Lesser Titles???

[ManofTheAtom]

I wasn't aware they were doing an A&D book but it is irrelevant as I was using it as an example of a property they owned and it was in the context of what to put out first if previous performance wasn't an issue, which it obviously is or they wouldn't have done Harbinger first.

And I said they should make decisions on what to publish based on their own business plan and not based on your ideas because you obviously don't have a clue what general consumers want in a retail market.

You're still not paying attention.

VEI can't based their busines plan on what people were buying 13 years ago.

Readers today may not be at all aware of concepts like Timewalker, Armorines, and HARD Corps, which lets VEI present it to them in the same way as they would X-O and Harbinger.

The whole popularity idea comes from readers are aware from the concepts from 13 years ago. To everyone else, they are unknown properties.

If VEI publishes them in a format different from what they've done so far, then they are telling people that those concepts are not worthy of the hard cover treatment like the ones they've releases so far.

[Drift]

I wasn't aware they were doing an A&D book but it is irrelevant as I was using it as an example of a property they owned and it was in the context of what to put out first if previous performance wasn't an issue, which it obviously is or they wouldn't have done Harbinger first.

And I said they should make decisions on what to publish based on their own business plan and not based on your ideas because you obviously don't have a clue what general consumers want in a retail market.

You're still not paying attention.

VEI can't based their busines plan on what people were buying 13 years ago.

Readers today may not be at all aware of concepts like Timewalker, Armorines, and HARD Corps, which lets VEI present it to them in the same way as they would X-O and Harbinger.

The whole popularity idea comes from readers are aware from the concepts from 13 years ago. To everyone else, they are unknown properties.

If VEI publishes them in a format different from what they've done so far, then they are telling people that those concepts are not worthy of the hard cover treatment like the ones they've releases so far.

It is you who is not paying attention, clearly.

Nothing I have said is based on the performance of books 13 years ago, it is based on my knowledge of working as a comic book retailer.

I work with the target audience on a daily basis and I know from the sale of other books, not just Valiant, that consumers are more likely to buy a more affordable TPB than a more expensive hardcover.

If someone is more likely to buy a more affordable TPB, it makes more sense from a business perspective, to provide them with a product in the format they want to buy.

The only reference I have made to the way things performed in the past have been to point out to you that VEI have already put out books on the basis of how they performed in the past.

I also said that in the end it is down to VEI to make their own decision based on their own plan and based on the idea that they want to sell as much product as possible in order to make as much money as possible and not on the basis of what a small group of people on an internet forum have to say.

A lot of the stuff you talk about on the board hinges on what you want to see happen and you repeatedly neglect to take into account that in the end it comes down to what VEI want in order to be successful.

[Chiclo]

I wasn't aware they were doing an A&D book but it is irrelevant as I was using it as an example of a property they owned and it was in the context of what to put out first if previous performance wasn't an issue, which it obviously is or they wouldn't have done Harbinger first.

And I said they should make decisions on what to publish based on their own business plan and not based on your ideas because you obviously don't have a clue what general consumers want in a retail market.

You're still not paying attention.

VEI can't based their busines plan on what people were buying 13 years ago.

Readers today may not be at all aware of concepts like Timewalker, Armorines, and HARD Corps, which lets VEI present it to them in the same way as they would X-O and Harbinger.

The whole popularity idea comes from readers are aware from the concepts from 13 years ago. To everyone else, they are unknown properties.

If VEI publishes them in a format different from what they've done so far, then they are telling people that those concepts are not worthy of the hard cover treatment like the ones they've releases so far.

My lack of faith might be disturbing.

My gut feeling, as a regular consumer of new comics, trade paper backs and hardcovers - which will specifically be the target audience - will be that most people would not be ready to drop $20 or $25 on an attractive Timewalker or Armorines hardcover. $3 on a new comic with an interesting cover or something I have heard talked about well by my comic reading friends? Sure. $4? Maybe. $20? Not likely. Most of these people don't remember Timewalker or Armorines. Of the four guys that work at my local comic book store, one definitely would remember both titles, one definitely would not and the other two might remember at least one of the two. Archer and Armstrong? 3 out of 4, definitely. Magnus, Solar, Rai, Harbinger and such? 3 out of 4 again, definitely (Jonathan doesn't really care unless it says "Titans" or "Donna Troy" on the cover).

