposition.

We are either three or five years into the business plan. VEI are in the position that they are not a comic book publisher, nor are they a successful licensor to other media. Beyond either of those I fail to see what their business really is now. The only real actions of note appear to be litigious more than anything. They are adrift in terms of relations with some creators with past VALIANT associations (Jim Shooter, Bob Layton, Janet Jackson and others I believe), with only Bob Hall coming out publicly in favour really.

All of these things considered I struggle to see where they (VEI) go next. I doubt they will get the damages they seek from Jim Shooter since I ultimately would be surprised if he has three million dollars to readily give up.

If they are into year five of their investment with no return of substance, then all I can see going foward is some means of trying to minimise their losses, which is why I can imagine they are more likely to try to dispose of their assets within the next twelve months rather than become a regular publisher of new comic book material (except perhaps as a means to position themselves as a 'publisher' to potential buyers).

StarBrand · Post by **StarBrand** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:25 pm

iggy101us wrote:
leonmallett wrote:
Elveen wrote:...and lastly, I should be involved in the re-launch.... but again that is just my opinion.

With proven results in getting CF sketches, Elveen would be awesome in Marketing and PR.

They need someone who is.

400yrs · Post by **400yrs** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:16 pm

You've brought up some very interesting points. When you think of the situation in terms of "business plans" (which are so often 3 or 5YPs) then this all becomes even more sad. A definite FAIL in all regards.

There's no way that they envisioned being where they are right now when they spent nearly 1M 5 years ago.

Further, they couldn't possibly be where thought they would be 3 years after the VIP debacle (which was preventable if they knew what they were doing). If they are satisfied with "how far" they have come, then that is sad as all they have to show is an option which nothing will come of and 3 hardcovers with 24 pages of new material.

I know that some people say "stuff takes a long time", but an investment of this nature should have SOMETHING to show for itself after at least 2 years and should be well on its way to paying itself off by 5 years.

leonmallett wrote:If they are into year five of their investment with no return of substance, then all I can see going foward is some means of trying to minimise their losses, which is why I can imagine they are more likely to try to dispose of their assets within the next twelve months rather than become a regular publisher of new comic book material (except perhaps as a means to position themselves as a 'publisher' to potential buyers).

Although I'm not sure of the 12 months, I think this is fairly likely as well. They'd be better off to license the characters out or just sell outright. Leave the comics and movie stuff to people who know what they are doing and to people with some business savy.

slym2none · Post by **slym2none** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:16 am

Please let me win the lottery please let me win the lottery please let me win the lottery.....

-slym (would gladly pay $1.5 million for these to get where they need to be)

leonmallett · Post by **leonmallett** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:17 am

slym2none wrote:Please let me win the lottery please let me win the lottery please let me win the lottery.....

-slym (would gladly pay $1.5 million for these to get where they need to be)

Please let slym win the lottery...

slym2none · Post by **slym2none** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:24 am

Elveen will definitely have a job under my version of VALIANT (all caps, all the time!)

-slym

leonmallett · Post by **leonmallett** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:30 am

slym2none wrote:Elveen will definitely have a job under my version of VALIANT (all caps, all the time!)

-slym

We'll put those elbow patches to good use!

I don't even undertsand what that comment really means....

slym2none · Post by **slym2none** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:33 am

leonmallett wrote:
slym2none wrote:Elveen will definitely have a job under my version of VALIANT (all caps, all the time!)

-slym
We'll put those elbow patches to good use!

I don't even undertsand what that comment really means....

Don't worry, someone will put it in the out-of-context quotes thread.....

-slym

ian_house · Post by **ian_house** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 3:48 am

Even if they did start releasing do you think they would be able to release monthly? Month in month out?

leonmallett · Post by **leonmallett** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:52 am

ian_house wrote:Even if they did start releasing do you think they would be able to release monthly? Month in month out?

If they have the will, the capital and the creators they can do it.

Whether they have all three is open to debate.

leonmallett · Post by **leonmallett** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:54 am

If VEI commence any other future legal actions they could have as many or more such actions as they have published items.

Are there many companies that could claim to have initiated more legal events than they have product releases?

tmcneil82 · Post by **tmcneil82** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 9:43 am

slym2none wrote:Please let me win the lottery please let me win the lottery please let me win the lottery.....

-slym (would gladly pay $1.5 million for these to get where they need to be)

Not even considering that there would be new books out, can you imagine how cool from a collectors standpoint owning the characters would be?

Would trump that bloodshot 0 error anyday

Draco · Post by **Draco** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:10 am

tmcneil82 wrote:
slym2none wrote:Please let me win the lottery please let me win the lottery please let me win the lottery.....

-slym (would gladly pay $1.5 million for these to get where they need to be)
Not even considering that there would be new books out, can you imagine how cool from a collectors standpoint owning the characters would be?

Would trump that bloodshot 0 error anyday

I would imagine pretty much anyone on this board would buy the rights and ownership to all and everything Valiant if they won the lottery or had rich parents, in fact i think thats exactly what happened with the current owners isnt it?

leonmallett · Post by **leonmallett** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:14 am

Draco wrote:
tmcneil82 wrote:
slym2none wrote:Please let me win the lottery please let me win the lottery please let me win the lottery.....

-slym (would gladly pay $1.5 million for these to get where they need to be)
Not even considering that there would be new books out, can you imagine how cool from a collectors standpoint owning the characters would be?

Would trump that bloodshot 0 error anyday
I would imagine pretty much anyone on this board would buy the rights and ownership to all and everything Valiant if they won the lottery or had rich parents, in fact i think thats exactly what happened with the current owners isnt it?

Ouch.

Has slym been giving you lessons on cruel zingers?

Draco · Post by **Draco** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:19 am

leonmallett wrote:
Draco wrote:
tmcneil82 wrote:
slym2none wrote:Please let me win the lottery please let me win the lottery please let me win the lottery.....

-slym (would gladly pay $1.5 million for these to get where they need to be)
Not even considering that there would be new books out, can you imagine how cool from a collectors standpoint owning the characters would be?

Would trump that bloodshot 0 error anyday
I would imagine pretty much anyone on this board would buy the rights and ownership to all and everything Valiant if they won the lottery or had rich parents, in fact i think thats exactly what happened with the current owners isnt it?
Ouch.

Has slym been giving you lessons on cruel zingers?

I just thought after all thats been said recently and with some old threads bought up again etc etc, that i hadnt been touched on really.

tmcneil82 · Post by **tmcneil82** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:40 am

Would explain a lot. I really wouldnt mind buying it (if the whole, me having money thing were part of the equation) and trying to continue on the stories right where unity left off. I'd even start the numbering scheme back up from the end of unity.

Would be a lot of fun, even if you did take a loss for the first year or so, i imagine with quality stories, you would eventually break even. Hopefully.

Draco · Post by **Draco** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:51 am

tmcneil82 wrote:Would explain a lot. I really wouldnt mind buying it (if the whole, me having money thing were part of the equation) and trying to continue on the stories right where unity left off. I'd even start the numbering scheme back up from the end of unity.

Would be a lot of fun, even if you did take a loss for the first year or so, i imagine with quality stories, you would eventually break even. Hopefully.

i think if money werent an issue even disgruntled former empolyees would could be persuaded to come back as i beleive they say everyone has a price right.

I like the idea of continuing the numbers from Unity, that would be an idustry first to igoner and re do.
Although on that note, im unsure how many books that were put out immediateley after Unity were still Shooter books?