Maybe in time. But those hardcovers would need to wait until the market is reminded of the second tier Valiant books.

[ManofTheAtom]

I wasn't aware they were doing an A&D book but it is irrelevant as I was using it as an example of a property they owned and it was in the context of what to put out first if previous performance wasn't an issue, which it obviously is or they wouldn't have done Harbinger first.

And I said they should make decisions on what to publish based on their own business plan and not based on your ideas because you obviously don't have a clue what general consumers want in a retail market.

You're still not paying attention.

VEI can't based their busines plan on what people were buying 13 years ago.

Readers today may not be at all aware of concepts like Timewalker, Armorines, and HARD Corps, which lets VEI present it to them in the same way as they would X-O and Harbinger.

The whole popularity idea comes from readers are aware from the concepts from 13 years ago. To everyone else, they are unknown properties.

If VEI publishes them in a format different from what they've done so far, then they are telling people that those concepts are not worthy of the hard cover treatment like the ones they've releases so far.

It is you who is not paying attention, clearly.

Nothing I have said is based on the performance of books 13 years ago, it is based on my knowledge of working as a comic book retailer.

I work with the target audience on a daily basis and I know from the sale of other books, not just Valiant, that consumers are more likely to buy a more affordable TPB than a more expensive hardcover.

If someone is more likely to buy a more affordable TPB, it makes more sense from a business perspective, to provide them with a product in the format they want to buy.

The only reference I have made to the way things performed in the past have been to point out to you that VEI have already put out books on the basis of how they performed in the past.

I also said that in the end it is down to VEI to make their own decision based on their own plan and based on the idea that they want to sell as much product as possible in order to make as much money as possible and not on the basis of what a small group of people on an internet forum have to say.

A lot of the stuff you talk about on the board hinges on what you want to see happen and you repeatedly neglect to take into account that in the end it comes down to what VEI want in order to be successful.

Your logic is still flawed.

Were is the logic in VEI selling Harbinger, X-O Manowar, and Archer & Armstrong hardcovers for 25 dollars SRP and then sell Timewalker, Armorines, and HARD Corps for 10 dollars SRP trades? That would only ensure that that the latter trio would sell MORE than the former trio.

Since there is no difference whatsoever from one to the other today, given that the market is different, VEI could release all of them on the same standard format.

Yes, releasing them in a cheap format ensures higher sales, yet they haven't done that. They've introduced the format they want to use, and there is no reason to think that they would change it for Timewalker, HARD Corps, or Armorines.

[Chiclo]

Were is the logic in VEI selling Harbinger, X-O Manowar, and Archer & Armstrong hardcovers for 25 dollars SRP and then sell Timewalker, Armorines, and HARD Corps for 10 dollars SRP?

Since there is no difference whatsoever from one to the other today, given that the market is different, VEI could release all of them on the same standard format.

Yes, releasing them in a cheap format insures higher sales, yet they haven't done that. They've introduced the format they want to use, and there is no reason to think that they would change it for Timewalker, HARD Corps, or Armorines.

I'd say there is a big difference between especially Harbinger and Timewalker, Armorines and HARD Corps. I don't remember Timewalker, Armorines or HARD Corps 1 or 0 selling for $100+ in the last year.

X-O Manowar 1 to 7 is still pre-Unity and a full set will command $20 or so on the open market which would dwarf the 99 cents that a 1 - 7 set of the others would command.

[Drift]

I wasn't aware they were doing an A&D book but it is irrelevant as I was using it as an example of a property they owned and it was in the context of what to put out first if previous performance wasn't an issue, which it obviously is or they wouldn't have done Harbinger first.

And I said they should make decisions on what to publish based on their own business plan and not based on your ideas because you obviously don't have a clue what general consumers want in a retail market.

You're still not paying attention.

VEI can't based their busines plan on what people were buying 13 years ago.

Readers today may not be at all aware of concepts like Timewalker, Armorines, and HARD Corps, which lets VEI present it to them in the same way as they would X-O and Harbinger.

The whole popularity idea comes from readers are aware from the concepts from 13 years ago. To everyone else, they are unknown properties.

If VEI publishes them in a format different from what they've done so far, then they are telling people that those concepts are not worthy of the hard cover treatment like the ones they've releases so far.

It is you who is not paying attention, clearly.

Nothing I have said is based on the performance of books 13 years ago, it is based on my knowledge of working as a comic book retailer.

I work with the target audience on a daily basis and I know from the sale of other books, not just Valiant, that consumers are more likely to buy a more affordable TPB than a more expensive hardcover.

If someone is more likely to buy a more affordable TPB, it makes more sense from a business perspective, to provide them with a product in the format they want to buy.

The only reference I have made to the way things performed in the past have been to point out to you that VEI have already put out books on the basis of how they performed in the past.

I also said that in the end it is down to VEI to make their own decision based on their own plan and based on the idea that they want to sell as much product as possible in order to make as much money as possible and not on the basis of what a small group of people on an internet forum have to say.

A lot of the stuff you talk about on the board hinges on what you want to see happen and you repeatedly neglect to take into account that in the end it comes down to what VEI want in order to be successful.

Your logic is still flawed.

Were is the logic in VEI selling Harbinger, X-O Manowar, and Archer & Armstrong hardcovers for 25 dollars SRP and then sell Timewalker, Armorines, and HARD Corps for 10 dollars SRP?

Since there is no difference whatsoever from one to the other today, given that the market is different, VEI could release all of them on the same standard format.

Yes, releasing them in a cheap format insures higher sales, yet they haven't done that. They've introduced the format they want to use, and there is no reason to think that they would change it for Timewalker, HARD Corps, or Armorines.

They have introduced it in a format that they know will please existing fans and guarantee that people will start talking about Valiant again.

It would be stupid of them not to generate an interest in their product especially with so much good stuff out there to contend with.

Fans are the best form of advertising in existence and VEI are lucky in that respect because they have already got an existing fan base who are certain to buy new products. Building anticipation by putting out some quality books is a good move because it starts the ball rolling without having to spend thousands of dollars on advertising.

The hardcover books exist mainly for existing fans who already have a lot of the original product. It gives them a taste of the way things were while introducing them to the new Valiant.

I would love a complete run of everything in HC format and I know a lot of the guys on the board would but we are the existing fanbase and we are the minority in this situation. I agree that they need to keep putting out high quality to maintain what they already have but they also need to look ahead to how they are going to pick up new business in order to turn the Valian fans into the majority.

Joe Average that comes in off the streets looking for something different to read, generally doesn't want to spend a large hit for a book so it would be crazy not to give him what he wants, an affordable book that he can pick up with what he has in his pocket. As I said before, it would be insane not to give him what he wants. To turn regular people into fans you have to cater to what they want. That is how to stay successful.

The first wave HCs are great but they need to put out TPBs in order to pull in new readers. I think an HC followed by a TPB release for the first wave with the second wave as TPBs would be a good way of going about this.

[ManofTheAtom]

I wasn't aware they were doing an A&D book but it is irrelevant as I was using it as an example of a property they owned and it was in the context of what to put out first if previous performance wasn't an issue, which it obviously is or they wouldn't have done Harbinger first.

And I said they should make decisions on what to publish based on their own business plan and not based on your ideas because you obviously don't have a clue what general consumers want in a retail market.

You're still not paying attention.

VEI can't based their busines plan on what people were buying 13 years ago.

Readers today may not be at all aware of concepts like Timewalker, Armorines, and HARD Corps, which lets VEI present it to them in the same way as they would X-O and Harbinger.

The whole popularity idea comes from readers are aware from the concepts from 13 years ago. To everyone else, they are unknown properties.

If VEI publishes them in a format different from what they've done so far, then they are telling people that those concepts are not worthy of the hard cover treatment like the ones they've releases so far.

It is you who is not paying attention, clearly.

Nothing I have said is based on the performance of books 13 years ago, it is based on my knowledge of working as a comic book retailer.

I work with the target audience on a daily basis and I know from the sale of other books, not just Valiant, that consumers are more likely to buy a more affordable TPB than a more expensive hardcover.

If someone is more likely to buy a more affordable TPB, it makes more sense from a business perspective, to provide them with a product in the format they want to buy.

The only reference I have made to the way things performed in the past have been to point out to you that VEI have already put out books on the basis of how they performed in the past.

I also said that in the end it is down to VEI to make their own decision based on their own plan and based on the idea that they want to sell as much product as possible in order to make as much money as possible and not on the basis of what a small group of people on an internet forum have to say.

A lot of the stuff you talk about on the board hinges on what you want to see happen and you repeatedly neglect to take into account that in the end it comes down to what VEI want in order to be successful.

Your logic is still flawed.

Were is the logic in VEI selling Harbinger, X-O Manowar, and Archer & Armstrong hardcovers for 25 dollars SRP and then sell Timewalker, Armorines, and HARD Corps for 10 dollars SRP?

Since there is no difference whatsoever from one to the other today, given that the market is different, VEI could release all of them on the same standard format.

Yes, releasing them in a cheap format insures higher sales, yet they haven't done that. They've introduced the format they want to use, and there is no reason to think that they would change it for Timewalker, HARD Corps, or Armorines.

They have introduced it in a format that they know will please existing fans and guarantee that people will start talking about Valiant again.

It would be stupid of them not to generate an interest in their product especially with so much good stuff out there to contend with.

Fans are the best form of advertising in existence and VEI are lucky in that respect because they have already got an existing fan base who are certain to buy new products. Building anticipation by putting out some quality books is a good move because it starts the ball rolling without having to spend thousands of dollars on advertising.

The hardcover books exist mainly for existing fans who already have a lot of the original product. It gives them a taste of the way things were while introducing them to the new Valiant.

I would love a complete run of everything in HC format and I know a lot of the guys on the board would but we are the existing fanbase and we are the minority in this situation. I agree that they need to keep putting out high quality to maintain what they already have but they also need to look ahead to how they are going to pick up new business in order to turn the Valian fans into the majority.

Joe Average that comes in off the streets looking for something different to read, generally doesn't want to spend a large hit for a book so it would be crazy not to give him what he wants, an affordable book that he can pick up with what he has in his pocket. As I said before, it would be insane not to give him what he wants. To turn regular people into fans you have to cater to what they want. That is how to stay successful.

The first wave HCs are great but they need to put out TPBs in order to pull in new readers. I think an HC followed by a TPB release for the first wave with the second wave as TPBs would be a good way of going about this.

The standard practice, as you very well know being a retailer, is to do a hardcover and then do a tpb reprint of the same material.

What VEI might very well end up doing is releasing tpb versions not of Timewalker, HARD Corps, and Armorines but of Archer & Armstrong, X-O Manowar, and Harbinger.

They could very well do the first volumes of each series as hcs and then do the rest of the series as tpbs (like Marvel has done in the past with Captain America, in which some stories they released in hcs - that were later done as tpbs - and others that were done solely as tpbs).}

The entry product will never be the hc or the tpb, it will always be the monthly series due to being cheaper (3 USD as opposed to 10 or 25).

[ManofTheAtom]

I'd say there is a big difference between especially Harbinger and Timewalker, Armorines and HARD Corps. I don't remember Timewalker, Armorines or HARD Corps 1 or 0 selling for $100+ in the last year.

X-O Manowar 1 to 7 is still pre-Unity and a full set will command $20 or so on the open market which would dwarf the 99 cents that a 1 - 7 set of the others would command.

That is assuming that you could find them in the first place.

[Chiclo]

I'd say there is a big difference between especially Harbinger and Timewalker, Armorines and HARD Corps. I don't remember Timewalker, Armorines or HARD Corps 1 or 0 selling for $100+ in the last year.

X-O Manowar 1 to 7 is still pre-Unity and a full set will command $20 or so on the open market which would dwarf the 99 cents that a 1 - 7 set of the others would command.

That is assuming that you could find them in the first place.

http://www.ebay.com

[Dr. Solar]

The entry product will never be the hc or the tpb, it will always be the monthly series due to being cheaper (3 USD as opposed to 10 or 25).

WRONG.

With so many people "waiting for the trade" these days, the entry point is often the first volume in a series of trade paperbacks.

Here are the series that I got into from buying the first trade as opposed to the issues:

Preacher
Fables
Y The Last Man
Walking Dead
Invincible
Conan
Starman
Daredevil
Avengers
Captain America
Iron Fist
Runaways
Identity Crisis
Final Crisis
Flash


This is off the top of my head. I might remember more if I was in front of my bookshelf.

I would say that the number of title I have gotten interested in from buying a trade is about the same as the number of titles i have gotten into from buying issues. I know I'm not the only one either, otherwise trades wouldn't be the HUGE part of the comics industry that they are now.

Times are different. The comic market is different now than it was in 1993. Adapt or die!

[ManofTheAtom]

The entry product will never be the hc or the tpb, it will always be the monthly series due to being cheaper (3 USD as opposed to 10 or 25).

WRONG.

With so many people "waiting for the trade" these days, the entry point is often the first volume in a series of trade paperbacks.

Here are the series that I got into from buying the first trade as opposed to the issues:

Preacher
Fables
Y The Last Man
Walking Dead
Invincible
Conan
Starman
Daredevil
Avengers
Captain America
Iron Fist
Runaways
Identity Crisis
Final Crisis
Flash


This is off the top of my head. I might remember more if I was in front of my bookshelf.

I would say that the number of title I have gotten interested in from buying a trade is about the same as the number of titles i have gotten into from buying issues. I know I'm not the only one either, otherwise trades wouldn't be the HUGE part of the comics industry that they are now.

Times are different. The comic market is different now than it was in 1993. Adapt or die!

And this is the paradoxical aspect of the argument.

Drift argues that since the tpb is cheaper than the hc then people are more likely to buy a tpb than an hc... now ralos .rD suggests that people are more likely to buy a 10-15 dollar trade than a 3 dollar comic.

[Chiclo]

Wait, there's a Final Crisis trade? Already?

The first series I got into after getting it in trade was the Infinity Gauntlet. I think that was in 1993 or 1994.

[Brent]

Wait, there's a Final Crisis trade? Already?

The first series I got into after getting it in trade was the Infinity Gauntlet. I think that was in 1993 or 1994.

Can't go wrong with Thanos or Starlin

[ManofTheAtom]

Wait, there's a Final Crisis trade? Already?

What is this, a Mel Brooks movie?!?!

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[ManofTheAtom]

Wait, there's a Final Crisis trade? Already?

The first series I got into after getting it in trade was the Infinity Gauntlet. I think that was in 1993 or 1994.

Can't go wrong with Thanos or Starlin

U2K, 'nuff said.

[Chiclo]

Wait, there's a Final Crisis trade? Already?

The first series I got into after getting it in trade was the Infinity Gauntlet. I think that was in 1993 or 1994.

Can't go wrong with Thanos or Starlin

U2K, 'nuff said.

U2K was a fitting bookend to AKKLAIM and Valiant.

[ManofTheAtom]

Wait, there's a Final Crisis trade? Already?

The first series I got into after getting it in trade was the Infinity Gauntlet. I think that was in 1993 or 1994.

Can't go wrong with Thanos or Starlin

U2K, 'nuff said.

U2K was a fitting bookend to AKKLAIM and Valiant.

To Acclaim for sure, but for VALIANT? No way.

[Dr. Solar]

INFINITE Crisis. Not FINAL Crisis.

I get all confused in my head.


MotA, VERY FEW people would say, "Wow, a $25 hardcover of an old series that wasn't that well liked when it came out! I want THAT!"

Also, very few people would say, "Well, since this is a $10 trade, and not a $25 hardcover, it must not be that good, so I won't buy it".

Reality is calling, MotA, and they want you back. They say you owe them some back rent paypment.

[Zaphod]

The message that VEI would be sending if they did that would be that the properties are of lesser value than the ones they are releasing in hardcovers.

VEI has to handle all their properties equally, not based on how a no longer existing market responded to them over a decade ago.

I know you are going to try and twist this into some "I just want Marvel-lite" crap but do you think Marvel treats Nomad the same as they do Wolverine?

It is simple economics. If you can go out and purchase A&A #0-6 for $10 or you can pay $30 for a HC that looks really pretty and has a 8 page all new story....you are going to have to decide if the extra money is worth it.

If I had the money, I certainly would buy it but I am a hardcore mark for the books. Since I most likely don't, I will be taking a pass on this next HC.

also, your referencing what occurred with X-Men is good, but misplaced. They essentially took the team that had already existed, changed it nearly completely after near 10 years of inactivity and re-released new stories by a new creative team. Not HC, prestige format reprints.

So what they did with X-Men there was pretty much what happend with V2 and the Acclaim books. I can't believe you are advocating that, but there it is...plain as day.

[ManofTheAtom]

INFINITE Crisis. Not FINAL Crisis.

I get all confused in my head.


MotA, VERY FEW people would say, "Wow, a $25 hardcover of an old series that wasn't that well liked when it came out! I want THAT!"

Also, very few people would say, "Well, since this is a $10 trade, and not a $25 hardcover, it must not be that good, so I won't buy it".

Reality is calling, MotA, and they want you back. They say you owe them some back rent paypment.

And there in lies the misconception.

Are you living in the 90's? It's 2008, it's been 13 years since those comics were published.

There's this thing called kids, some whom were born during those 13 years and and others who grew up from being 7 years old to 20 year old people and in between that never read those comics when they came out.

It's possible that they might like them, for a variety of reasons.

[ManofTheAtom]

The message that VEI would be sending if they did that would be that the properties are of lesser value than the ones they are releasing in hardcovers.

VEI has to handle all their properties equally, not based on how a no longer existing market responded to them over a decade ago.

I know you are going to try and twist this into some "I just want Marvel-lite" crap but do you think Marvel treats Nomad the same as they do Wolverine?

It is simple economics. If you can go out and purchase A&A #0-6 for $10 or you can pay $30 for a HC that looks really pretty and has a 8 page all new story....you are going to have to decide if the extra money is worth it.

If I had the money, I certainly would buy it but I am a hardcore mark for the books. Since I most likely don't, I will be taking a pass on this next HC.

also, your referencing what occurred with X-Men is good, but misplaced. They essentially took the team that had already existed, changed it nearly completely after near 10 years of inactivity and re-released new stories by a new creative team. Not HC, prestige format reprints.

So what they did with X-Men there was pretty much what happend with V2 and the Acclaim books. I can't believe you are advocating that, but there it is...plain as day.

It's a different market. Today's market skews more toward the collected editions, so it makes sense for VEI to do the hcs.

Had Nomad and Wolverine not been printed for over a decade, then Marvel might try to launch them based on the merits of the individual concepts, not on reader's perspective from a decade earlier.

[Zaphod]

So VEI should decide what they publish based on a popularity contest?

That's how we ended up with a goat one shot and a goat action figure, because the goat was the most popular character Nicieza had, then he whined to Wizard that no one was buying Turok.

oh god I hope so. This isn't about preference, this is about dollars and cents. If they simply reprint every brand they own and all of the old stories in hopes that people will buy it, we'll be looking at a new bankruptcy pretty quick here.

[ManofTheAtom]

So VEI should decide what they publish based on a popularity contest?

That's how we ended up with a goat one shot and a goat action figure, because the goat was the most popular character Nicieza had, then he whined to Wizard that no one was buying Turok.

oh god I hope so. This isn't about preference, this is about dollars and cents. If they simply reprint every brand they own and all of the old stories in hopes that people will buy it, we'll be looking at a new bankruptcy pretty quick here.

If their business plan were based on popularity alone instead of how to exploit their properties then they wouldn't print anything since by the time the line died none of the properties were considered "popular" anymore.

[Dr. Solar]

INFINITE Crisis. Not FINAL Crisis.

I get all confused in my head.


MotA, VERY FEW people would say, "Wow, a $25 hardcover of an old series that wasn't that well liked when it came out! I want THAT!"

Also, very few people would say, "Well, since this is a $10 trade, and not a $25 hardcover, it must not be that good, so I won't buy it".

Reality is calling, MotA, and they want you back. They say you owe them some back rent paypment.

And there in lies the misconception.

Are you living in the 90's? It's 2008, it's been 13 years since those comics were published.

There's this thing called kids, who were born during those 13 years and grew up into 13-20 year old people that never read those comics when they came out.

It's possible that they might like them, for a variety of reasons.

Can you name a series that wasn't well liked when it came out, but 15 years later became a hit?

I'm not talking about titles that got slow starts like Ultimate Spider-Man, or indy title that started tiny and got much bigger like Grendel or TNMT, but series that ran and got cancelled due to low sales (and generally lower quality), and are now regarded much better.

Darkhawk?
Sleepwalker?

Any other dozens of series from 15 years ago?

My point here is that yours is an unrealistic expectation.

[Chiclo]

It's possible that they might like them, for a variety of reasons.

That's not a gamble I'd advise the good people of VEI to take.